Archive/File: orgs/american/oregon/banished.cpu christian.news
Last-Modified: 1993/12/17

Note: This file was published to UseNet by Dan Gannon, aka "maynard", in
four parts. I have concatenated all four parts into a single document to
provide for easier retrieval. knm.

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Article: 20265 of soc.history
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From: maynard@banished.uucp
Subject: THE GREAT NON-DEBATE [PART 1 OF 4]
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>From _Christian News_, February 27, 1989, page 1:


            'THE DEBATE OF THE CENTURY' ON HOLOCAUST FIZZLES

    Exterminationists Called 'Un-American' for Backing Out of Debate
                   Four Empty Seats vs. Revisionists



     Los Angeles, California -- February 21 -- What has long been called
"The Debate of the Century" by the "Exterminators of Revisionism" turned out
here today to be a "debate" between four empty chairs marked "Glen Peglau,"
"John Montgomery," "Hal Lindsey," and "Thomas Anderson" and revisionists
Robert Faurisson, Robert Countess, Bradley Smith, and Mark Weber.

     On March 7, 1988 the "Exterminators of revisionism" announced in a news
release titled "Debate of the Century Is On:"  "It is high time we prove
beyond a reasonable doubt before the whole world, in an open debate before
the global media, that the holocaust was a real part of history.  This must
be done to stop the ridiculous contentions of the revisionists that the
holocaust is only a figment of the Zionists' imagination.  Their
anti-Semitism and neo-Nazi propaganda must be stopped in this generation."

     Attorney Glen Peglau is quoted in the release:  "It is also doubtful in
my mind whether the revisionists can get one responsible theologian on their
side.  I can assure you we will have at least four of the most responsible,
conservative, Bible believing theologians on our side.  These men are godly
men who are above reproach."

     The March 21, 1988 CN said in an editorial on the debate:  "Both sides
should only be interested in the truth and not in winning some debate.  Both
sides should follow CN's long standing motto:  PUT ALL OF THE FACTS ON THE
TABLE AND LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY.

     "After the debate is over, we hope that one side or the other will have
the courage to say to the other:  'Thanks, we appreciate that you have shown
us the truth, we regret that we have been so sadly misled all these years
and we will do our best to see that from now on only the truth is told about
the Holocaust.'"

     Attorney Glen Peglau, chairman of the "Committee for the Extermination
of Revisionism" announced on February 15 that "a bomb threat" had been
"inferred" and that it would not be possible for the exterminationists (who
insist that the Germans exterminated, most of them in gas chambers, six
million Jews) to debate the revisionists.

     The Revisionists at the debate noted that the Christian
exterminationists should not have been afraid to debate "just because of
some inferred bomb threat."  "Have these Christian exterminationists not
trust in the God they say they believe in?," a revisionist asked.

     Since it was not possible to inform all those who had planned to attend
the Holocaust debate that the exterminationists would not appear, the
revisionists presented their position at a motel across the street from
where the debate had originally been scheduled.  Almost all the
approximately 150 who attended the "debate" indicated that they did not
believe the Germans exterminated six million Jews or that the Germans had a
plan to exterminate Jews.

     Dr. Robert Countess, who has taught at various colleges, began the
debate by saying he hoped the revisionists could at least "win over" the
exterminationists to study revisionist literature.  Exterminationists Peglau
and Montgomery admitted that they had not read the writings of the leading
revisionists.  The revisionists at the debate repeatedly referred to the
writings of the most scholarly and respected exterminationist authorities.
Countess said he could not understand why "born again" Christians should let
some alleged "bomb threat" frighten them.  Countess phoned Peglau and asked
him:  "Can't you trust in the Lord?"

     The Alabama professor said that Peglau informed him that 98.2% of the
American people believe in the Holocaust.

     Commenting on Hal Lindsey, Countess noted that Hal Lindsey maintains
that animal sacrifices will one day again take place for human sin.

