From ceacaa@aol.com Sat Mar  2 09:39:33 PST 1996
Article: 25796 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 2 Mar 1996 01:31:10 -0500
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D. Keren wrote:
    The current status of the ceiling has nearly zero 
relevance to the question of "porous Pillars".
Keren's position is absurd.  
He denies that I have gone to Poland
He denies that I have been to Birkenau
He denies that the roof of Leichenkeller 1 Crema II still exists.
He denies that the "vents" still exist
Then he calls Ceacaa a "denier" .  At least get your English 
correct Keren.   I am a denied.

The Revisionist position is simple; go to the scene of the
crime and view the alleged "murder weapon".

The roof exists.  There are three holes in it.
Your "porous pillar  70 cm sq. could not have fit through the holes

There is a very good video done by David McCalden
Called "The Holocaust Revisited" .  Volume 3 deals
with Birkenau and the roof.  It is available from
Zundel.  Since Morris/Keren and the other Nizcor Hoaxters 
don't have the honesty to admit the roof is still there
anyone wanting to see the Truth in pictures should
order it from Zundel.


From ceacaa@aol.com Mon Mar  4 23:30:53 PST 1996
Article: 26104 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:48:12 -0500
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I thought that the Web was the way of the future
for  holding discussions. 

 Leichenkeller 1 Crema II is the so-called Gaschamber room.
It is the scene of the crime and the murder weapon.  It is
the most important place in the Holocaust story. 

     The present existence of the roof of Leichenkeller 1
Crema II is a simple fact that should be of interest to
Hoaxters like McFee or Mazal.  Instead I get japes and
catcalls from you guys...

The Revisionist or scientific position is to go to the
scene of the crime and view the murder weapon.  This is what 
I have done.  The roof is there.  It is made of concrete.
There are three holes in the roof.  There were put in
after the roof was built.

The Exterminationist or Hoaxter position varies "expert to
expert".

D. Keren.  There is no roof and (anyway) "The current status 
of the ceiling has nearly zero relevance"   Keren's position
has to be the stupidist one ever taken in the Holocaust debate.
You can tell that Keren probably teaches at a small college
or highschool.  Actually doing some on the ground research
would jeopardize his Laputan theories and show that he
is an ignorant pompus ass.  

J. Morris.  Morris seems to be all over the place.  There is
no roof; there is a roof but no holes;  there are holes but
he needs to see a photograph;  he agrees that the holes were
put in later but offers 5 absurd reasons why.  I would have expected
better of someone with the pretension to embellish his
e-mail with Latin but at least he beats Keren.  Perhaps,
he can't admit McCalden/Leutcher are right and still
impress those co-ed cowgirls from Ponoka as being
a "Holocaust resource".

G. McFee The Don Rickles of Exterminationists.  His position 
seems to be "There is no roof because F. Leuchter says there is."   

VanAlstein:  Was he the one who said the roof does not exist
because he can't see the bottom of the hole?  At least he
provided an interesting set of cites which I am still
trying to look up. Thanks again.

I think that I have put all the parties positions down correctly.
I invite readers to get the McCalden tape "Holocaust Revisited"
Volume II.








From ceacaa@aol.com Wed Mar  6 18:42:01 PST 1996
Article: 26372 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 6 Mar 1996 17:17:05 -0500
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Well, well we have our first excrement comment from
Mr. Miloslav Bilik.  He must be one of D. Keren's
"scientific peers".  

I have a feeling that Mr. Bilik was one of those weird guys 
who sat in the back of class and snickered at "things".
Today class, we are going to read "Moby Dick"   Milik giggle giggle
The Incas lived by the shores of Lake Titicaca.  Milik Yuk, yuk
The captain walked onto the poop deck         Milik   gasp, snerf snerf.

Anyway, the answers to your questions are:
Birkenau is open to the public.
At the time, a U.S citizen needed a visa to enter Poland
I have no prove that I can post




From ceacaa@aol.com Thu Mar  7 08:59:20 PST 1996
Article: 26389 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 6 Mar 1996 16:51:26 -0500
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D. Keren writes that I should 
"supply us with good photographic evidence of what you claim is there, so
we can analyze it?"  
    (I would like to but I have had poor success
scanning in photographs for posting (please, no engineer jokes).
I have tried to give the cites of photgraphs ie. Pressac at pg. 354
and the David McCalden tape.  I should think that the site of
the gaschamber should have been photographed by someone.
However, I do have some clear slides which I will try to 
put into usable form.)

