Shofar FTP Archive File: people/a/allen.andrew/1996/ceacaa.1196
From ceacaa@aol.com Fri Nov 1 11:52:35 PST 1996
Article: 78123 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 30 Oct 1996 23:50:10 -0500
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Jamie McCarthy wrote 26 Oct 1996
> And they were of course more efficient at
>incinerating corpses than the method of pit-burning.
[SNIP]
I submit that one (one!) reason for building the
>crematoria was
>to conserve fuel -- it doesn't take motor oil or
>methanol, only coke, and after the ovens are heated
>for the day, the incineration process is
>self-sustaining. The corpses themselves are the fuel.
Hold it, hold it. The Treblinka pyres were self-sustaining
(SHM). Read Pressac to learn that one needed coke to
run the Birkenau Krema.
Secondly, the Treblinka pyres were started
with wood gathered by "free" slave labor. not methanol.
>All we have seen from your responses is that
>you are eager to declare
>everything about the Holocaust to be incorrect,
>because it doesn't
>correspond to your after-the-fact analysis of
>how it _should_ have been done.
No, the "Holocaust" is not an event but the name
given to many millions of events. Many, if not most,
of the alleged events are real, to wit, the passage of
the Nuremberg Laws or the establishment of Birkenau
Camp. Many "events are not real, to wit, killing people
by steam or factories making soap out of humans.
You and I disagree on whether there was a gas
chamber at Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II at Birkenau.
The physical evidence at the scene of the crime
makes impossible the standard story of a gas chamber.
That horse has been ridden enough until we can post
pictures that even you Hoaxters can't deny.
The points re. costs of building the Kremas vs. Treblinka
style pyres and point of transporting
millions of people across Europe
are really logical inconsistancies within the
gaschamber story.
>The problem with that line of reasoning
>is that it did happen;
Ipse dixit. This is why you are known as the
Tertulian of the Nizkor set.
>all the "shoulds" in the world melt
>away in the face of solid,
>documented evidence of the slaughter
"Documented"??? Jamie, you have found a
document evidencing the killings at Birkenau? Why, this
is important news!!! Call Professor Mayer,
he says original documents are rare and
hard to find. Please post your documents
for us Jamie.
In fact, there is NO solid documented evidence.
In a modern (carbon paper equiped) bureaucracy the
lack of ANY documents relating to the
alleged killing of 1,000,000 people at
Krema II and III is a true miracle.
>which took place in those
>showerhead-filled, gas-tight-door-equipped rooms.
Gas-tight door? My refrigerator has a "gas-tight"
door on it. The Leichenkeller was a leichenkeller;
it had to be kept cool.
From ceacaa@aol.com Fri Nov 1 14:04:59 PST 1996
Article: 78143 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 1 Nov 1996 01:14:46 -0500
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Mark Van Alstine wrote on28 Oct 1996 (Ceacaa) wrote:
>> At that point, it has to be shut down for
>> a period of time to cool off, perhaps two or three
>> days. The cooling is not the real problem
>> but cracking due to too rapid a cooling.
>The Topf operating instructions for the
>double-muffle furnace simply
>states that: "Every evening, the furnace fire bars
>must be cleaned of
>clinker and the cinders removed."
>(cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.136.) There
>is no mention that the furnace _must_ be
>shutdown and cooled off before
>routine maintenance takes place.
Every evening?
>Furthermore, according to Dr. Roman Dawidowski,
>the furnaces of the crematorien required a break of
>three hours per every thwenty-four to
>allow for deslaging and other smaller
>stoppages due to constant use.
>Similar time requirements were also given
>by Sonderkommandos Henry Tauber,
>ALter Feinsleiber, and Stanislaw Kankowskin
>[KL-PMO, p.134]. (cf. Ho"ss,
>_Death Dealer_, p.45fn.)
Alright, every 24 hours a three hour break was required.
So the furnace couldn't have run more than 24 hours.
> If the furnices was not run continously, the bodies
> had to be collected until the furnice was fired-up.
>Why, Mr. Allen? Considering the incineration
>capacity of just _one_ of the
>Kremas, it would have been a simple
>matter to have whichever Krema was
>on-line that day incinerate the _entire_ "
>daily" batch of prisoners who
>died from "natural" causes.
The key is your assumption
"whichever Krema was on-line that day to
incinerate the entire daily batch of prisoners who
died from "natural" cause.
IT WAS NOT PLANNED TO KEEP ONE OF THE
KREMAS "ON-LINE" EVERY DAY. If that were planned they
would NOT have needed the Leichenkeller.
