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Shofar FTP Archive File: camps/auschwitz/crematoria/porous-pillars


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Feb 27 07:56:19 PST 1996
Article: 25253 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'porous pillar'
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:08:29 -0700
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In article <4gr8f3$hhg@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

[snip]

>    I have to imagine also that the explosion selectivelly remove any
>    trace of the porous pilars but not the other ones. 

Mr. Beaulieu, the only selective removing here is YOUR selectivity in
regards to what you choose to recall about what I post! 

To refresh your memory:

"...[O]n November 25, 1944, Himmler ordered the demolition of the
Auschwitz gas chambers and crematoria. The same day, work began on
dismantling the installations of crematorium II at Birkenau. After the
furnaces, the chimney, the roof, and all the installations in the walls
[i.e. the Zyklon-B introduction devices] of the crematorium building were
taken apart, openings were made for dynamite charges to blow up the entire
structure....

"...On December 1, 1944, a special group , intially comprising 100 women
prisoners, began dismantling crematorium III. On December 5, 50 more women
were incorporated into the squad. At the same time, another squad of 50
women was formed. Its task was to remove the ashes from the incineration
pits, fill them in, and cover them with turf.[1]

As you can see, Mr. Beaulieu, the introduction devices were dismantled and
removed prior to the demolition of Kremas II and III. Of course, my
origional post stated this, yet you seem to feel free to "ignore" this and
offer some assinine innuendo about the "explosion selectivelly remove[ing]
any trace[s] of the porous pil[l]ars but not the other ones." 

>    I saw a text from Mazal and I'll quote those 3 lines:

No, you "saw" text from MY post. I sincerely doubt you read or understood
any of it though, considering your "selective" memory. 

> >take into consideration that the pillars were fastened to the _floor_ and
> >passed _through_ the opening in the ceilings. I would suggest such
> >objections _are_ a bit contentious. (Especially so if you were assuming
> 
>    I'm not sure to understand well here, but if it mean that the concrete
>    part was pull from outside, this is ridicoulous.

Mr. Beaulieu, how can you understand if you do not read what was written?
Do you perhaps just make things up as you go along? 

>    The story is that the pillars were made of concrete, perfored and
>    empty at the center. And that a metallic wire mesh was introduce
>    inside so the Germans were pouring zyklon B from the top and this
>    one was spread into the wire mesh.

Mr. Beaulieu, like most everything you say, this is another half-truth
used to mask a lie. That you can recall three lines from my post and
"conclude" that the introduction "pillars" are made of CONCRETE is,
frankly, bullshit. Let me refresh your memory again here:

In Kremas II and III "Zyklon B was distributed in the gas chamber[s]
through four introduction columns custom-made in the metalwork shops of
the camp. They were shaped like pillars and made of two wire grids with a
moveable core. Cross sections of the pillars, 3m high, formed a square,
each side measuring 70cm. Fastened to the floor, they passed through
openings in the ceiling, ending outside as little chimneys closed with a
concrete cover equiped with two handles. The external grid (made of wire 3
mm thick) formed interstices measuring 45 mm x 45 mm, and eas fastened to
cube-shaped metal scantlings (cross section 50 mm x 10 mm). Interstices of
the external grid--150 mm apart from the internal grid and similarly
fastened--were smaller (25 mm x 25 mm). The two grids served as a screen
for the moveable core that could be introduced through the opening in the
ceiling. The core consisted of a tin prism measuring 150mm x 150 mm at the
cross section. The bottom of the core was flat, and the top was a cone. A
wire mesh with interstices of one sq mm extended from the base of the core
to the base of the cone, and was fastened to a post 25 mm away. The entire
length of the core was covered with tin. When Zyklon B pellets fell onto
the cone, they spread uniformlythroughout the core and stopped at its
lower part. After the gas evaporated, the entire core was removed from the
gas chamber and the used pellets of diatomite were poured out." [2]

>    But the main aspect is the 'selectivity' of the explosion... 