 Is this why you don't tell us who you are?  (No, I get enough 
problems for being a Revisionist.  I don't want you to believe
the roof is still existant because I say so but because you
have independently confirmed it.  I somehow suspect my word
alone would not convince you even if my  initials were J.C.)

# The roof is there.  It is made of concrete.
# There are three holes in the roof. 

But doesn't Faurisson, who is considered the "leader of revisionism",
state that there are absolutely no holes in the roof?
(There are three holes in the roof, I have been through two
of them)

# D. Keren.  There is no roof and (anyway) "The current status 
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You're lying, chump. I never, ever, said that or wrote that.
(Well then, do you agree the roof is still there with three
holes in it?)

Re your insults: I'll be judged by my peers in the scientific
community.    (Wrong, you'll be judged by anyone who has
been to Birkenau, knows there is a roof with three holes in it,
and has seen that there is still re-bar in the holes. ) 



-- 
Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in concrete.


From ceacaa@aol.com Mon Mar 18 23:04:03 PST 1996
Article: 27519 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 19 Mar 1996 01:08:29 -0500
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Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Daniel Keren writes:

Will you ever provide some proof that you were in Birkenau, and
some good photographic reproduction of these 3 holes you claim
are in the roof? I think even a mentally retarded person, or
someone with a Fred Leuchter compatible brain, would understand
by now that someone who posts anonymously, without giving any
proof to anything he writes, cannot be taken seriously.

My goodness, Mr. Keren, I have cited both Pressac at pg. 354 et seq.
and the excellent David McCalden video  "Holocaust Revisited vol 2.
I am sorry that I don't have the time and money to post photographs
which would completely show that you are incorrect.

# The holes are in the position shown on the plaster model of 
# Krematorium II exhibited on the First floor of Block 4 of the
# Auschwitz main Camp.  See Pressac pg. 345 

"This is a model. Show us real photographs, or shut your trap. This
is boring already."

      So you think that the Polish Museum is lying?  Perhaps you
are just avoiding the issue of the "vents"  by obdurate obfuscation.
The fact that the vents were put in after March 1943 has some 
important ramifications.


I will probably do that one day. And if I do, I will *document*
what I see, and post it. Under my real name. Not like a mentally
retarded clown, who posts under an alias and refuses to support
what he writes.

Mr. Keren, such intemperate language.  It will make people think
that you don't have anything intellegent to write.  Although,
please let me know when you plan to visit Birkenau.  I would
like to see your face when you look at the existing roof of
the "gaschamber", the three holes, and the re-bar



-- 
Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in concrete.





From ceacaa@aol.com Sun Mar 24 15:01:32 PST 1996
Article: 27768 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sheet Metal Columns in Krema II
Date: 19 Mar 1996 01:35:48 -0500
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(John Morris) writes,


"Jean-Francois Beaulieu, "Ceacaa," and other Holocaust deniers
have been making much of the discrepancies between the
testimonies of Filip Mueller and other Sonderkommando survivors
regarding the sheet metal induction columns for Zyklon B in Krema
II at Birkenau. "

     You have entirely missed my point.  The internal consistency of
"survivor" accounts is a seperate question.  My point is that none
of the "testimonies"  jibes with the ruins presently on site.   Thus,
 your discussion of various testimonies as proof of anything is Laputan.
The existing 3 holes in the roof conflict with Muller's account, ergo
Muller is incorrect.

You are the only Hoaxter who even admits that the "vents" were 
put in after the original pour.  The true ramifications of this
seem to have escaped you.  D. Keren keeps up the ridiculous claim
that the roof of the "gaschamber"  isn't there.





From ceacaa@aol.com Sun Mar 24 15:01:38 PST 1996
Article: 27866 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 22 Mar 1996 03:41:58 -0500
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Daniel Keren writes regarding  Pressac at pg. 354 et seq.