     The revisionists had hoped to be able to question the
exterminationists, but revisionist Mark Weber announced that the
exterminationists said they would refuse to debate if the revisionists would
be allowed to question them.  Weber reported that Peglau had told him his
exterminationist team would not answer questions "because we are going to be
made fools of" by answering questions from revisionists.

     The revisionists said they would be willing to answer any questions.
Since the exterminationists were not present to question the revisionists,
the revisionists answered questions from the audience and the press.

     Mark Weber commented on the origins of the debate.  He noted that
Peglau had announced with "great fan fare" the formation of the
exterminators of revisionism and that the debate would be held in
Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C. for national television.  Weber said
that Peglau had announced that at least two congressmen and several
Holocaust survivors would be part of his team.  According to Weber, all the
excuses the exterminationists were now using to back out of the debate
appeared to be "pretexts."  "We are greatly disappointed," Weber said.  "We
thought it would be a positive event."

     Dr. Countess noted that the list of prominent scholars who now take the
revisionist position on the Holocaust "gets longer" each year.  "We do not
deny that there was a holocaust" he said.  He referred to the holocaust of
Dresden when some 200,000 were killed.  "All of WWII was a holocaust," but
the extermination of six million Jews is simply not in accord with the
evidence, Countess added.

     He said that the best evidence that the Germans did not exterminate six
million Jews and did not have any plan to exterminate all Jews is that after
WWII most of them were still there.

     The revisionists noted that Fred Leuchter, a leading U.S. authority on
the construction of gas chambers for executing criminals, recently made a
detailed study of the "gas chambers" where the Jews are to have been
exterminated.  He also studied their construction plans.

     Leuchter, who believed the Germans exterminated six million Jews, most
of them in gas chambers, before his scientific study, concluded there were
no gas chambers in the camps where the Germans are to have gassed millions.

     Leuchter called for an impartial International Commission to
investigate the alleged gas chambers and their plans.  Revisionists at the
debate appeared to support Leuchter's call for such a commission.

     Countess said that the Nazis were "anti-Jewish," a spirit which he
deplored.  While he recognized that many communists were Jewish ("Jay
Bols"), he maintained it was difficult to prove conspiratorial notions which
blamed all the world's ills on any one group.  He said the "Protocols of
Zion" were not authentic and that the average Jew was a good citizen.  He
said "there is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy."

     The revisionist noted that debates were in the best American tradition
and that the revisionists regretted that the exterminationists were not
following in this tradition.

     Dr. Robert Faurisson, a professor from France, and an expert on
documentary evidence, began by pointing to the empty chairs and saying that
he wished that Elie Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal, Rudolf Verba, and Raul Hilberg
were seated in the chairs and that he would be able to question these
leading Holocaust writers and authorities.  He cited some of the questions
he would have asked them.  "Have you studied the gas chambers?"  "Were you
there?"  "Where are the extermination orders?"  "Where are budget figures
for extermination, plans, etc.?"  Faurisson participated in a trial
involving the Holocaust where he was able to help attorney Doug Christie
cross-examine Hilberg and Verba.  Observers report that Hilberg and Verba
were "utterly devastated" and shown to be untruthful.

     Faurisson, a leftist and an atheist, at one time believed the Germans
exterminated six million Jews, most of them by gassing, but after spending
years studying the "gas chambers" and the Holocaust concluded that there
were no gas chambers.

     Faurisson asked Elie Wiesel's chair:  "When your liberators from the
death camp in Auschwitz were coming and you had a choice to remain in
Auschwitz why did you leave with your exterminators?"

     Faurisson mentioned other questions he wanted to ask the
exterminationist scholars designed to expose their "lies" and
contradictions.  He maintained that Verba is a "professional liar."

     The Frenchman said that the exterminationists who refused to debate and
defend their position in open debate were "un-American."  Faurisson's
reasons for maintaining there were no gas chambers for extermination are in
_The Christian News Encyclopedia_, pp. 2920.