No, Mr. Beaulieu, I think what _really_ is at issue here is the
selectivity of your memory and what you choose to read! 

>    the pillars in the center of crema 3 were broken at the same height, but 
>    the porous pillar were totally destroyed. 

Ah, now we get to the crux of your canard! You have contructed a
fallacious argument based of some idea that the introduction devices were
destroyed in the demolition of the Kremas, while the structural support
pillars were not. 

As we have seen above, Mr. Beaulieu, the introduction devices were
dismantled and removed prior to the demolition of Kremas II and III. Your
"argument" is exposed for what it is: a meritless fiction.

>    I must also add that those porous pillars do not exist on any
>    engineering draw that the germans left behind them. 

And this proves what, exactly? That no such drawing ever exixted? Hardly.
There were many documents the Nazis didn't "leave behind" at Auschwitz and
elsewhere. The Nazis had this thing about Getting Rid Of The Evidence, you
know.

>    Never such a 'proof' was bring in, so I have to assume that the 
>    germans in their design prefered to not draw it. To keep the secret?
>    You are not obligated to mention 'porous pillar' on a draw.

They were mentioned in the testimony of former prisoner Michal Kula, who
worked in the metalwork shop where the introduction devices were made. See
the Trial of Ho"ss, vol. 2, cards 99-101; vol. 11, cards 116, 130; vol.
25, card 33.


Mark


1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.174

2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.167


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul  1 16:30:10 PDT 1996
Article: 47489 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.exodus.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 13:34:52 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 132
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References:  <4qqf4i$6rd@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4qqf4i$6rd@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote on18 Jun 1996 
> >These are two seperate things, Mr. Allen. Even a toddler 
> >could tell the difference between a "little chimneys" ON
> > TOP of the roof of L.Keller 1
> >and wire mesh columns INSIDE the homicidal gas
> >chamber that pass THROUGH the roof of L.Keller 1 to 
> >end up outside and SURROUNDED by the "little chimneys." 
> 
> We are back to the Exterminationist starting point:
> Nothing has left any traces which can be examined;
> no base for the "little chimneys", to attachment points for
> the wire columns,  no wire columns, no bolt holes,
> no roof, no holes, no floor.  And you call us "deniers".
> 
> >First, You have claimed, in essence, that as no bolt holes can be >found
> in the ceiling of L.Keller 1 the introduction columns were, >pardon the
> pun, a
> >fabrication. You willfully ignore the simple explination that as the
> >columns, which measured 70 cm x 70 cm, passed through holes in >the roof,
> >which also likely measured 70 cm x 70 cm, the columns did not >need to be
> >fastened to the roof as they were, for all practical purposes, >already
> >"fastened" as they could not be moved laterally BECAUSE THE ROOF
> >CONSTRAINED THEM. 
>        

> Actually, my starting point is that there are NO 70 cm x 70
> cm holes in the roof of Leichenkeller 1.  

Then please explain Document 46 on p.228 of _Technique_ and explain why
the hole in the roof of L.Keller 1 is larger than the sewer manhole cover
which, when examining the Bauleitung drawing 1300, implies that the
manhole cover should be at _least_ 60 cm x 60 cm. 

> The discussion of the hypothetical pillar started with my further observation
> that there are no bolt holes around the three "traditional" vent holes
in the > roof of Leichenkeller 1.

No, the discussion regarding the wire-mesh Zyklon B introduction columns
started when Mr. Beaulieu tried to intentionally confuse them with the
concrete support pillars. After Mr. Beaulieu's specious claims were put to
rest you started to chime in with _your_ specious claims. 

Furthermore, your "observsation" regarding the lack of "bolt holes"
applied to the roof of L.Keller 1. You, of course, have consistantly
ignored that the  Zyklon B introduction columns passed threough the roof,
ending up inside the "little chimneys, and thus not requiring any "bolt
holes" to anchor them to the ceiling. 

> As to your "simple explaination", I am not ignoring it. I have thought
about it, it's stupid.

