From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Jan  9 14:35:33 PST 1996
Article: 19373 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazism
Date: 9 Jan 1996 03:25:03 -0500
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In article <4c55fn$4sf@news.enter.net>,
Yale F. Edeiken  wrote:
[a user asked]
>>  I've heard that the Talmud teaches that a man should rape one's own 
>>  daughter at the age of three. Then the child is a virgin again at 14-15. 
>>  This sounds very absurd and I don't think it's even near a part of the 
>>  truth, but I still wonder, where do nazists get these 
>>  information-arguments?

    One of them lies, and the rest parrot it.  I've never heard the 
"should rape one's own daughter" formulation before, though.  The Talmud 
does make it easy to tell these lies because it is not organized at all 
as one would expect.  Rather than listing an act and then listing all the 
possible penalties for that act in one place, the Talmud lists a penalty 
and talks about when the penalty is and isn't applied.  Tractate 
_Sanhedrin_ talks about death penalty matters; _Makkoth_ deals with the 
penalty of lashes, and _Kerithoth_ deals with "extirpation," death by 
heavenly action.

>	There was an extended discussion of this about six months ago.
>If you check with McVay he might have archived the decisions.  The passage
>in the Talmud is evidently a discussion of whether, after a girl is raped, 
>she can be considered a virgin when she reaches marriagable age.

    The usual canard is that the out-of-context phrase, "When a man lies
with a little girl less than three, it is nothing" (Kethuboth 11b) means
that it is perfectly fine.  However, the whole discussion has to do with
the circumstances under which a girl is considered to have lost her
virginity and thus be ineligible for the entitlement of a virgin bride
upon marriage; there is also a discussion in the same passage of being
"injured by a piece of wood."  The phrase which in its literal translation
means "it is nothing" is a Talmudic idiom for "it has no bearing on this
matter" - in this example, "it has no bearing on her status as a virgin."

    As I recall, the sentence ends with an idiomatic expression meaning,
"because the hymen can heal" (implying she can still show the "tokens of
virginity" mentioned in the Torah).  I don't know that this is medically
true, but that's what Talmudic law holds.  A man who rapes an unmarried
woman of any age, or seduces an unbetrothed minor, owes monetary damages;
if she is over three, he can be forced to marry her.  (Sounds strange, 
but you must remember that virgin brides were prized, and this expedient 
guaranteed the support of a woman who would otherwise be considered 
"damaged goods.")

    A father who rapes his daughter less than three is given forty lashes
(but this is discussed in tractate _Makkoth_), and is considered liable to
be struck down by heaven (tractate _Kerithoth_).  Due to a technicality,
the human-imposed death penalty for incest is only applied when the
daughter is at least three years and a day (as discussed in _Sanhedrin_;
hence the Jew-haters claim the Talmud permits it despite the fact that a
reading of _Makkoth_ shows that there are no age-related exceptions listed
for the penalty of forty lashes). 

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From epaus.island.net!kmcvay Sat Jul 15 14:15:24 1995
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From: kmcvay@epaus.island.net (Ken McVay)
Subject: talmud
To: kmcvay@epaus.island.net (Ken McVay)
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From: hkatz@news.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Talmud OKs Child Molestation
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In article ,
Benjamin Johnson (bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu) writes:

	More disturbing than the assertion that "When a grown-up man has
	had intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when a
	girl is less than this (three years old-footnote tells us), it
	is as if one puts the finger into the eye, tears come to the eye
	again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under
	three years." (Kethuboth 11b)...

Most disturbing in Mr. Johnson's rabid campaign of libel and distortion
directed against the Talmud, is his complete and utter disregard for
the fact that I have already refuted these same charges, which he made
in an earlier post entitled "Talmudic Teachings."  Since he could not
answer my refutations then, he has instead chosen to ignore them and
repeat his original lies and distortions all over again.

To repeat myself:  The passage above does not say that the "grown-up
man" is sinless in having intercourse with a three year old girl, but
that the girl is not considered to be "damaged goods!"  In other words,
she is still a virgin.  This may be based on erroneous biological
assumptions, but it was composed over 1500 years ago, when science was,
to say the very least, primitive.  The punishment for the "grown-up man"
is not discussed in this section of the Talmud.


	...is that of Sanhedrin 54b-55a:

	"Pederasty with a child below 9 years old is not deemed as
	pederasty with a child above that....(a footnote informs us-
	"At nine years a male attains sexual matureness" and speaks of
	"the sexual matureness of woman, which is reached at the age of
	three") only he who is able to engage in sexual intercourse,
	may, as the *PASSIVE* subject of pederasy throw guilt [upon the
	active offender]."

Once again, the argument focuses on the child involved in a sordid
crime.  The question is at what age can the passive acquiescence to a
sex crime be considered innocent.  The Rabbis believed that males reach
sexual maturity at age nine and females at age three.  Again, the worst
this can accuse them of is ignorance of biology, which was general at
that period of time.  The Rabbis also felt that once a person is
sexually mature, they must struggle and resist any unwanted sexual
advances -- mere passivity is not then considered to be entirely
innocent, as the child is then capable of enjoying illicit sexual
pleasure.  Let me reiterate that at most the Rabbis are guilty of being
as ignorant of biology as any other people of the period.  But only a
Jew hater like Mr. Johnson could construe this passage to give license
to Jewish adults to go around raping their neighbors' children.


	We are also told in San. 55b, "A maiden aged three years and a
	day may be aquired in marriage by coition."

That is quite true, theoretically!  In actual practice, however, this
never happens, and Mr. Johnson cannot provide a single instance where
it has happened as evidence that this passage has corrupted anyone who
has studied it!


	'Nuff said.

Not quite!  Mr. Johnson has never explained why he never responded to
my posts which have already demolished these "citations!"  Nor has he
explained why he repeats his baseless libels when he cannot defend them
from my analyses!

--
Harry Katz

Let thy house be open wide as a refuge, and let the poor be cordially
received within thy walls.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

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