The Leichenkeller were built underground
to serve as a cool place to store bodies:
(they make a bad gaschamber but a good morgue)
They are inherently a contradiction to the idea
of continous cremation (and therefore mass
extermination).
We know that the Leichenkeller were designed and built.
From ceacaa@aol.com Fri Nov 1 14:05:01 PST 1996
Article: 78144 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 1 Nov 1996 01:14:47 -0500
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[VanAlstine]
>As for incinerations when the "special actions"
>took place? According to
>Ho"ss, the special actions took place at
>regular intervals: [snip]
>During those four to six weeks two or three trains
>containing about 2,000 persons each, arrived daily.
>Clearly, up until Aktion Ho"ss in 1944,
>the furnaces were not operating
>continuously, day in and day out for months
>on end. They were, instead,
>operated at regular intervals of a few weeks duration.
>This, of course, would have afforded the
>Auschwitz SS time to schedule and undertake
>repairs and any maintainance that required
>the furnaces to be cold.
>Given the above, may I again suggest you
>rethink your "theory," Mr. Allen?
As show above, running a furnace for a week straight
will burn it out-the quote has things cooking for 4
to 6 weeks straight. Including periods of time when
only Crema V might have been working (summer of '43)
The question boils down to how long can a furnace
be run continually. The Exterminationists MUST
believe in long or continous runs-Revisionists
probably expect short runs of two days or less.
This argument avoids the basic point:
The Leichenkeller are inherently a contradiction
to the idea of continous cremation (and therefore mass
extermination).
>> Even the local crematoria "collects" the bodies
>> for a day or two before "firing up". And the local
>> plant must deal with the constraints of dealing
>> with the public.
>What "public" was their at Birkenau, Mr. Allen?
None. That is why bodies could sit around longer
prior to a convient time to cremate them.
> Why UNDERGROUND.
>> Since a body might wait several days before 1,200
>> bodies were collected, it would have to be stored in
>> a cool place, UNDERGROUND.
>> This explains why the trouble was taken to
>>insulate the Leichenkeller and
>> put weather stripping on the door.
>And did the order for the door to L.Keller 1
>say it had "weather stripping?" No. Did it say
>that it was a "weather-tight" door? No. The
>order for the door said "gas-tight."
>Please, Mr. Allen, enough with the
>silly canards.
My construction background comming through.
Actually, you wouldn't want "weather stripping"
one would want a better seal, one that is air or gas
tight. Good point, Mark. To keep the Leichenkeller
cool, an airtight seal would be needed on the door.
> A cool place was needed until the furnice was ready to be fired up.
>For a morgue, yes. How odd then that deniers
>have claimed that the forced
>draft system that was origionally installed to
>ventilate L.Keller 1 with
>HOT AIR to keep the corpses WARM (!),
>wouldn't you agree, Mr. Allen? Of
>_course_ you do! How then do you explain
>the purpose of this hot-air
>ventilation system for L.Keller 1 if you
>(rightly so, I might add) claim
>that a morgue should be kept cool
>and contrary to this L.Keller 1 was to
>be HEATED?
>I eagerly await your next set of limp
>rationalizations and absurd canards
>in regard to this, Mr. Allen. You have yet to dissapoint!
Pressac makes a big issue of the same point. The
answer is obvious. Remember your cold Silesian
Winters? What would happen to 1,000 bodies that
got down to around 10 below 0 C? That's right,
they would be very stiff, stick to the floor,
hard to undress, check for gold, etc. It is
obvious that a morgue should not be too cold.
I would guess slightly above freezing, maybe
warmer. Of course, call your local morgue
and find out the optimum temperature for
body storage.
From ceacaa@aol.com Fri Nov 1 15:18:21 PST 1996
Article: 78151 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 1 Nov 1996 01:07:59 -0500
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Mark Van Alstine wrote on28 Oct 1996 (Ceacaa) wrote:
>> I do not think that it is possible to continuously
>> run the crematoria
>> furnice without burning out the chimney
>>or damaging the
>> ovens. Pressac mention this as happening to K.IV and K.V.
[VanAlstine's stunning admission]
>Krema IV and V suffered from design flaws
>to their 8-muffle furnace. Krema
>IV was permanently disabled due to this,
Readers please make note of this important fact.
**By May 18,1943 Krema IV was premanently disabled***
>while Krema V's furnace was
>modified and returned to service.