#It shows a roof that is largely destroyed, with one hole which
Pressac suggests is one of the holes via which the Zyklon was 
inserted. #

     Now I know why poor Daniel is so slow in his lessons; he can't
read.  What Pressac writes in the caption to photo b''' is,
"North/south view of the western part of the ceiling of 
Leichenkeller 1, with the south wall at the far end.  Upper
left, the hole in the ceiling is assumed to be one of the 
Zyclon-B introduction openings, but the positions
of the two holes that can be seen today do not correspond 
to those of the US Air Force photograph taken on 25th 
August 1944."  
     Two holes that can be seen today.    
Now Daniel,  I want you to think real hard about this...
If the hole is there today, is the roof there today?

When you have figured out the answer come back
and we can talk about whether there are two holes
there today or, as I have tried to teach you, two big
holes and one little hole.





-- 
Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in concrete.

-Lu Xun.


From ceacaa@aol.com Tue Mar 26 18:55:57 PST 1996
Article: 28206 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 22 Mar 1996 04:01:57 -0500
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I am surprised when I read the long discussions 
of what the Zyclon-B introduction were like.
These discussions are held with an absolute
disregard for what is actually at the site of
the alleged "gas chambers" today.    
The scientific or Revisionist method is simple:
go to the scene of the crime and look at the
murder weapon.  I am proud to have been one
of the first Revisionists to visit the camps
and video them.
     The Revisionist position is simple:
The roof of the so-called gaschamber of Crema II
at Birkenau is 90% complete.  It is of poured in
place concrete. It has two large holes
and one small hole in it.  These holes were put in
after the original pour in about February 1943.
They were crudely chipped in and are still 
transected by re-bar.  There are no marks or
signs that would show that any fittings or
"porous pillars" were attached to the roof.  
      Further, these holes are not in the same 
position as the marks shown on the August
25, 1944 aerial photograps.


From ceacaa@aol.com Tue Mar 26 18:56:04 PST 1996
Article: 28310 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 25 Mar 1996 00:26:58 -0500
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# The best evidence would be the McCallden video from Bradley Smith
# or Zundel or send me $10 and I will make you a copy.  

To which Daniel Keren wrote:

Thanks for the offer; maybe one of the other posters here will accept
it. It is against my principles, however, to send money to or hold
personal contacts with Nazis. I would rather take a thousand of my
hard-earned dollars and burn them, than give a Nazi two bloody cents.

I have noticed two epithets come easily to D. Keren, "Liar" and "Nazi".
I think that someone who would use the above lame excuse to avoid 
learning the truth about Crema II is halfway to being a Nazi 
himself.

# positions on the roof itself.  In the August aerial photograph
# the vents are in a line down the center of the roof. 

It's different for Krema II and III; in II, they are in a
straight line, in III they are not.

In other photographs the vent holes do not show up at all, or
are all on the east side of the roof.  

The question is - what holes are you talking about? Are these,
possibly, holes torn by the explosion?

I am talking about the same 2 vent holes that Pressac is writing
about  on page 354.  Why do you Hoaxters have such a hard time 
with these holes?  They are the only holes in the roof of the
so-called gaschamber. So unless you think the explosion blew
the holes off the roof or the SS took the vent holes with them
back to Germany* you've got to explain the facts:
1.  The roof is as hard and impenetrable as Ford McGee's head;
2.  The holes were put in the roof after it was poured (01/43)
3.  The holes were crudely chipped in and the re-bar is in place still
4.  There are no fittings around the holes to secure Zyclon induction
     "pillars" .


*Ford McGee says they found a "whole salt mine full of holes"
after the war in Bavaria.

-- 
Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.


From ceacaa@aol.com Tue Mar 26 18:56:06 PST 1996
Article: 28327 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 22 Mar 1996 21:07:24 -0500
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D. Keren writes:
#I was hoping that even someone who's mentally retarded, as yourself,
#would understand already: I never claimed that the roof is not there,
#only that it is heavily damaged. 
      Ceacaa asks:  Since the roof is there, do you think that some
or all of the vent holes are in the roof?  