     The editor of _Christian News_ at the "debate" announced that the
exterminationists said they were still interested in a debate, possibly in
Palm Springs, California, on September 23.  He reported that Mr. Glen Peglau
had agreed to a proposal for a written debate in the pages of Christian
News.  (See page 22 on the February 20 CN for the editor's proposal for a
written debate).

     The CN editor listed his reasons for not believing in the Holocaust at
the International Conference on Historical Review.  The CN editor is willing
to publish any response from an exterminationist who wants to show that his
reasons are in error.  The editor stated:


*  THERE IS NO CONVINCING OR SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE FOR THE ALLEGATION OF MASS
KILLINGS IN GAS CHAMBERS IN THE WARTIME GERMAN CAMPS.  Careful investigation
-- and in particular the one carried out by American engineer Fred Leuchter
-- has thoroughly discredited the "gas chamber" extermination claims.

*  A NUMBER OF FORMER CAMP INMATES -- INCLUDING SOME WHO WERE INTERNED IN
THE NOTORIOUS AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU CAMP -- HAVE DECLARED THAT THE WARTIME
GERMAN CAMPS WERE NOT EXTERMINATION CENTERS.

*  THE MOST RELIABLE STATISTICS AVAILABLE CANNOT BE RECONCILED WITH THE
LEGENDARY "SIX MILLION" FIGURE.  The best evidence indicates that no more
than a million or perhaps a million and a half European Jews perished from
all causes during the war years.

*  NEITHER THE MAJOR JEWISH ORGANIZATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES, NOR THE
WARTIME ALLIED GOVERNMENTS, NOR THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS, NOR THE VATICAN
ACTED AS IF THEY SERIOUSLY BELIEVED THE WARTIME EXTERMINATION PROPAGANDA.

*  ALTHOUGH THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT KEPT EXTENSIVE AND DETAILED RECORDS OF ITS
WARTIME JEWISH POLICY, NOT A SINGLE DOCUMENT HAS EVER BEEN FOUND WHICH
SUBSTANTIATES OR EVEN REFERS TO AN EXTERMINATION PROGRAM OR POLICY.
Instead, the voluminous German records confiscated by the Allies at the end
of the war clearly show that the German "final solution" program was one of
emigration and deportation, not extermination.

*  EVEN PROMINENT JEWISH "EXTERMINATIONIST" HISTORIANS NOW ACKNOWLEDGE THAT
THE STORIES OF GASSINGS AND EXTERMINATION IN CAMPS IN GERMANY PROPER ARE NOT
TRUE, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT SUCH CLAIMS WERE ONCE SERIOUSLY MADE,
PARTICULARLY AT THE GREAT NUREMBERG TRIAL OF 1945-1946.

*  THE HOLOCAUST STORY NOW CENTERS ON JUST SIX FORMER CAMPS IN WHAT IS NOW
COMMUNIST-RULED POLAND, AND THE SO-CALLED "EVIDENCE" PRESENTED TO PROVE MASS
EXTERMINATIONS IN THESE CAMPS IS QUALITATIVELY NO BETTER THAN THE NOW
DISCREDITED "EVIDENCE" ONCE CITED FOR EXTERMINATIONS IN THE CAMPS IN GERMANY
PROPER.

*  MUCH OF THE SO-CALLED "EVIDENCE" PRESENTED BY THE "EXTERMINATIONISTS"
OVER THE YEARS HAS ALREADY BEEN THOROUGHLY DISCREDITED.  For example, the
well-known horrific photographs of piles of corpses taken in camps in
western Germany at the end of the war are now acknowledged to be photos of
victims of disease and malnutrition who perished as indirect victims of the
war in the final weeks and months of the conflict.  Also, so-called
"confessions" -- such as those of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess -- have
been shown to be untruthful and extracted by torture.  Many of the official
reports and testimonies presented as "evidence" by the prosecution in the
Nuremberg trials has since been shown to be lies.