Actually, this is an overstatement. Pressac feels
that the operation of Krema V is uncertain but
makes a guess that 15,000 were cremated in it
in 1943.
Thus, there is a two or three month period in
1943 when:
Krema I was abandoned, permenently
Krema II was out of service,
Krema III was not yet complete,
Krema IV was abandoned, permenently
Krema V may or may not have been working.
All this is very odd if your believe in Exterminationist
theories. It proves exactly what I have asked before,
Why build millions of RM worth of crematoria which
break down when you have the proven Treblinka
"pit method" to use for free????
In the alternative, if Crematoria were so important,
why abandon Krema I and IV?
>Krema II suffered from several initial
problems:
Sure did, was shut down.
>> The operating cycle of the Kremas.
>> I believe that a furnice, once fired-up, takes an
>> hour to warm to operating temperature, and then can
>> operate for a period of several hours (I guess 12-14)
>> without damaging the interior of the chimney or the
>> muffles.
>According to Topf "it is not harmful to operate the
>incinerators day and night, if required, since the fire
>clay lasts longer when an even oven
>temperature is maintained."
>(cf. Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, >pp.71-72.)
Mark, please read what Pressac writes on page 379 of
Technique about the summer of 1943:
Kr.II had to be shut down with a damaged chimney,
IV was completely out of service and V had its furnaces
and/or chimney burnt out.
On page 386 Pressac writes: Krematoriam IV
had been in operation for one or two weeks...
1. The furnace was starting to crack.
In short, exactly what I said.
Czech and _Auschwitz Chronicle_ is wrong.
Overuse of the
Krema (not even continual use but 140 hours straight)
will and did destroy the Krema. It did it with THREE
of the FOUR Kremas when they first started opperation.
Were the Kremas REBUILT???? NOOOO.
Krema II and III were just operated according to
schedule, ie. shut down regularly.
Perhaps "Day and night" does not mean continously here;
the emphasis is on even temperature. As I posted, it
is a rapid temperature change which everybody knows
causes the most damage. The furnaces could be run
in various weather if the temperature remained
constant but running them for more than a day or two
would and did cause failure of the chimney.
From ceacaa@aol.com Sat Nov 2 09:31:04 PST 1996
Article: 78200 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 1 Nov 1996 22:41:41 -0500
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Yale F. Edeiken wrote on1 Nov 1996
Date: 1 Nov 1996 03:02:58 GMT
Message-ID: <55bp92$kd8@news.enter.net>
> ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) writes:
>> My question was why ship millions of people
>> across Europe to kill them in Birkenau when killing
>> centers were cheap and easy to set-up?
> That's your problem. The rest of the world is asking: "Why kill
>millions of people at all?"
Yale F. Edeiken,
Are you really such a morally spineless pusillanimous
whimp as to have to ask "Why kill millions of people?"
Anybody with any brains and/or any decency wouldn't
bother to ask such a stupid question. The answer is
that THERE IS NO REASON.
>"That's your problem"
Well, you are right Yale F. Edeiken,
It's my problem, why on February 22, 1943 eleven thousand
people were shipped from the railroad stations
of Demir-Hisar and Simitli in Thrace to Birkenau.
The plight of these people troubles me: I doubt that it
troubles many people but at least most people are
not like Yale F. Edeiken, at least they don't bray out
their indifference.
>The rest of the world is asking:
Well, Yale F. Edeiken, you show yourself to be a pompous
ignoramus.
"The rest of the world", in Cairo, in Jakarta, in Sao Paulo,
doesn't know much the Holocaust and isn't asking
about it.
Actually, I doubt that you are a spineless whimp,
Yale F. Edeiken. Your abrasive preamble shows that
you probably thought that you were being clever.
It is more probable that Yale F. Edeiken is an inarticulate
and boorish dolt who has taken his own limited and
self-rightous view and grandiously attributed to
"The rest of the World" rather than come up with
an intelligent argument.
Rather than go to a nice Halloween party Yale F.
Edeiken stayed home on October 31st, ate too many
miniSnickers, and posted a couplet unique in its
pretension, superciliousness and multifarious levels
of Stupidity
From ceacaa@aol.com Sat Nov 2 09:31:05 PST 1996
Article: 78264 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 2 Nov 1996 12:29:12 -0500
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Brian Harmon wrote on 1 Nov 1996
(Ceacaa) wrote:
>>The Leichenkeller were built underground
>>to serve as a cool place to store bodies:
>>(they make a bad gaschamber but a good morgue)
>>They are inherently a contradiction to the idea
>>of continous cremation (and therefore mass
>>extermination).
