Some email that was exchanged between Fredrick Toben of the
Adelaide Institute, and myself, circa Christmas 1996.
- Jamie McCarthy (jamie@voyager.net)







Subject:     Your Activities
Sent:        12/21/96 3:50 AM
Received:    12/21/96 10:49 AM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          jamie@voyager.net
CC:          fredadin@adam.com.au

Dear Mr McCarthy
I have just checked your site to see whether you have posted my 'fireside
chat'. Am I correct that it is not there?
How are things otherwise with you? I like your material about Chomsky -
Partners in Hate - an extensive view of him from a different angle.....all
very interesting to me.
What is this business about Zundel not being able to meet with McVay - and
the telephone line to a local synagogue? Whether it is relevant is a
question which doesn't really interest me.
A comment from you would be appreciated.
Sincerely
Fredrick Toben








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/21/96 11:46 AM
Received:    12/21/96 11:51 AM
From:        Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
CC:          jamie@voyager.net

>I have just checked your site to see whether you have posted my 'fireside
>chat'. Am I correct that it is not there?

I didn't know it existed;  I just started reading it now.  I do recall
that I'd said I'd make you a cross-link (it slipped my mind) but I thought
it was for something I'd read.  I haven't read this before.

OK, let's see...I think I still have to add both the replies at

   http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/mccarthy03.html

and at

   http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/mccarthy04.html

The former must have been what I was thinking of, but I was unaware of the
latter.

Meanwhile you still haven't posted _my_ last note to you:

   
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/australian/adelaide-institute/correspondence/nizkor-to-adelaide-960902-01.html

I'd appreciate your doing this.

And, you say in the "fireside chat" --

   I shall ask our webmaster to insert a link to this correspondence
   at the point where we claim that to date the plans of the
   conversion have not been forthcoming.

This hasn't been done.  I'd appreciate your doing this as well.

The great, great bulk of your reply (I've now finished skimming through 
it) is way off-topic and is obviously not intended to be responded to.  
Most of your questions are rhetorical.  Well, I guess I can't accuse you 
of misrepresentation -- it says it's a "monologue" right up at the top.  
And that's what it is.

I don't think anything good would come of my replying.  If I find time, I 
will.  If not, I won't.

In any case, I will log on to Nizkor and add your material to our 
"correspondence" section, which will, in 12-24 hours, be mirrored to:

  
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/australian/adelaide-institute/correspondence/

I _really_ have more important work that needs to get done, but I will do 
this because I think I owe it to you.

To answer two direct, nonrhetorical questions I found:  no, I haven't 
read Rudolf's report except for a few critical pages on HCN evaporation, 
because I read German very slowly.  If you know of an English 
translation, please, send it my way!  And no, I haven't read the Talmud, 
because frankly I don't care.

>How are things otherwise with you?

Busy.  I don't get paid for my Nizkor work, and I've been occupied with 
my real-life work recently (and will be more so in future).

>I like your material about Chomsky -
>Partners in Hate - an extensive view of him from a different angle.....all
>very interesting to me.

I haven't read much of that piece...

>What is this business about Zundel not being able to meet with McVay - and
>the telephone line to a local synagogue? Whether it is relevant is a
>question which doesn't really interest me.
>A comment from you would be appreciated.

Here's my comment:  Zuendel is a conspiracy-lover who is not interested 
in the truth.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/







Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/21/96 3:25 PM
Received:    12/21/96 4:49 PM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
CC:          fredadin@adam.com.au


>Here's my comment:  Zuendel is a conspiracy-lover who is not interested 
>in the truth.

Mr McCarthy - I think you are wrong here - Zundel is motivated to set the
record straight...he is seeking truth, pursuing it vigorously and - above
all - courageously. 
Then he does something which you - and those who hold fast to the unproven
homicidal gas chamber story don't like - he re-evaluates Hitler's role in
the light of the truths he has discovered.
At this point the World Jewish groups - that have also taken us to our Human
Rights Commission  ( the conspiracy is a proven fact - Rabbi Cooper began
the action here in Australia from his home base in the US -  but I prefer to
talk about people acting in concert ...something that is a normal human
activity) - complain because they see their advantages in a number of
speheres slipping away into Zundel's hands. Such loss hurts and so his
activity is deemed to be defamatory, hayeful, antisemitic, racist,
etc.....all those words are used which short-circuit any meaningful discussion.

It is in this light that I find your approach rather lacking in integrity.
Were you to question your own premise, i.e. that it happened, then we could
talk. But you do not wish to know - you want to believe. And so do the
vested interests.
I am amazed how the Chomsky phenomenon is upsetting those who cannot
tolerate another point-of-view. The left-right wing, Nazi-Communist
categories , etc. all come back into play....and personally I see these
categories as having had their day in court.
We can see how this worn terminology has literally stuffed up our teaching
environment where students emerge with a very low mental tolerance level.
The heretic, the outsider, the protester, all are forced into an
intellectual uniformity which stifles individual thought processes - at the
back of which is the "it happened story"......
I must say that your refined intellectual approach is good in so far as it
pin-points weaknesses within arguments. Unfortunately your premise is all
wrong and that will in time become clear to you when you extricate yourself
from the swamp of particulars wherein you currently find yourself. Age has a
lot to do with it - when you are strong enough to question your basic
premises, then you will feel truly intellectually liberated. But perhaps
your mind has some Carl Segan star dust in it, who knows.
Regards and thanks for replying. I don't think our webmaster has made the
linkages you requested. Like you, I had lost track of our brief written
association.
Fredrick Toben








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/21/96 4:56 PM
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au

>It is in this light that I find your approach rather lacking in integrity.
>Were you to question your own premise, i.e. that it happened, then we could
>talk.

I am willing to question everything, including whether the sun goes around
the earth, whether Elvis is alive, and whether there was a massive
conspiracy to frame Germany for a colossal crime it did not commit.

All those questions have been answered to my satisfaction.

Please explain how this impacts negatively upon my integrity.