Of course, are ignoring it. You have no intelligent rebuttal to it and
therefore _must_ ignore it and/or call it "stupid."  An amazing feat of
chutzpuh when one considers the numerous eyewitness testimonies describing
the  Zyklon B introduction columns. Not to mention the photo of Krema II,
taken by the Bauleitung, that shows three "little chimneys" on the roof of
L.Keller 1 (Ibid. p.340, photos 17/17a); and the inventory list for Krema
II which shows four (4) "Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" (wire mesh
introduction devices) and four (4) "Holzblenden (wooden covers). 

And _you_ claim these Zyklon B introduction columns are "hypothetical?"
Simply amazing. Perhaps you would care to explain away all the above
evidence for the existance of these "hypothetical" Zyklon B introduction
columns? 

What, you can't? No wonder you must resort to argumentum ad hominem and
your ipse dixit "bolt holes."

> I feel that it is absurd to suppose that the wire pillar could have
withstood  > the alleged use without being fastened at the roof.  

Your ignorance of basic mechanics is not _my_ problem, Mr. Allen! Please
demonstrate that the tops Zyklon B introduction columns could _not_ have
"withstood the alleged use without being fastened at the roof."

> At best, you can assert that the metal tubes were only prevented from
moving laterally. 

Not at all! Not only were they prevented from moving laterally (i.e
horizontally) at the top be passage through the ceiling, they were so
constrained at the bottom by being attached to the floor. I have cited
Pipers detailing of this in _Anatomy_ several times. 

And your reply to this is to "hypothesize" that there were no "bolt holes"
in the floor? Simply amazing.  

> Any fex in the tubing, any horizontal or vertical pressure was unrestrained.

Simply put: Bullshit. The  Zyklon B introduction columns were constrained
at both their tops and bottoms. 

> Any pressures or impacts would have been transmitted and levered by the 
> lenght on the tubing to the hypothecal "anchor bolts"  on the floor.  

Simply put: Bullshit. Any lateral strain would have been distributed to
(and absorbed by) the portion of the column in contact with the ceiling
(and "little chimneys" as well. 

> Your arguments that people somehow avoided bumping into the columns
> during gasssing are specious. 

Simply put: Bullshit. You're being an ass by saying this. Both Dr. Nyiszli
and Henryk Tauber told of the victims piling up _away_ from the pillars
when they died. Ho"ess told of 1/3 of the victims in the gas chamber,
those immediately near the  Zyklon B introduction columns, dying
immediately when the Zyklon B was introduced. This blows your vapid idea
that the victims battered themselves against the Zyklon B introduction
columns right out of the water. 

And _you_ are suggesting otherwise? Evidense? What, you don't have any
evidence otherwise? Why am I not suprised, Mr. Allen?

Mr. Allen, please pardon my saying so, but you seem rather heavy on
bullshit and  quitye light on evidence for your claims. Please, I implore
you, get a clue and _think_ about the absurdity of what you are suggesting
before you make a further ass of yourself. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul  5 15:20:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48471 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 11:08:45 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 164
Message-ID: 
References: <4rak3r$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4rhdq3$b2m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4rhdq3$b2m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Jul 1, 1996 Mark Van Alstine wrote 
> > Actually, my starting point is that there are NO 70 cm x 70
> > cm holes in the roof of Leichenkeller 1.  
> 
> >Then please explain Document 46 on p.228 of _Technique_ and >explain why
> the hole in the roof of L.Keller 1 is larger than the >sewer manhole cover
> >which, when examining the Bauleitung drawing 1300, implies that >the
> manhole cover should be at _least_ 60 cm x 60 cm. 
>      My poor giddy Van Alstine. No wonder you are confused.
> Document 46 is NOT a picture of a hole in the roof of 
> Leichenkeller 1.  It is a picture of a drainage manhole with
> a drainage manhole cover next to it.
> Pressac, like all Hoaxters, avoids any clear pictures of what 
> he claims are vent holes.