>And yet, the corpse chute in the Leichenkeller
>was _removed_ and annotated in the plans.
Wrong. The chute was built. It didn't show in Bauleitung
drawing 2003. The removal was not annotated.
Pressac writes in Technique pg. 303,
"This drawing was made at a time when work
was well advanced...The stairway was built,
as can be seen in the ruins, but the corpse chute
was also built..."
Again on pg. 304,
"The corpse chute was built in Krema III and
can still be seen in the ruins."
>Why remove a corpse chute from a morgue, thereby
>making it even harder to get corpses into the
>Leichenkeller?
>Simple, because 'the corpses' walked themselves into
>the leichenkeller before they were gassed.
In both K. II and III the chute was built but may have
been closed off by a wooden (removable) wall.
Corpses were first brought into Leichenkeller 2,
the room nearest the central Camp Road. There they
were undressed, checked for valuables, and other
wise "processed". They were then carried into
Leichenkeller 1 (which served as cool storage).
When the furnaces were ignited the corpses were
lifted from the basement to the level of the
crematoriam by a small elevator (Aufzug).
There was no need for a "corpse chute" into L.Keller
1 from the second level. It would have caused problems
warming the Leichenkeller during the summer
so it may have been blocked.
Thus, chute WAS built...just didn't show on a plan.
What this all really shows is how desperate
Exterminationists are for some sort of evidence
of homicidal intent.
From ceacaa@aol.com Sat Nov 2 12:28:34 PST 1996
Article: 78273 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 31 Oct 1996 18:32:01 -0500
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Mark Van Alstine wrote on28 Oct 1996 (Ceacaa) wrote:
CEACAA wrote:
>> Why then did the Germans build the alleged
>> gas chambers UNDERGROUND? This made an
>> expensive ventilation system necessary and
> > lead to a longer ventilation time.
>Because, Mr. Allen, they were _origionally_ designed as >UNDERGROUND
morgues and were to be built,
>along with the Krema, in Auschwitz I. That's
>why they were called Leichenkeller 1 and Leichenkeller 2
>on the construction plans, you know.
>(Or _don't_ you know, Mr. Allen?)
Now, now, Mark, don't be pedantic. Of course WE
know that the Leichenkeller were designed as morgues.
It is a basic Revisionist argument. I was trying to
point it out to D. Keren. Thanks for helping Mr. Keren along.
[Keren's posting]
> >#The ventilation system was not that expensive. On p.
> >#233 of "Anatomy" we see that the offer for the Krema
> >#IV and V ventilation systems was for 2,510 RM.
[back to VanAlstine]
>You "think" wrong then, Mr. Allen. The price Dr. Keren
>quoted was correct: 2,510 RM.
Yes, but that was for Krema IV and V which were
above ground and had windows. Of course their ventilation
system was much cheaper.
>Furthermore, a cast-iron blower for the
>ventilation system to
>Krema II's L.Keller 1 cost 522 RM.
>(cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.230.)
>Clearly, such costs indicate that the
>costs of the ventilation systems to
>the L.Kellers was not overly significant
>when copmpared to the overall
>cost of the Kremas.
You sound like a bureaucrat, "overly significant".
Please never get a job with the Department of Defense.
"This here missle is not 'overly significant' when
compared to the overall cost of an Aircraft Carrier.
Get real, Mark! Kremas II and III were immensely expensive;
around 2,000,000 RM. That is a WHOLE 2 RM per victim (of Auschwitz) and
that is just for disposal. If you think that
if even half of the victims (the number) were cremated
in pits, or elsewhere then you are up to 4 RMs per victim.
The Treblinka method was free.
The ventilation costs, ducting, fans etc. was a
significate cost.
>> However, the ventilation time and possible
>> breakdown problems also seem to be significant
>> disadvantages of a ventilation system and reasons
>> not to make the gaschamber underground.
>And what possible "breakdown problems"
>with the ventilation system of
>L.Keller 1 are you suggesting, Mr. Allen?
Mechanical systems break down, fan belts, rotors,
widgets. Especially new, untested ones. Nobody would
put a new expensive, untested system in when they
had a working existing system.
D. Keren's suggestion of a barn with two or three doors
is a simple logical idea which existed (SHM) at Birkenau
prior to December 1942 in the form of "the Bunker".
Do you remember that the Bunker could "handle"
2,500 victims at a time? More than Krema II.