>But you do not wish to know - you want to believe. And so do the
>vested interests.
>I am amazed how the Chomsky phenomenon is upsetting those who cannot
>tolerate another point-of-view. The left-right wing, Nazi-Communist
>categories , etc. all come back into play....and personally I see these
>categories as having had their day in court.
>We can see how this worn terminology has literally stuffed up our teaching
>environment where students emerge with a very low mental tolerance level.
>The heretic, the outsider, the protester, all are forced into an
>intellectual uniformity which stifles individual thought processes - at the
>back of which is the "it happened story"......
>I must say that your refined intellectual approach is good in so far as it
>pin-points weaknesses within arguments. Unfortunately your premise is all
>wrong and that will in time become clear to you when you extricate yourself
>from the swamp of particulars wherein you currently find yourself. Age has a
>lot to do with it - when you are strong enough to question your basic
>premises, then you will feel truly intellectually liberated. But perhaps
>your mind has some Carl Segan star dust in it, who knows.

Words, words, words.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/21/96 9:24 PM
Received:    12/21/96 11:22 PM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
CC:          fredadin@adam.com.au


>All those questions have been answered to my satisfaction.
>

But not for me - and the violence exercised by those who wish to stop
individuals from asking questions attests to the flimsiness of the
exterminationist argument. As Kirsty Gowans, Human Rights conciliator said
to me last Friday, "the Commission is a creature of international politics
and you are against a billion dollar holocaust industry". 

Hence, Faurisson's "No holes, no holocaust"  is a powerful statement of
fact. Any computer modelling would indicate that technically it was not
possible to kill people in such primitive alleged gas chambers.

This is what I meant when I said that we need not worry about the details
about the issue - because that is a repeat of the Scholastic argument - how
many angels fit on a pin head? The premise is faulty, is wrong. 

I am just reading Filip Muller's 'Auschwitz Inferno' published in 1979 .
Amazingly in our own Don Watt's 'Stoker', 1995, we do not come across any of
the names Muller mentions in his book. And surely an Australian in Auschwitz
would be remembered by Muller.
Interestingly, Jehuda Bauer in his Foreword to Muller's book claims that
"Filip Muller's book is a unique document: it is the testimony of the only
man who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell what he saw......three
and a half million "...were murdered there.

Am I to believe such nonsense claims in 1996? But I forget that any
dialectically schooled person can talk their way out of this moral problem.
You will find verbal escapes......but not factual! That's what I mean by you
lacking in integrity.
Perhaps, though, it is rather harsh of me to use that word, and I apologize.
It would be more appropriate for me to call you innocent, naive, a believer.
But then, you  label the Germans with a crime that they did not commit - and
that reflects upon your callous and non-empathetic nature. 


>
>>But you do not wish to know - you want to believe. And so do the
>>vested interests.
>>I am amazed how the Chomsky phenomenon is upsetting those who cannot
>>tolerate another point-of-view. The left-right wing, Nazi-Communist
>>categories , etc. all come back into play....and personally I see these
>>categories as having had their day in court.
>>We can see how this worn terminology has literally stuffed up our teaching
>>environment where students emerge with a very low mental tolerance level.
>>The heretic, the outsider, the protester, all are forced into an
>>intellectual uniformity which stifles individual thought processes - at the
>>back of which is the "it happened story"......
>>I must say that your refined intellectual approach is good in so far as it
>>pin-points weaknesses within arguments. Unfortunately your premise is all
>>wrong and that will in time become clear to you when you extricate yourself
>>from the swamp of particulars wherein you currently find yourself. Age has a
>>lot to do with it - when you are strong enough to question your basic
>>premises, then you will feel truly intellectually liberated. But perhaps
>>your mind has some Carl Segan star dust in it, who knows.
>
>Words, words, words.

No, Mr McCarthy, these words have a reality content which make up world views
of which the Holocaust is but one. Hence, what I say above, if you are
intellectually worried, would deserve an exchange - an exchange of ideas. 
On the other hand, your dismissing the above as mere 'words' indicates a
kind of materialism that would bring us closer to exploring the physical
reality of the homicidal gas chamber story.... but you shy away from that
because in your view all this is unnecessary because the evidence proving
the homicidal gassings is overwhelming.
We go back to 'no holes, no holocaust' and then Faurisson's challenge awaits
you.Muller has some graphic descriptions in his book as to how the Zyklon B
gas pellets were thrown into the alleged homicidal gas cham,ber at Auschwitz
I.  Muller's descriptive powers were not questioned in 1979 - except by the
revisionists. But I forget, all this is not relevant to your argument.

By the way, I note you are corresponding with David Irving. Have you asked
him whether the $1.000 offer for the blueprints is still open?

Sincerely
Fredrick Toben









Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/21/96 11:32 PM
Received:    12/21/96 11:38 PM
From:        Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
CC:          jamie@voyager.net

>Hence, Faurisson's "No holes, no holocaust"  is a powerful statement of
>fact. Any computer modelling would indicate that technically it was not
>possible to kill people in such primitive alleged gas chambers.

Would, or does?  Have you done such modeling?

How do you know it would indicate that?

You assume, you presuppose, you believe that it would indicate what you 
say. But you don't know.  You're making a statement of faith, not fact.  
Therefore, you are precisely the animal you accuse _me_ of being:  you 
subscribe to a religion of "no Holocaust" and you will defend that 
religion whether the facts support you, or not.

There!  What I just said falls into the category of "words, words, words" 
-- and I have just shown you to be exactly what you're saying of me.  
Which of us is the heretic and which the defender of truth?  With the 
world-view you've set up, in the end it all comes down to whose side 
you're on:  whether you're right or wrong.  And I already knew that we 
are on opposite sides, I didn't need you to tell me that.

So, I choose to ignore everything you say except your arguments of fact.  
I comb your claims for reason and evidence, and I discard the rest.  I 
may not reply to those claims, simply because you have so many of them 
and I know I wouldn't accomplish anything by trying to engage you in a 
serious, long-term discussion, but you can sleep soundly knowing that I 
have read and digested them.

Your rhetorical claptrap, however, I skim over and forget as quickly as I 
possibly can.

>By the way, I note you are corresponding with David Irving. Have you asked
>him whether the $1.000 offer for the blueprints is still open?