*  THE FACT THAT SO MANY JEWS "SURVIVED" GERMAN RULE DURING THE WAR -- MANY
OF THEM EVEN IN SO-CALLED "EXTERMINATION" CENTERS SUCH AS AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU
-- IS ENOUGH TO SHOW THAT THERE WAS NO GERMAN PROGRAM OR POLICY TO
EXTERMINATE THE JEWS OF EUROPE.

     (Only partially relevant:)

     EXTERMINATIONISTS SOMETIMES CHARGE THAT THE REVISIONISTS HAVE NOT
IRREFUTABLY PROVEN THEIR CASE.  However, it is rather those who make
terrible accusations who have the burden of proof to prove their case -- and
not those who dispute these charges.

     The Holocaust is a hoax and the time has come for Christian scholars
and pastors to recognize this and stop perpetrating a hoax as the truth.  A
Christian is not free to believe and promote a lie about any person or
nation, as was said in our introduction.  True Christian scholars should at
least read what the revisionists are saying.

[end of article]


     This article was manually transcribed by the System Operator of the
"Banished CPU" computer bulletin board system, which is located in Portland,
Oregon, U.S.A.


                    Banished CPU supports Freedom of Speech!
          ___________________________________________________________
         |                                                           |
         |  For 300-9600 bps (3 lines w/V.32) call:  (503) 232-5783  |
         |  For 14400 bps (2 lines w/V.32bis) call:  (503) 232-6566  |
         |___________________________________________________________|

                        Sysop: Maynard "the Main Nerd"

[end of file]


-Dan Gannon




From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!destroyer!news.cic.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!netcomsv!netcomsv!banished!maynard Fri Dec 17 01:10:08 PST 1993



>From _Christian News_, March 13, 1989, page 10:


Montgomery 'Astonishingly Ignorant'


                  PEGLAU BACKS OUT OF HOLOCAUST DEBATE

                             By Mark Weber



     Seven days before it was to be held on Feb. 21 in Torrance, Calif.,
Glen Peglau and his "exterminationist" team backed out of the eagerly
anticipated Holocaust debate.

     Our "Revisionist" team went ahead anyway with a presentation that
included a news conference and talks by Dr. Robert Countess, Bradley Smith,
French professor Robert Faurisson and myself.

     Peglau and his team were represented by four empty chairs, each with a
large sign showing the name of an absent "exterminationist."


[Photograph captioned, "Open Debate on the Holocaust, Torrance, California,
February 21.  Four empty seats marked Tom Anderson, John Montgomery, Glen
Peglau, and Hal Lindsey vs. (left to right) Robert Faurisson, Mark Weber,
Bradley Smith, and Robert Countess."]

___________________________________________________________________________

"History will always owe a debt to the editor of _Christian News_ for his
bringing the issue of the Holocaust, and the revisionist position, to the
attention of the world...," Peglau added.  "I believe we are operating under
the Lord's will..."
___________________________________________________________________________


     Journalists for the _Torrance Daily Breeze_ and the _Los Angeles Times_
were present, and articles about the "non-debate" later appeared in the two
papers.  Although the reports were slanted and sometimes inaccurate, they
made many more people aware of the growing impact of Holocaust revisionism.

     Peglau -- a successful attorney and Lutheran activist -- backed out in
spite of a promise to participate even if he would be "the only one present"
from his side.

     Peglau said that he and best-selling Christian author Hal Lindsey
withdrew because they feared a possible riot or bombing.  Although I tried
hard to convince Peglau that there was no basis for these fears, he remained
completely inflexible.

     Peglau's pretext was a request by Torrance city police officer Rick
Louck to everyone involved to report any suspicious phone calls or other
unusual activity.  Louck said that he was concerned that the Jewish Defense
League might try to disrupt the event.

     (The FBI has officially described the Jewish Defense League as a
criminal and terrorist organization.  JDL founder Meier Kahane and current
JDL leader Irv Rubin have each been arrested numerous times.)