#I was hoping that even someone who's mentally retarded, as yourself,
#would understand already: it is impossible to accept anything you
#write as long as you don't post any evidence; a good photograph,
#for instance.
       I do not expect you to "accept" what I write.  That is why I have
cited the clear supporting evidence of Pressac and the Auschwitz
Museum.  The existing evidence at the scene of the crime is more
relevant and probative to the question of genocide (at least at
Birkenau) than 85% of what is written in alt.revisionism.  If
you were really serious about studying the matter, you exterminationists
should do a little honest research too rather than accusing
everyone else of lying.

        The best evidence would be the McCallden video from Bradley Smith
or Zundel or send me $10 and I will make you a copy.  

As to Mr. Pressac's theory that the holes "shifted" during
the partial destruction of the gaschamber:  Once you understand
what is on the site presently, it will be clear that the holes
could not have shifted their relative positions and their
positions on the roof itself.  In the August aerial photograph
the vents are in a line down the center of the roof.  In reality
the holes are staggered on the sides of the roof (exactly as
shown in the Auschwitz Museum model).  There is a large
concrete beam which runs the lenght of and supports the
ceiling of the Leichenkeller.   


      




Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in concrete.




From ceacaa@aol.com Fri Mar 29 16:59:40 PST 1996
Article: 28494 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Leuchter Report
Date: 24 Mar 1996 18:34:37 -0500
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D.D. Mittleman writes:
>    
    1. There is merit in going to the sites and examining the "murder
    weapon" if the examination is done rigorously.  There is ample
evidence
    that Leuchter did not do rigorous work.  I direct you to the Leuchter
    files at Nizkor for this evidence.

     I am not sure what you mean by "rigorous".  I think that, except 
for Mr. Pressac, the Revisionists have generally been more rigourous
in testing theories against the evidence.  I am surprised that
the vent holes of Krema II have missed any rigorous examination
by Exterminationists as have aerial photographs
     When I visitied Birkenau, my rigor was somewhat disrupted 
by having to avoid the guards.  Even so, a visit to the site
raised numerous questions about the Kremas II and III having
been used for mass exterminations (as opposed to mass 
cremations).  Right now I am just trying to focus on the
alleged murder weapon,  to so-called vents.



    2. You have been asked directly whether or not you are Fred Leuchter
    writing under a pen name.  I have not seen your response.  So I ask
you
    again, are you or are you not Fred Leuchter, Mr. Ceacaa?

      No, I am not.  I think all that started when Ford McGee tried to
think Revisionisticly although I admit to having added the initials
F.L. to a quote.  I didn't disabuse Ford because I felt it was 
therapeutic for him to vent a little.

                         daniel david mittleman 


From ceacaa@aol.com Fri Mar 29 16:59:56 PST 1996
Article: 28886 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 27 Mar 1996 00:26:48 -0500
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We should recap the importance of the vents for the
Readers.  
     One of the most common of the stories of the Holocaust
is that hundreds of thousands (or millions) of persons were 
killed by cyanide gas in one room at the crematoria II at Birkenau
Camp.  Pressac claims that 400,000 people died in this room.
He also claims that 350,000 people died in a similar room in
Crema III, a building which is a miror image of Crema II.
Thus, Crema II and Crema III are the scene of the alleged crime
and the room generally labeled Leichenkeller 1 and the vent holes
in the roof were the alleged murder weapon.
    At the time I came into this thread, the Nizcor "experts"
were writing long  confabulations about how the Zyclon pellets
were introduced into the room through "porous pillars" of sheet
metal.  Evidently, John Morris and D. Keren were unaware that
the roof of the alleged gaschamber still exists and it is possible 
to view the all important vents.  
One doesn't need to be an expert on building gaschambers to 
see that the vents were  chipped through the concrete roof 
after the roof was poured.  Quite simply, the size, position,
and present condition of the vent holes and surrounding roof
make Morris and Keren's porous pillars stories impossible.
     My belief is that three holes were chipped through the roof
as part of the demolition process in November or December of
1944

     



From ceacaa@aol.com Sun Mar 31 09:11:59 PST 1996
Article: 29087 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 29 Mar 1996 18:25:10 -0500
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John Morris writes

>The roof of the gas chamber is only 50% intact 
 [snip]
>I suspect Ceacaa believes that the gas chamber ended at the first
>underground wall away from the main building. But that wall was added
>after the SS realized that the gas chamber was simply too large. The
>remainder of the roof beyond that wall is not intact. 