I haven't had a chance to return his latest missive.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/









Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/22/96 1:25 AM
Received:    12/22/96 9:52 AM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
CC:          fredadin@adam.com.au

\
>Your rhetorical claptrap, however, I skim over and forget as quickly as I 
>possibly can.

You confirm for me that you do not appreciate the scientific approach which
is an open-ended approach. I have not closed my mind to any possibilities as
you have. You begin by stating the gassings happened, then go on to prove
your premise....the method used by ideologues - the wordsmiths ; I claim
that there is no physical proof. You claim there is proof - which is all hot
air from fraudulent and discredited witnesses, e.g. Filip Muller.
Do your sums and you will know that to date you have swallowed a fairy
story. Could you ever admit to yourself that you may have been conned all
therse years into believing a fantastic story?
I am still waiting for the conversion plans which fraudsters such as Dr
Gerald Fleming wish to pass off as proof that homicidal gassings
ocurred....what a leap in faith!
I still want to know - not believe....what I do believe is that I have
reached a closer approximation to the truth of the matter than you who
believes that Germans planned, constructed and used huge chemical
slaughterhouses. 
To date there is no physical proof, except in your world of words, words,
words....but not in the world of facts, in the world of physical reality.

Stay well....oh, I hear from the Zgrams that Zundel has attempted to make
contact with Mr McVay....and all he found was a postbox and a telephone line
to one of the synagogues which appears to be responsible for upholding the
Nizkor site. Can you confirm or refute this for me, please. I do like to do
independent research!

Sincerely
Fredrick Toben


>>By the way, I note you are corresponding with David Irving. Have you asked
>>him whether the $1.000 offer for the blueprints is still open?
>
>I haven't had a chance to return his latest missive.
>
>--
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
>
>
>













Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/22/96 11:14 AM
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au

>You confirm for me that you do not appreciate the scientific approach which
>is an open-ended approach. I have not closed my mind to any possibilities as
>you have. You begin by stating the gassings happened, then go on to prove
>your premise....the method used by ideologues - the wordsmiths ; I claim
>that there is no physical proof. You claim there is proof - which is all hot
>air from fraudulent and discredited witnesses, e.g. Filip Muller.

The first sixty-four words above are assertions;  the last thirteen words
are a whopping lie.

If you truly think I have closed my mind to the possibility that Elvis is
alive, or that Bigfoot stalks North Dakota, or that the Holocaust is an
invention of the Freemasons, please -- prove it!

If you truly think I have "stat[ed] the gassings happened, then go on to
prove [my] premise" -- quote me, cite some of my own words to demonstrate
this.

Until you start quoting me and explaining what it means, you got nothing
on me.  I'm a skeptic, I approach any claims with an open but decisive
mind.  Holocaust-denial is no better or worse than any other claim in that
regard.  I've examined a number of its premises and subpremises with an
open mind, and have made decisions about them (most of which you disagree
with).  That is the meaning of skepticism and the antithesis of what you
assert about me.

Now -- if you disagree with what I've just said about myself, start
presenting evidence to demonstrate my closed-mindedness.  START QUOTING
ME.

And if you're not going to do that, don't waste your breath, because
you're repeating yourself and I'm no longer interested.

>To date there is no physical proof,

Again, a baldfaced lie.  Forensic tests of the Leichenkeller ventilation
grates done in the 1940s, forty years before Leuchter, showed cyanide
deposits and proved that the Leichenkeller (== "morgues") were not morgues
at all.

That's one link in a long, long chain of physical evidence.  You're
clearly not interested in the rest of it, but if you were, you might want
to start by visiting .

>Stay well....oh, I hear from the Zgrams that Zundel has attempted to make
>contact with Mr McVay....and all he found was a postbox and a telephone line
>to one of the synagogues which appears to be responsible for upholding the
>Nizkor site. Can you confirm or refute this for me, please. I do like to do
>independent research!

I have no idea what Mr. Zuendel attempted to find.  If he told me the sky
was blue, I'd step outside and check.

Apparently Mr. Zuendel called the telephone number listed in the
internet's Whois database, and got the British Columbia synagogue at the
other end.  And, he drove to the address listed for donations at
 and found not a roomful of computers,
but a drop-box (at, I believe, that same synagogue, but I'd have to check
whether that's true).

Mr. Zuendel appears to have given you the implication that the synagogue
"upholds the Nizkor site," which is either false or meaningless depending
on how you look at it.  Please, feel free to explain to me what other
inferences you have drawn from Mr. Zuendel's trip to our donations
drop-box.

Mr. Zuendel is well aware of Mr. McVay's email address, and of the fact
that Mr. McVay has stood ready to discuss the Holocaust with him on
alt.revisionism for the past 4.5 years.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/







Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/22/96 5:42 PM
Received:    12/22/96 4:50 PM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net

At 11:14 22/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>You confirm for me that you do not appreciate the scientific approach which
>>is an open-ended approach. I have not closed my mind to any possibilities as
>>you have. You begin by stating the gassings happened, then go on to prove
>>your premise....the method used by ideologues - the wordsmiths ; I claim
>>that there is no physical proof. You claim there is proof - which is all hot
>>air from fraudulent and discredited witnesses, e.g. Filip Muller.
>
>The first sixty-four words above are assertions;
 
Indeed - 

 the last thirteen words 
>are a whopping lie.

Fancy you counting the words...reminds me of Wittgenstein's nonsense
approach who claimed that if only we were to clarify our language use, then
we would solve all our problems.  

>
>If you truly think I have closed my mind to the possibility that Elvis is 
>alive, or that Bigfoot stalks North Dakota,
Why bring in these items - like Lipstadt's 'the earth is flat' comment.
Little bit of rhetoric, Mr McCarthy?

 or that the Holocaust is an 
>invention of the Freemasons, please -- prove it!
When did the Freemason's get into the act here? Are you sure you have the
correct password for that?
>
>If you truly think I have "stat[ed] the gassings happened, then go on to 
>prove [my] premise" -- quote me, cite some of my own words to demonstrate 
>this.
>Slippery, as usual!

>Until you start quoting me and explaining what it means, you got nothing 
>on me. 