Why build a SMALLER gaschamber, Mark?
From ceacaa@aol.com Sat Nov 2 23:15:27 PST 1996
Article: 78323 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 3 Nov 1996 00:19:47 -0500
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Mark Van Alstine wrote 02 Nov 1996
(Ceacaa) wrote:
>> The question boils down to how long can a furnace
>> be run continually....
>Obviously, for at least four to six weeks!
Six weeks! As I said...
...The Exterminationists MUST believe in long or
continous runs if their stories are going to hold
together.
The question is... can a crema furnace
run six weeks straight? I doubt it.
[snip VanAlstine's equivocations]
[snip VanAlstine's ramblings about UFO's]
>> The Leichenkeller are inherently a contradict
>> the idea of continous cremation (and therefore mass
>> extermination).
>See what I mean? Weird.
You are avoiding the question, Mark.
Why build four underground morgues if there is a
system of continous cremation? We all await
your answer
>> > Why UNDERGROUND.
> >> Since a body might wait several days before 1,200
> >> bodies were collected, it would have to be stored in
> >> a cool place, UNDERGROUND.
>> The Leichenkeller was insulated with air-tight
>> doors
>Uh huh. Amazing then, is not Mr. Allen, how all
>those "potato cellars" in the Mid-West manage
>to keep cool in the summer without air-tight doors?
Mark, I hope you know the difference between
a potato and a body.
From ceacaa@aol.com Sun Nov 3 22:09:48 PST 1996
Article: 78401 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 4 Nov 1996 00:10:48 -0500
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Mark Van Alstine WROTE ON 03 Nov 1996
> Brian Harmon wrote on 1 Nov 1996
> >#And yet, the corpse chute in the Leichenkeller
> >#was _removed_ and annotated in the plans.
>> Ceacaa wrote:
>> Wrong. The chute was built. It didn't show in Bauleitung
>> drawing 2003. The removal was not annotated.
VanAlstine writes:
>Clearly, Mr. Allen, you have lied by ommision in
>trying to offer your lame Nazi apologia as to why
>the homicidal modifications to Kremas II and III
>were _not_ a clear indication of the homicidal
>intent of the Nazis.
Uh, Mark. Was the corpse chute built or not?
and was the removal annotated in drawing 2003?
Ceacaa writes:
>> Corpses were first brought into Leichenkeller 2,
>> the room nearest the central Camp Road. There they
>> were undressed, checked for valuables, and other
>> wise "processed".
Van Alstine asks:
>And how were these "corpses" brought into L.Keller 2, Mr. Allen?
The installation of an acess stairway leading
directly from the northyard of Krematorium II to
a basement antechamber between the "goldworking"
room and the associated office, and then to the junction between
Leichenkeller 2 and 1. The western access stairway direct to Leichenkeller
2 was not yet planned [the first mention
of it found in the PMO Bauleitung files being
dated 26th February 1943],
>> They were then carried into
>> Leichenkeller 1 (which served as cool storage).
>Why would these "corpses" be carried from
>one "morgue" to another, Mr. Allen?
Leichenkeller 2 was a working room
where the corpses were undressed, searched.
Leichenkeller 1 was kept cooler for dead storage.
From ceacaa@aol.com Tue Nov 5 07:31:54 PST 1996
Article: 78575 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 5 Nov 1996 15:12:41 GMT
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Mark Van Alstine wrote 04 Nov 1996
> Mark Van Alstine WROTE ON 03 Nov 1996
>
> >># Brian Harmon wrote on 1 Nov 1996
> > >#And yet, the corpse chute in the Leichenkeller
> > >#was _removed_ and annotated in the plans.
> >>>> Ceacaa wrote:
> >>>> Wrong. The chute WAS built. It didn't show in Bauleitung
> >>>> drawing 2003. The removal was NOT annotated.
> > VanAlstine writes:
>> >Clearly, Mr. Allen, you have lied by ommision in
>> >trying to offer your lame Nazi apologia as to why
> >>the homicidal modifications to Kremas II and III
>> >were _not_ a clear indication of the homicidal
> >>intent of the Nazis.
> CEACAA asked
>> Uh, Mark. Was the corpse chute built or not?
>Mr. Allen, you dishonestly quoted Pressac.
>You lied by ommision.
CEACAA asks again
Uh, Mark. Was the corpse chute built or not?
> >>>> Ceacaa wrote:
>>>>> and was the removal annotated in drawing 2003?
[VanAlstine]
>Mr. Allen, was not the corspe chute in previous drawings?