     Although Bradley Smith and I welcomed police involvement, Peglau
panicked when he heard about Loucke's concern.  "I won't risk my life for
this debate," he said.

     There was never any real danger.  There were no threats or
demonstrations, and the "non-debate" took place without incident or trouble
of any kind.

     The other "exterminationist" team members -- educator John W.
Montgomery and attorney Thomas Anderson -- were not able to participate as
they had pledged because each had to be in court that day, Peglau said.


[Photograph captioned, "John Warwick Montgomery, Ph.D., Th.D."]

___________________________________________________________________________

"To argue that the exterminations did not occur on the scale established by
the Nuremberg Trials is to argue for a Flat Earth."  --John Warwick
Montgomery
___________________________________________________________________________


     Almost all of the more than 100 men and women who attended the Feb. 21
"non-debate" already supported the revisionist view of the Holocaust story.

     The five-hour event began with an opening statement and a news
conference.

     Rev. Herman Otten spoke briefly about the need for greater public
awareness of both sides of this issue.  (Otten, a Lutheran pastor, first
proposed a Holocaust debate in the March 16, 1987, issue of his weekly
paper, _Christian News_.  Smith and I quickly accepted this challenge and we
organized the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust to present the
"revisionist" view.  Several months later, Peglau announced that he would
participate.)

     Dr. Countess, who has taught at numerous colleges and universities,
delivered the first regular presentation, in which he sharply criticized the
vast "Holocaustomania" media campaign.  A question and answer period
followed.

     During my own presentation, I cited numerous documents and other
evidence to show that the Holocaust extermination story is a historical
fraud.  After another question and answer period, the gathering broke for
lunch.

     After the break, Smith was the next to speak.  The author and prominent
revisionist publicist shared thoughts and observations about the Holocaust
story in a wide-ranging talk.

     Prof. Faurisson concluded with a well-organized presentation that dealt
with specific Holocaust myths.  The failure of the four "exterminationists"
to appear was "un-American," he said.  After a lively question and answer
period and some final announcements, the gathering concluded.

     In spite of the non-appearance of Peglau's team, our side was not
entirely disappointed:  We introduced a small group of skeptical attendees,
including a few journalists, to the revisionist case.  We strengthened the
conviction of others who already agreed with our view.  And we collected
$616 in donations to defray our expenses and carry on our work.

     When Peglau backed out, he also cancelled the arrangement with the
curch where the debate was to be held.  This forced our side to quickly find
(and pay for) an alternative site at a hotel conference room across the
street.  We also arranged to let people arriving at the curch know about the
new site.

     Our side went ahead with the event because many people -- including
quite a few from out of state -- had already made firm plans to attend, and
because we had already notified quite a few newspapers about the event.

     During a phone conversation on Feb. 15, Peglau said that he would be
willing to participate in an alternative debate in September in a "secure"
hotel in Palm Springs.

     But 13 days later he backed out of even that whimpy verbal pledge.  He
told me during a Feb. 28 phone conversation that he is not willing to
participate in a Holocaust debate of any kind -- except, perhaps, a written
one in the pages of _Christian News_ -- because he will not put himself
through any more strain and trouble.

     Peglau's last minute withdrawal contrasts sharply with his bombastic
claims last year to "exterminate" Holocaust revisionism in a large-scale
debate that he said would be held in Constitution Hall in Washington, DC.
Peglau originally said that his 15-member team would include two U.S.
Congressmen, prominent  scholars and former camp inmates.

     "It is high time we prove beyond a reasonable doubt, before the whole
world, in open debate before the global media, that the Holocaust was a real
part of history," Peglau wrote in the March 7, 1988, issue of _Christian
News_.  "I assure you we will have at least four of the most responsible,
Bible-believing theologians on our side.  These will be godly men above
reproach."