Here we have it. Why would I want to get something on you? I'm not
interested in you as a person. I know enough about your work, i.e. that you
push the idelogical 'it happened' line, that you are a German hater who
spreads the false and unproven allegation that Germans used homicidal gas
chambers at, e.g. Auschwitz.
 I'm a skeptic, I approach any claims with an open but decisive 
>mind.

I doubt that because you are supporting a dogma- and you would be off the
Nizkor team if you head your site - "We are skeptics who are not certain
about the homicidal gassings", etc.

  Holocaust-denial is no better or worse than any other claim in 
>that regard. 

Why make it denial - why not affirmation, as in your case? You are defending
the billion dollar dogma with your mind!
 I've examined a number of its premises and subpremises with 
>an open mind, and have made decisions about them (most of which you 
>disagree with).  That is the meaning of skepticism and the antithesis of 
>what you assert about me.
and what about my synthesis?
>
>Now -- if you disagree with what I've just said about myself, start 
>presenting evidence to demonstrate my closed-mindedness.  START QUOTING 
>ME.
What you have just stated is mere words......publish the fact that Jamie
McCarthy, like a good ( but rare) scientist is a doubter-skeptic.
 
>
>And if you're not going to do that, don't waste your breath, because 
>you're repeating yourself and I'm no longer interested.

What a shame, Jamie. Don't spit the dummy. We are just beginning to get to
the nitty gritty, and I am slowly understanding you some more. All good
stuff for me to hear you write all this.
>
>>To date there is no physical proof,
>
>Again, a baldfaced lie. 
Not a hairy one? 
 Forensic tests of the Leichenkeller ventilation 
>grates done in the 1940s, forty years before Leuchter, showed cyanide 
>deposits and proved that the Leichenkeller (== "morgues") were not 
>morgues at all.
Please, do you really believe all this? I recall the Monkeys singing a song
about "I'm a believer"..........you are a believer in the Holocaust dogma...

>
>That's one link in a long, long chain of physical evidence.  You're 
>clearly not interested in the rest of it, but if you were, you might want 
>to start by visiting .

I have - and it doesn't convince. 

>
>>Stay well....oh, I hear from the Zgrams that Zundel has attempted to make
>>contact with Mr McVay....and all he found was a postbox and a telephone line
>>to one of the synagogues which appears to be responsible for upholding the
>>Nizkor site. Can you confirm or refute this for me, please. I do like to do
>>independent research!
>
>I have no idea what Mr. Zuendel attempted to find.  If he told me the sky 
>was blue, I'd step outside and check.
Why this shitting on Zundel? What don't you like about him? I don't share
his politics but I can respect his tenacity and his will to clear the
Germans of this massive false allegation.
>
>Apparently Mr. Zuendel called the telephone number listed in the 
>internet's Whois database, and got the British Columbia synagogue at the 
>other end.  And, he drove to the address listed for donations at 
> and found not a roomful of 
>computers, but a drop-box (at, I believe, that same synagogue, but I'd 
>have to check whether that's true).
>
>Mr. Zuendel appears to have given you the implication that the synagogue 
>"upholds the Nizkor site," which is either false or meaningless depending 
>on how you look at it.  Please, feel free to explain to me what other 
>inferences you have drawn from Mr. Zuendel's trip to our donations 
>drop-box.
I am merely going on what I read in the Zundelgram - it appears that Zundel
wanted to meet with McVay face-to-face and that didn't happen.
I share such sentiments - I, too, want to meet people face-to-face and talk.
And Zundel can talk!
>
>Mr. Zuendel is well aware of Mr. McVay's email address, and of the fact 
>that Mr. McVay has stood ready to discuss the Holocaust with him on 
>alt.revisionism for the past 4.5 years.
Yes, but to do an itnerview with him for Zundel's TV show was the aim, I think.


Stay well, Mr McCarthy - the only valuable impulse I received from your
response is your assertion that you are a Holocaust skeptic...is that right?
Or are you 100% convinced that "it happened"? Perhaps you can take the
trouble to just answer that question.
Thanks
Sincerely
Fredrick Toben








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/22/96 4:55 PM
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au

>I'm not
>interested in you as a person. I know enough about your work, i.e. that you
>push the idelogical 'it happened' line, that you are a German hater

I stopped reading after those last five words.  My response, if I had the
poor taste to share it, would consist of two words.

I don't think we're getting anywhere with this personal discussion.  If
the Adelaide Institute wishes to continue its correspondence with Nizkor,
please address it to me as an open letter.  Thank you.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/









Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/22/96 10:14 PM
Received:    12/22/96 11:59 PM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net

At 17:00 22/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>I'm not
>>interested in you as a person. I know enough about your work, i.e. that you
>>push the idelogical 'it happened' line, that you are a German hater
>
>I stopped reading after those last five words.  My response, if I had the 
>poor taste to share it, would consist of two words.
>
>I don't think we're getting anywhere with this personal discussion.  If 
>the Adelaide Institute wishes to continue its correspondence with Nizkor, 
>please address it to me as an open letter.  Thank you.
>
>--
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
>
>
>Where is your courage and staying power to see this thing through, Jamie?
Fredrick








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/23/96 12:22 AM
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au

>>I don't think we're getting anywhere with this personal discussion.  If 
>>the Adelaide Institute wishes to continue its correspondence with Nizkor, 
>>please address it to me as an open letter.  Thank you.

>Where is your courage and staying power to see this thing through, Jamie?