Oh, my! Mr. Allen, having painted himself into a corner, must resort to
argumentum ad hominem! How telling as to the untenability of his position.
To give proof of Mr. Allens's "errors" and poor "reasoning," I submit the
following:  

The caption to Document 46 (_Technique_, pp.228-229) reads as follows: 

"Concrete cover with metal handle, weighing about 20 kg, origionally made
for the manhole of documents 44 and 45, now next to the remains of an
opening on the roof of Leichenkeller 1 (the gas chamber) of Krematorium
II, through which Zyklon B was poured."

Note that it is "an opening on the roof of Leichenkeller 1." 

Now, refernecing the Bauleitung drawing 1300 of the drainage system to
Kremas II clearly shows that the sewer manholes were outside of Krema II
and in the _ground_. The Zyklon B introduction hole in question is in the
_roof_ of L.Keller 1. This can be corroborated by the photo b''
(_Technique_, p.354) which shows the manhole cover mentioned in Document
46 on the remains of the collapsed roof at the east end of L.Keller 1. 

Clearly, Mr. Allen has either evidenced astute "ignorance" of the details
of Krema II or has been caught in a fabrication. 

I leave it to the reader to decide. 

> >>Furthermore, your "observsation" regarding the lack of "bolt >holes" 
> applied to the roof of L.Keller 1. 
>       It appears that you are agreeing with me that I am right
> about there being no bolt holes on the roof.
>      [snip]
> 
> > Perhaps you would care to explain away all the above
> >evidence for the existance of these "hypothetical" Zyklon B >introduction
> columns? 
>       I will, after I pin you down on the physical evidence
> existing at the scene of the crime.  

Mr. Allen, considering your above problem as to your intellectual
abilities regarding the Zyklon B introduction hole in the roof of L.Keller
1, I would suggest you be more concerned about not "pinning" yourself in
the foot!

> Remember,  it has only  been a few weeks since you admitted that the 
> Leichenkeller roof still exists.  

Mr. Allen, I have "admitted" that the roof of L.Keller has existed for
many _months_. In fact, I have never denied it's _existance_, I have
simply questioned how much of it was _intact_. 

>     [snip discussion of strenght of column, for now]

Oh? And why is this? I rather enjoued this discussion. I _do_ hope we can
continue with it soon....

> >And your reply to this is to "hypothesize" that there were no "bolt
> >holes" in the floor? Simply amazing.  
>       What is amazing is that  no one has ever found the bolt holes in
the floor necessary to sustain your story that there was a porous column. 

And who has looked for them? Nobody to my knowledge yet. Certainly no
scholars of repute that I know of. 
 
> No bolt holes equals no columns.

Actually, your empty assertions equals no argument.

> Find some bolt holes and you will have the pleasure of
> seeing me eat my words!

Indeed. But for the moment I would be most happy to see you explain why
the "little chimneys," as you have claimed, never existsed on the roof of
L.Keller 1 when there is a photograph of them on L.Keller 1. 

Perhaps your "crow pie" will be ready sooner than you had hoped? Bon appetit!

>       [snip 2nd discussion of strenght of column, for now]

How, dissappointing! I enjoyed this discussion too!

> >> Your arguments that people somehow avoided bumping into the >>columns
> during gasssing are specious. 
> 
> >Simply put: Bullshit. You're being an ass by saying this. Both Dr.
> >Nyiszli and Henryk Tauber told of the victims piling up _away_ from the 
> >pillars when they died. 
> 
> This is interesting.  There were four columns.  What did the
> victims do, die in 5 lines between the columns?    
> I * I * I * I * I  How thoughtful of the victims.
> Did the Germans leave the lights on during 
> the executions so that the victims could see and avoid the
> columns?  How clever of the Germans.
> Did the victims, having been led halfway around the
> Crema building (please don't look in the windows, the chimneys
> are just for heating bath water), down a narrow stairway, into 
> a low ceilinged basement, through small room*, right turn into another low
> ceilinged room   (all on belief that they were going to take an
> underground shower) suddenly realize that these strange wire columns were
> emitting poison gas?  What a sudden loss of innocence and scientific
> insight of the victims.