     "History will always owe a debt to the editor of _Christian News_ for
his bringing the issue of the Holocaust, and the revisionist position, to
the attention of the world...," Peglau added.  "I believe we are operating
under the Lord's will..."

     During many often lengthy phone conversations, Peglau made it
abundantly clear that he is woefully ignorant about the Holocaust issue.  He
has a superficial "Hollywood" understanding of this chapter of history, and
is not familiar with either the orthodox or the revisionist views.  On
numerous occasions, I urged Peglau (and Montgomery) to seriously study this
issue so that they would be at least minimally prepared for the debate.

     During our Feb. 15 phone conversation, Peglau specifically admitted
that he had been mistaken in telling me earlier that my letter to Hal
Lindsey of Feb. 2 had so enraged Lindsey that he withdrew from the debate.
And during our Feb. 28 conversation, Peglau said that Lindsey had not
actually read my Feb. 2 letter until after he had already decided to
withdraw from the debate.

     At one point during our Feb. 15 conversation, I rhetorically asked
Peglau what kind of devotion to principle Lindsey and others like him would
show if they lived in a country like North Korea or Cuba, where dissidents
must endure real persecution.

     John W. Montgomery says that the revisionist view of the Holocaust
story is "immoral," according to a report in the _Torrance Daily Breeze_
(Feb. 22).  Such an accusation is particularly remarkable coming from a man
who was recently forced out of his own law school for "moral failure."

     Montgomery is also astonishingly ignorant on the Holocaust issue.  In
fact, his willingness to debate our revisionist team can only be regarded as
a breathtaking example of intellectual arrogance.

     During a phone conversation in late January, Montgomery acknowledged
that he was not even superficially familiar with the writings of revisionist
historians.

___________________________________________________________________________

"It is high time we prove beyond a reasonable doubt, before the whole world,
in open debate before the global media, that the Holocaust was a real part
of history."
___________________________________________________________________________


     The _Daily Breeze_ quoted Montgomery as saying:  "To argue that the
exterminations did not occur on the scale established by the Nuremberg
trials is to argue for a flat earth."  Montgomery obviously does not know
that even prominent "exterminationists" such as Raul Hilberg now reject the
"original" Nuremberg version of the Holocaust story.

     For example, not a single serioius or prominent historian still
believes the Nuremberg story that four million were killed at Auschwitz and
another 1.5 million at Majdanek.

     Nor does any serious historian still accept the ludicrous Nuremberg
tales of mass exterminations of Jews with electricity and steam.

     Hal Lindsey's bizarre best-selling fantasy about the imminent end of
the world, _The Late Great Planet Earth_, includes the prediction that a
vast military force of Soviet troops and no less than 200 million Chinese
soldiers will soon be invading Israel.

     In a letter to Rev. Otten which appeared in the March 14, 1988, issue
of _Christian News_, I wrote:  "As you know, those who uphold the orthodox
view of the Holocaust story have been notoriously unwilling to defend their
position in open debate.  So if the proposed debate is ever finally held,
Mr. Smith and I will be very pleasantly surprised."

     Although we are disappointed at the failure of Peglau and his
"exterminationist" friends to honor their well-publicized pledges, we remain
as eager as ever to publicly debate the Holocaust story under any reasonable
circumstances, confident that the evidence we present will convince
intelligent and open-minded people that the Holocaust story is essentially a
fraud which has been kept alive for self-serving reasons.

[end of article]


     This article was manually transcribed by the System Operator of the
"Banished CPU" computer bulletin board system, which is located in Portland,
Oregon, U.S.A.


                    Banished CPU supports Freedom of Speech!
          ___________________________________________________________
         |                                                           |
         |  For 300-9600 bps (3 lines w/V.32) call:  (503) 232-5783  |
         |  For 14400 bps (2 lines w/V.32bis) call:  (503) 232-6566  |
         |___________________________________________________________|

                        Sysop: Maynard "the Main Nerd"

[end of file]


-Dan Gannon

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