Courage I have.  Time to waste on bullshit, I don't.  If the Adelaide
Institute wishes to continue its correspondence with Nizkor, please
address it to me as an open letter.  Thank you.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/23/96 3:46 AM
Received:    12/23/96 2:54 AM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net

At 00:24 23/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>>I don't think we're getting anywhere with this personal discussion.  If 
>>>the Adelaide Institute wishes to continue its correspondence with Nizkor, 
>>>please address it to me as an open letter.  Thank you.
>
>>Where is your courage and staying power to see this thing through, Jamie?
>
>Courage I have.  Time to waste on bullshit, I don't.  If the Adelaide 
>Institute wishes to continue its correspondence with Nizkor, please 
>address it to me as an open letter.  Thank you.
>
>--
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
>
>
>My, my, Jamie, you are losing your plot. It must be your youthful
appreciation of contentious issues that causes you to use expletives.
I can see now that you are an intolerant person full of hatred for
truth-seeking individuals. You have constructed a vast mental construct
which is full of bull-shit - and you will live to see it crumble as the
revisionists make more headway in their quest to expose the hoax of the
twentieth century. Why don't you join us on this the final intellectual
journey of the twentieth century? Or are you afraid to have to admit to
yourself that you have been living on a massive lie?
You seem to me a dogmatist rather than a sceptic. Parasites need to ride on
a host body. Those who sustain the homicidal gas chamber story are just
that. Now they need the protection of the law to keep their obscene story
afloat. I stand here without any special protection. I am not frightened of
anybody - and I certainly  do not invoke this feigned hurt in order to
sustain an ideology. I would consider that a corruption of my personal moral
integrity. After all, I sustain myself by asking probing questions - and the
German hatred you propagate is just hiding your personal need for a scape goat.
In time I shall publish our little email correspondence - for the sake of my
son's future.
What a pity you threw in the towel, Jamie!
Sincerely
Fredrick








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/23/96 3:06 AM
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au

>German hatred you propagate

...again, that two-word response which I mentioned earlier comes to
mind...

>In time I shall publish our little email correspondence - for the sake of my
>son's future.
>What a pity you threw in the towel, Jamie!

I've not done so -- if the Adelaide Institute wishes to correspond with
Nizkor, please send it to me directly marked as an open letter.  Make that
clear when you publish our correspondence without asking for my
permission, please.

I continue to correspond with anyone who has the remotest chance of being
open-minded -- in any case where it might possibly do the slightest bit of
good.  You do not qualify.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/23/96 9:15 AM
Received:    12/23/96 11:34 AM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
CC:          fredadin@adam.com.au

At 03:06 23/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>German hatred you propagate
>
>...again, that two-word response which I mentioned earlier comes to 
>mind...
>
>>In time I shall publish our little email correspondence - for the sake of my
>>son's future.
>>What a pity you threw in the towel, Jamie!
>
>I've not done so -- if the Adelaide Institute wishes to correspond with 
>Nizkor, please send it to me directly marked as an open letter.  Make 
>that clear when you publish our correspondence without asking for my 
>permission, please.
>
>I continue to correspond with anyone who has the remotest chance of being 
>open-minded -- in any case where it might possibly do the slightest bit 
>of good.  You do not qualify.
>
My dear Jamie 
You have now set yourself up to determine  what is good in our
debate.....'good' meaning that you must believe in the homicidal gassing
story because of some material passed off as definitive proof, for example,
some ordinary plans of a mortuary which are passed off by you, et al, as
proving that a mortuary was converted into a homicidal gas chamber.Such
blatant falsification tricks belong to the witches' trial mentality where
guilt was already pre-determined. For example, an alleged witch was put in a
bag, then thrown into a river. If she drowned immediately, then that proved
her guilt; if she floated a little on top of the surface, then that was
proof that she was using witchcraft in an attempt to defeat the holy
sentence of death! So, too, it is with those who preach  about the alleged
homicidal gas chamber story as being beyond factual doubt. 

You have decided to preach to the converted or those gullible enough
uncritically to swallow your interpretation - which massively defames the
German people by alleging that they actually exterminated European Jewry in
homicidal gas chambers. This is pure German hatred - and you are so good at
it that you cannot even see what you are doing.
 
I am still not convinced that this happened and I shall continue to doubt
this. My philosophical training demands that I remain open to new impulses.
You are not a sceptic because you believe in the homicidal gas chamber story. 
I have stopped believing a long time ago  because I want to know. I opened
myself to Lipstadt's, Fleming's-van Pelt's and your assertions about the
conversion plans.
Germar Rudolf is on the run from his native land because he falsifies the
homicidal gas chamber working hypothesis-theory-story. Think about it,
Jamie, and don't tell me that such draconian laws are there to stop Germans
from defaming the memory of the dead. I am already waiting for you to pull
out the Nazi card and use it against me; or, as you did against Mr David
Brockschmidt, the anti-Jewish, antisemitic card when you run out of arguments. 
You are a believer and I am a sceptic, a heretic, a protester - but I am not
nihilistic about it because I am not a hedonist. The search for truth - and
I admit this phrase is getting rather over exposed - is not for those who
lack courage. 

Finally, Jamie, did you read our 50th edition newsletter? There is not much
more to be said about the controversy in broad outline and we don't intend
to become ideologically engaged in propagating a myth - the myth of the six
million, as you are doing in all the massive amounts of material that is on
the Nizkor site. Imagine, all this material rests on a premise which may be
false. Could you look yourself in the mirror if this premise is founded on a
lie, if not a lie, then on a massive error? I would like you to answer that one!
 Testimony, etc. has now been replaced by forensic evidence. What a pity
that the death books, railway records, etc. are not being opened to all, and
one may ask, why are other files kept under lock and key? Is it a fear of a
resurgent National Socialism? Making such an assertion is pulling out the
cards - the race card, the hate card, the antisemitic card, the anti-Jewish
card, etc.  How lucky the Israelis are in that they open their archives
after , I think, 20 years. Tom Segev has done a sterling job in his The
Seventh Million by exposing some myths which attempted to hide the fact that
is a creation of Germany.

Stay well, Jamie, and let me have your considered opinions on the above
matter - don't throw in the towel yet, our exchange of thoughts is valuable.
Sincerely
Fredrick









Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/23/96 11:51 AM
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
CC:          jamie@voyager.net

>our exchange of thoughts is valuable.

It's not valuable because it's not an exchange.  You rarely if ever
respond to what I say.  Rather, you type in pages and pages of rhetorical
blather under the theory that if people read _enough_ nonsense written
from your perspective, they will magically be persuaded.  Well, I'm not
persuaded by namedropping, changing the subject, and evidenceless
assertions.  I respond to facts and arguments.  Furthermore, your
_repeated_ statements that I hate Germans have really ticked me off -- I'm
not even going to get into that, because the truth would be utterly wasted
on you.

Finally, your stated intention to publish our one-sided "exchange" --
rudely, without asking for my permission -- makes it clear to me why
you've been monologuing me for the past few days.  Evidently, you intend
to collect your thoughts and publish them.  You would have done just as
well if you'd simply done that in the first place (rather than sending
them to me first so you could ignore my responses).