     Too large?  Too large for what?
Remember that the "gaschamber" runs on a north/south axis.
It is possible to crawl under the roof from the southern wall
of the roof to within two meters of the north (and only) door
into the room.  Therefore I do not know what you are writing
about with your "first wall away from the building".
    Maybe you are just having a math problem here, John.
(I can guess that your doctorate is not in math)
If 100% of the 50% of the roof beyond the southern wall is 
destroyed and100% of the 50% of the roof of the gaschamber 
exists.  How much of the gaschamber roof exists?
100%
 50%
none.
    Remember that I chose 90% 
Anyway, 50% is still enough to work with.  What does the
existing roof show?  How many holes?  and How many
of these holes were vent holes used as part of the 
killing operations?


>My general take on denier "methodology" is that it refuses not
>only any facts that conflict with its conclusions but that
>the methodology itself is progressively trimmed so that whole
>classes of facts can be ignored. Your claim that it is sufficient
>to look at the "murder weapon" exclusive of all other
>considerations merges neatly into the standard denier
>methodology. For me to argue with you about whether you have
>properly understood the evidence of your own eyes means that I
>have to argue on your terrain. But your terrain is so rigorously
>circumscribed that you cannot come to any conclusion but, in this
>case, that the induction holes in the gas chamber were cut after
>the roof was poured, as I shall explain below.
     You are correct:  there is a vast amount of other evidence of
many types, physical evidence, photographic evidence, documentary
evidence, eye-witness testimonys or confessions.  It is not 
that I am ignoring it; I am trying to focus on a primary piece
of physical evidence and get an agreement that a several
ton piece of concrete is lying in a Polish field and has only
three holes in it.  



>When I reviewed the Nova video, the feature that struck me most
>was that the roof did appear to be only about 50% intact, as Dr.
>Keren has said. . Van Pelt, however, has confirmed only 50% of 
>the roof is sufficiently intact to determine whether there were any
>induction holes at all. He described the roof to me as being in what I
take
>to be two halves: for one half, the roof is as you describe it, a
>fairly intact slab that collapsed into the room below; for the
>other half; he describes it as being "crumpled like a piece of
>paper."

    So it appears that there is something we all can analysize.


>The thing that has always stuck in my head about the way you have
>described the three holes in the roof of L.Keller 1 (aka, the gas
>chamber) is that they sound just like chunks of the roof that
>have been displaced by the explosion that destroyed the roof in
>the first place. As I recall, you have described them as
>irregularly-shaped, crudely chipped-in, and altogether too small
>to accomodate the supposed dimensions of the sheet metal
>induction columns. You have also mentioned that the rebar is
>broken off and bent back. I would submit that what you have
>observed is exactly as I say: chunks of the roof displaced by the
>explosion and not fake induction holes added after the fact.

    I do not think that the existing holes are fakes.  I believe
that they were chipped through the roof in December 1944
as part of the demolition process.  The rebar is sawed, not
cut.

>But physical evidence is as open to skeptical interpretation as
>the wildest survivor testimony. 
     This is literaly "solid evidence", empirical evidence you
can bump your head against.



>Van Pelt suggested to me that the holes were not, as has been
>supposed, evenly spaced between the concrete support pillars, but
>that they were immediately adjacent to the concrete pillars 
      This makes more sense since there was and is a concrete
beam running between the pillars



>themselves destroyed when the pillars were dynamited to collapse
>the roof. As Van Pelt, also says, his theory about the placement
>of the holes is unprovable since they no longer exist.
     This is incorrect.  In most of the pillars, the roof pillar
connection is obvious.  No missing holes.



>What I find really interesting is that the blotches are not at
>all as irregularly spaced as might it seem from the photos. 
     As I have noted in other threads, I have wondered about
the aerial photographs too.  You may have a good point.

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