More vaccuous nonsense, Mr. Allen? How sad to be reduced to replyuing with
drivel.... Tsk, tsk. When you can properly formulate a coherent reply
maybe then I will be to answer you. 

> *Some Hoaxters, such as John Morris, claim that they even went through
> ANOTHER small room to finally get to the so-called
> gaschamber at the south end of Leichenkeller.

More ad hominen attacks? Tsk, tsk, Mr. Allen, you do yourself and your
"arguments" a disservice! 

> 
> >Ho"ess told of 1/3 of the victims in the gas chamber,
> >those immediately near the  Zyklon B introduction columns, dying
> >immediately when the Zyklon B was introduced. 
>     Did the Germans open the cans of Zyclon and
> pour them down all four vent holes at the same time? 
>      What skilled synchroneity!
> Hoess's story has more holes in it than your porous 
> pillars

Ah, there you go with _more_ specious drivel, Mr. Allen. Do try and get a
grip on yourself! When you do, perhaps you would care to articulate your
replies in a more, er, _rational_ fashion? I would be most happy to reply
with a reasoned rebuttal in that case. 

[snip]

Please, Mr. Allen, take some time to compose yourself. You seem to be
taking the  refutation of your silly denier claims rather hard. When you
are ratiojnal again, I do hope you will answer the questions that remain
outstanding to you. After that I would be delighted to continue on with
our dialogue.

Mark

posted/e-mailed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul  5 17:56:50 PDT 1996
Article: 48493 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 10:12:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References: <4rak3r$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4rhdmv$b13@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4rhdmv$b13@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Jul 1, 1996  (Mark Van Alstine) wrote
> 
> 
> >> Furthermore, I believe that the drainage system works and I
> >> known that the inside walls are generally intact. 
> 
> >And your basis for such assumptions, Mr. Allen? 
> Been there, seen it.

Mr. Allen, in article <4qqgbq$7fk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>you wrote: "> I
discussed the state of the floor with several individuals  who had the
interest and integrity to actually visit the site."

Just to clarify things, Mr. Allen, did _you_ actually go to Auschwitz and
carefully examine the remains of the floor and drainge system of the Krema
II's L.Keller 1? If so, did you document this? 

> >> This would indicate that the original floor is still there waiting for
> >> somebody to find bolt holes in it.
> 

Let repeat myself, seeing as you ungraciously edited my response out, Mr.
Allen: Given that you are relying on previous unclear assumptions, Mr.
Allen, one might be pardoned for being skeptical of _your_ assumptions,
yes?  Perhaps you would care to  walk through _all_ your assumptions,
citing all corrobarating evidence,  step-by-step for us? 

Well, Mr. Allen? Care to  walk through _all_ your assumptions, citing all
corrobarating evidence, step-by-step for us? 

> > >> Of course, the amazing point of all this is that neither remains
> > >> of little chimneys or bolt holes on the floor have ever been 
> > >> found.  
> > 
> > >Considering that the "little chimneys" were probably brick, 
> > >do you find this suprising Mr. Allen? How can you tell the 
> > >bricks from a little chimney apart from bricks in rubble? Or from
> > >bricks in a pile of other bricks elsewhere? 
> 
> > Yes, it is suprising.  The bricks, (if that is what you want
> > to claim the chimneys were made of) would have been
> > cemented to the roof both to hold them in place and to
> > create a water tight seal to keep rain and snow from
> > going into the room below. 
> 
> >And. Mr. Allen? Are you asserting that no indications that these "little
> chimneys" now exist on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen.
>         YES
> >And that >because of this said "little chimneys _never_ existed? 
>          AND YES

Then please explain, Mr. Allen, the photo of Krema II, taken by the
Bauleitung, that _clearly_ shows three "little chimneys" on the roof of
L.Keller 1 (_Technique_, p.340, photos 17/17a). I am _still_ awaiting what
must be a very illuminating answer....

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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