Because of all those reasons, I see no reason for us to continue a
personal conversation.  You can continue to lecture me if you like, but it
will do you as much good to stuff your factless, unreferenced claptrap
into a bottle and set it adrift.

If you'd like to label your communiques as officially from the Adelaide
Institute, and directed to the attention of the Nizkor Project, rather
than me personally, that's another matter.  As a webmaster of Nizkor, part
of my "job" as I see it is responding to open letters.  I shall continue
to do that.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/







Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/23/96 9:59 PM
Received:    12/24/96 12:00 AM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
CC:          fredadin@adam.com.au

My dear Jamie. You are doing well now. Here, in draft form, is how I shall
head our brief exchange concerning the problem of the vexed homicidal gas
chamber story. Please let me have your comments on this - you see, I still
value basic common law princioples such as natural justice. Here is your
opportunity for a right of reply:


1. Jamie McCarthy pretends to be a sceptic, yet he cannot let go of his
basic need to believe in the Holocaust dogma which states that homicidal gas
chambers operated at Auschwitz.

2. McCarthy is full of hatred for anything German. He may camouflage this by
claiming that he hates the Nazis - but he knows full well that the terms
Nazi and German are synonymous.

3. He pretends objectivity when in fact he revels in subjectivity. His
dialectic gymnastics enable him to avoid physical reality thereby escaping
from the challenges that forensic examinations of the alleged homicidal gas
chambers have produced.

4. For McCarthy the homicidal gas chamber story is set in concrete. It
happened! Faurisson's NO HOLES - NO HOLOCAUST does not make any sense to
McCarthy. Why not? 

5. His faith in the reality and truthfulness of the extermination story is
the reason for his work at Nizkor, the website which is dedicated to
propagate German hatred. This kind of scape-goating is foreign to those who
have a mature appreciation of human nature.
 
6. Jamie McCarthy and Nizkor have a catalyst function which projects
anti-German hatred around the globe. 

7.Is there any hope that this young man's mind will mature beyond the chains
of dogma?( why am I under the impression that Mr McCarthy is young and naive?) 

8. His mind will develop if he augments his dialectic processes. Some solid
Kantian philosophy  will liberate it from the dialectic straight jacket
which shrouds the homicidal gas chamber dogma. 

9. Will he have the strength and courage to free himself from this dogma?
Yes, he can do it if he begins to value the truth concept which has no home
in the dialectic thought process.

10. It may mean that he would be faced with some loss of pride, but that is
then already an indication of his maturation process embracing moral values.

11. It may also mean that his days at Nizkor are numbered. Any doubting of
the basic premise upon which the Nizkor projects operates is fatal to those
who believe in the homicidal gas chamber story.

12. Interestingly, for the real sceptics the Holocaust story has become a
religion and is therefore beyond a rational grasp. Hence the frenzy to build
shrines to a fading belief system. Add to that emotional outbursts, the
attempts to huff and bluff people into silence, the verbal,  physical and
legal attacks upon those who question the veracity of the physical claims
made by the believers, and we have an irrational phenomenon called "the
belief that Germans killed European Jewry in homicidal gas chambers".

13. Mr McCarthy has dedicated a considerable portion of his life to
upholding this belief. Anyone who does not share his belief is called a
Holocaust denier. For him a denier is someone who doubts the homicidal gas
chamber story - and for McCarthy there is no doubt about that. For him it is
a physical reality that Germans operated homicidal gas chambers. To date he
has shied away from forensically investigating or physically re-constructing
such a murder weapon. Why?

Fredrick Toben
Adelaide 
24 December 1996

  










Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/24/96 12:33 AM
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au

>Please let me have your comments on this -

Well, I guess this is the wrap-up to my sorry little attempt at two-way
discussion. Here are my comments:

>1. Jamie McCarthy pretends to be a sceptic, yet he cannot let go of his
>basic need to believe in the Holocaust dogma which states that homicidal
>gas chambers operated at Auschwitz.
>
>2. McCarthy is full of hatred for anything German.

I got this far and once again realized that you are so _completely_
off-base with your most fundamental points that I really don't care where
you're headed with this line of argumentation.  I just skimmed the rest,
and found it to be in the same vein:  McCarthy is this, McCarthy is that,
McCarthy thinks this.  Not a scrap of evidence about the Holocaust was
presented.

I would have interest in defending myself if I thought for a moment that
you'd digest a single word I wrote.  I don't.  Thus, I no longer am
writing for your benefit;  I'm writing "for the record" so that future
observers of our tiny conversation can see exactly why I'm ignoring your
rhetoric.

(For example, observers:  I wrote on the 22nd that "Forensic tests of the
Leichenkeller ventilation grates done in the 1940s...proved that
the...'morgues'...were not morgues at all."  Toben's response was to
ignore:  "Please, do you really believe all this? I recall the Monkeys
[sic] singing a song about 'I'm a believer'..."  Yet on the 23rd _he_
accuses _me_ of doing _precisely_ the same thing:  "[McCarthy's] dialectic
gymnastics enable him to avoid physical reality thereby escaping from the
challenges that forensic examinations of the alleged homicidal gas
chambers have produced."  What I wrote was completely ignored.)

(For another example:  Mr. Toben has been trying all this time to prove
that I'm not really a skeptic, that I'm not really open-minded, and that
I'm really a German-hater.  After hearing these accusations, I asked him
for proof:  "quote me, cite some of my own words to demonstrate
this...start presenting evidence to demonstrate my closed-mindedness. 
START QUOTING ME."  He refused to do so, and only commented that I was
being:  "Slippery, as usual!"  He then went on to repeat his previous
false assertions:  "I'm not interested in you as a person. I know enough
about your work, i.e. ... that you are a German hater..."  There's no
possible response to that.  I gave him a chance to make his case, and he
refused.  Discussion I will participate in.  But I have no interest in an
insult-contest, which is what this appears to be.)

For the third time -- you still haven't asked me if it would be all right
to publish our email transactions.  I've been gently reminding you because
I think it's rude not to ask.  (For the record, I've only published email
without permission once, when a rabid Jew-hater told me he was glad "six
megakikes" got killed.)

Even though you haven't been kind enough to ask, my answer is yes, please
_do_ publish everything I've sent you in the last three days.  In fact,
please do _not_ use paraphrases or quotes from my email unless you either
include complete quotes from me on the subject in question, or provide a
link to a complete copy of that email I wrote.

In particular, I explicitly ask you _not_ to state that I am terminating
our conversation unless you make it crystal-clear, in the same paragraph,
that I informed you that I only wanted to cease our _personal_
correspondence because it was getting us nowhere, and that you are still
welcome to write an official open letter to Nizkor in my attention, in the
name of the Adelaide Institute.  Best would be to link to the several
times when I've stated this.

If you fail to do any of that, then the least you can do, the very bare
minimum, is to allow me to collect our correspondence on a web page of my
own, and for you to add a _prominent_ cross-link to that web page of mine
at my request.

As long as you respect those wishes of mine, you are welcome to publish
your wild speculations and your lies about me, which you enumerated in
your previous email.  I've been lied about before, and I'm sure many
people will lie about me in future.  It doesn't bother me as long as the
truth is readily available.  As long as you provide prominent links to
what I actually said, and people are easily able to see that you're
dealing in inventions and conjecture, I have no worries that the truth
will out.

Of course, I don't have any way to make you respect my wishes;  if you
want to lie about what I've said and not make my own words easily
available, I can't stop you.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/25/96 2:44 AM
Received:    12/25/96 10:53 PM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
CC:          irimland@interlog.com
             ezundel@cts.com
             RAWidmann@aol.com
             DvdThomas@aol.com
             brsmith@lightspeed.net
             hoffman@hoffman-info.com
             Arthur Butz, butz@delta.eecs.nwu.edu
             justin49@nwlink.com
             fredadin@adam.com.au

[unrevised]
Jamie, here is what I shall put on the net. 

FREDRICK TOBEN'S 1996 CHRISTMAS CORRESPONDENCE WITH JAMIE MCCARTHY 

On 21 December 1996 Fredrick Toben sustained a five day email correspondence
with Jamie McCarthy. Here is Toben's final letter to McCarthy. It contains
McCarthy's concluding remarks made in his 24 December letter:

Jamie McCarthy: ...........As long as you respect those wishes of mine, 
you are welcome to publish your wild speculations and your lies about me,
which you enumerated in your previous email.  I've been lied about
before, and I'm sure many people will lie about me in future. 
It doesn't bother me as long as the truth is readily available. 
As long as you provide prominent links to what I actually said, and
people are easily able to see that you're dealing in inventions and 
conjecture, I have no worries that the truth will out.

Of course, I don't have any way to make you respect my wishes;  if you 
want to lie about what I've said and not make my own words easily 
available, I can't stop you.
========================================

My dear Jamie

It is Christmas day and contrary to your expressed views I think my exercise
has been a success. Many individuals who do not accept the Holocaust dogma
feel the way you now feel  - not being listened to, lied about, misquoted,
ridiculed, ignored and hurt. You are fortunate in that you have a sharp mind
and a means of expressing and ventilating your thoughts to a wider audience.
 
How would you feel, what would you think, if I had the power  to stop you
expressing your thoughts on the Holocaust dogma? 

What would be your response if I now imposed legal sanctions  on your work?
Say, five years prison or a $50.000 fine, or both, for your asserting that
the homicidal gas chambers did exist, i.e. reverse the claim and have the
official dogma  state that the gas chambers did not exist?

How would you like to be terrorised - physically attacked, house burnt down,
parcel bombed, taken through the expensive court system to break down your
physical and mental resistance to alien ideas - for upholding your right not
to investigate the non-homicidal gas chamber dogma?

EMPATHETIC UNDERSTANDING - what if?

Jamie, I call on your empathetic understanding and perhaps, if you have the
time, you could answer the following  for me:

1. What if you had a friend, an Auschwitz survivor, who tells you that he
never saw the homicidal gas chambers but that he had been through the
showering and hair cutting process without incurring any harm at all?

2. What if your Auschwitz survivor friend tells you about the swimming pool
that he swam in while living at the camp?

3. What if your survivor friend tells you about the cultural life of the
camp which  included listening to classical music played by the camp
orchestra, and for those who needed it, a visit to the  brothel?

4. What if your Auschwitz survivor friend tells you that he could not
publish his story because no publisher was interested in hearing from an
Auschwitz survivor who did not talk about the "gas ovens",  without
mentioning the homicidal gas chamber story ?

5. What if your survivor friend tells you that he cannot openly talk about
his brother who spent the entire war years on a farm outside Berlin because
after the war his brother claimed to have been incarcerated at Auschwitz -
and that this claim has been financially honoured by the German government?

6. What if your survivor friend tells you that  his parents officially died
at Auschwitz when in fact his mother recently died in New York and his
father in Jerusalem?

7. What if your survivor friend tells you that the only nasty persons in the
camp were the Jewish Kapos, those who were in charge of running internal
camp matters?

8. What if your survivor friend tells you that, until the typhoid epidemic
swept through Auschwitz, the camp was a reasonably civilized place which
naturally had the usual social problems found in any large township community?

9. What if your Auschwitz survivor friend tells you that a number of his own
Auschwitz survivor friends have been telling lies for many years about the
alleged homicidal gas chambers that they claimed existed at Auschwitz?

10. What if your survivor friend tells you that he has received anonymous
death threats because he wrote a few letters to the newspapers wherein he
questions the veracity of the Holocaust dogma, in particular the alleged
homicidal gas chamber story?

11.What if your Auschwitz survivor friend tells you that most of his former
inmate friends are bitter people who now pathologically hate anything German?

12.. What if your survivor friend tells you that The Rudolf Report -
download available from Adelaide Institute's site - contains the latest
forensic findings which conclusively refute any claim that Auschwitz had a
homicidal gas chamber facility? Would you support the legal persecution that
Rudolf is now suffering at the hands of the German government? How would you
explain it to your children that Germar Rudolf is the father of two small
children and that he, together with his wife, is now on the run from German
justice because he did not wish to spend 14 months in prison for having
written an honest objective report which demolishes the holocaust dogma?

13. What if your Auschwitz survivor friend tells you that about four weeks
ago, respected German historian, Professor Hans Mommsen, publicly claimed
that Hitler didn't really want the war and that Hitler seemed to have
slipped into it? 


Thank you for participating in this exercise, Jamie, and contrary to what
you have stated,I believe that we have had a good productive dialogue.
Kindest regards and all the best for the festive season.

Fredrick Toben
Adelaide Institute

============================

RECIPIENTS, and readers of this correspondence, greetings to you. Please
feel free to post this correspondence on your site.1996 has been a
productive year for us. We have succeeded in opening up encrusted thought
patterns - desperation is setting in as the legal screws are applied in a
frenzy to the protesters, the dissenters, the heretics of the holocaust dogma.

I shall have a hearing before our Human Rights Commission before March 1997
and shall vigorously defend the allegations brought before it by the
Executive Council of Australian Jewry, who is merely acting on behalf of the
Los Angeles based Simon Wiesenthal Centre who, in turn, is acting on behalf
of World Jewry. I am not claiming that this is a conspiracy. What we have
here is merely people acting in concert. 

Let us therefore, in 1997, produce for the world stage a wonderful
revisionist concert - and salute those brave individuals who in their own
way and at considerable personal expense and sacrifice dared to challenge
the Holocaust dogma:

Conscious of my own failings in not offering a complete list, I think of
Paul Rassinier, Harry Barnes, Robert Faurisson, Arthur Butz, Fred Leuchter,
Ernst Zundel, Wilhelm Staglich, Thies Christophersen, Ditlieb Felderer, Udo
Walendy, Gunter Deckert, Germar Rudolf, Jim Keegstrar, Malcolm Ross, Achmed
Rahmi, Doug Collins, Friedrich Berg, Henry Roques, Charles Weber,  Hans
Schmidt, Manfred Junger, John Bennett, Andreas Rohler, Hans-Dietrich Sander,
Peter Topfer, Georges Piscoci, Michael Hoffman, David Irving, Ingrid
Rimland, Mark Weber, Greg Raven, Jurgen Graf, Bradley Smith, David Cole,
Carlo Mattogno, Robert Countess, John Sack, Serge Thion, Marc Lemire,
Wigbert Grabert, and the many individuals who have stood behind those whose
names appear above.
 
In the latter category there are the legal eagles who accepted the
challenges knowing full well that they will never recover their legal costs
from the proceedings in defending Holocaust heretics, such as Doug Christie,
Hajo Herrmann, Ed Wall, Herbert Schaller,  Some members of the legal
fraternity have spent over $100,000 of their time - all for free, for the
cause in which they believe. Some have not even been thanked for their
unpaid work!

It is appropriate at this point to spare a thought for Professor Israel
Shahak who, only the other day, has had his home raided by Israeli security.
We immediately think of Mordecai Vanunu who, for over a decade, has
languished in solitary confinement - with his mind and will-power still
in-tact! But a decade fades into insignificance if we recall Rudolf Hess'
sentence - then to be dispatched by strangulation.

Let us also during the festive season offer a prayer of forgiveness for
public prosecutor Klein of Mannheim for being so misguided in his zealous
pursuit of Holocaust heretics. 

We should now extend our commiserations to Deborah Lipstadt, Gerald Fleming,
Raul Hilberg, Christopher Browing, Gitta Sereny, Eberhard Jackel, Wolfgang
Benz, Michael Wolfsohn, Konrad Kwiet, Heinz Kent and the ever dwindling
number of individuals who are faced with the daunting task of upholding the
Holocaust dogma.Their strength lies in having at their disposal unlimited
funds and public sympathy.

To all those who are taking part in this final intellectual adventure of the
twentieth century let me extend my personal hopes that 1997 will be an
extraordinarily productive year for revisionists.

Fredrick Toben
Adelaide Institute








Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/26/96 12:08 AM
To:          fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
CC:          irimland@interlog.com
             ezundel@cts.com
             RAWidmann@aol.com
             DvdThomas@aol.com
             brsmith@lightspeed.net
             hoffman@hoffman-info.com
             Arthur Butz, butz@delta.eecs.nwu.edu
             justin49@nwlink.com
             fredadin@adam.com.au
             jamie@voyager.net

What if two plus six made nine?

>Jamie, here is what I shall put on the net. 

Thanks for forwarding it to me;  as long as your webmaster respects my
requests you quoted, I've no problem.  Of course, I've already seen it
posted to a mailing list -- minus any link, of course, to my remarks in
context.  Hi ho.

If your webmaster prefers, have him contact me, and I will compile a copy
of our conversation (including this last email) and provide him with the
URL.


You've now asked me many, many times if I support the criminalization of
unpopular thought such as Holocaust denial.  I do not, of course, as I've
said over and over for years and years and as even the most cursory
examination of our site reveals.  Have you seen our home page?  What part
of "Nizkor opposes censorship in all forms" do you not understand?

If you stop by:

   http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/censorship/

you will see that Mr. Zuendel wants to criminalize speech which _he_ does
not like -- worldwide!  Are you going to go after Zuendel on this, as
vigorously as you've gone after me?

Somehow I doubt it.  Same old double standard.  Please prove me wrong.

(Cc'd to same recipient list, including Ernst Zuendel, who is again
invited to respond to the above web page.)

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/






Subject:     Re: Your Activities
Sent:        12/26/96 5:21 AM
Received:    12/26/96 4:38 AM
From:        fredrick toben, fredadin@adam.com.au
To:          jamie@voyager.net


>At 00:10 26/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>What if two plus six made nine?

Jamie, are you faltering or what? I recall Lipstadt pulling out stupid
things like that by claiming that anyone who doubts the story of the
homicidal gas chambers believes the earth is flat. Now you come along with
such abstract nosnense.

It falls in the realm of believing that Zyklon-B does not conform to natural
laws governing the behaviour of gas!

Jamie, please confirm again that you still assert:  it has been conclusively
proven that Germans planned, constructed and used homicidal gas chambers
wherein they exterminated European Jewry.

Thank you.
Fredrick Toben
Adelaide Institute
26 December 1996

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