[Ceacaa asks again]
and was the removal ANNOTATED in drawing 2003?
THE USE OF THE LEICHENKELLERS AS LEICHENKELLERS
>>> Ceacaa writes:
> >> Corpses were first brought into Leichenkeller 2,
> >> the room nearest the central Camp Road. There they
> >> were undressed, checked for valuables, and other
> >> wise "processed".
>. Van Alstine asks:
> >And how were these "corpses" brought into L.Keller 2, Mr. Allen?
>> The installation of an acess stairway leading
>> directly from the northyard of Krematorium II to
>> a basement antechamber between the "goldworking"
>> room and the associated office, and then to the junction >>between
>> Leichenkeller 2 and 1. The western access stairway >>direct to
Leichenkeller
>> 2 was not yet planned [the first mention
>> of it found in the PMO Bauleitung files being
>> dated 26th February 1943],
> >> They were then carried into
> >> Leichenkeller 1 (which served as cool storage).
>
> >Why would these "corpses" be carried from
> >one "morgue" to another, Mr. Allen?
> Leichenkeller 2 was a working room
> where the corpses were undressed, searched.
> Leichenkeller 1 was kept cooler for dead storage.
[VanAlstine]
>Kept cooler? I see. I guess that's why Pru"fer
> planned to HEAT L.Keller 1,
>eh, Mr. Allen? Too keep it "cooler."
A morgue is not a frozen meat locker, Mark.
For three or four months of the year, the room
would probably have to be kept above freezing.
From ceacaa@aol.com Tue Nov 5 17:44:57 PST 1996
Article: 78578 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 5 Nov 1996 15:14:36 GMT
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Mark Van Alstine wrote on 04 Nov 1996 (Ceacaa) wrote:
>
> >> Yes I have. Four weeks of slave labor was not worth
> >> the price of a train ride from Vilna to Crakow, let alone
> >> from Paris. Throw on the cost of the guards, the camp,
> >> the disinfectant, the security problems and you have
> >> a system that screams "red ink."
>
> >Really, Mr. Allen? Perchance you forgot to
>>include the value of the
> >victims' possesions that were stolen
>>from them by the Nazis?
> >"The highest echelons of the SS once estimated the profit
>>generated by the average concentration camp prisoner.
>>The value of money, valuables, clothing, personal belongings,
>> and teeth of precious metals reached 200 RM
> >($91) after the costs of burning the body had been deducted.
>> not including the value of the victim's bones,
[kurtstel]
> All these still could have been obtained through
>on-site gas chambers,
> completely eliminating the need for superfluous and expensive
transportation.
> Try again.
[alstine]
>I see. Mr. Smith, evidently you do not understand
>the concept of "economies of scale?" Pity. It _might_
>have saved you from looking the
>fool.
TREBLINKA VS. AUSCHWITZ
When the Holocaust myth was first forming
Auschwitz was thought to have claimed 4,000,000
victims while Treblinka was thought to have claimed
1,000,000. Therefore, part of the myth was that
Auschwitz was the "modern, effiecient, industrial"
way the clever Germans had designed mass murder
and Treblinka was the primative test.
Clearly this appeared true if one looked at the
respective camp facilities; Auschwitz/Birkenau had big
brick and concrete buildings, covered a vast area
over 1 km. square: Treblinka was just an acre or two
which never had more than a few buildings.
Under the new figures of one million or less
for Auschwitz vs. one million for Treblinka this
old picture does not fit. Further, Treblinka allegedly
killed people much faster. If you NOW compare
Treblinka with Auschwitz/Birkenau, Treblikna
comes out as a faster, more effective, easier to
establish and a cheaper method of mass murder.
Treblinka and Auschwitz were equally "secure"
locations from a secrecy point of view. In fact, since
it was small and unconnected with any Buna plants,
a Treblinka style location would have less subject
to the aerial scrutiny that Monowitz invited.
The point here is that, theft of victims personal
property aside, Mr. VanAlstine's concept of
"economies of scale" does NOT seem to apply to the
present day stories of Treblinka and Auschwitz/Birkenau
as killing centers. The Treblinka method was clearly
more economic.
From ceacaa@aol.com Thu Nov 7 06:12:39 PST 1996
Article: 78734 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 7 Nov 1996 05:09:28 GMT
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Popular stories offer something for everybody.
The Holocaust myth is no exception.
On one hand we are told that the Germans were
insane people who
"at a time when Germany's military position
was deteriorating ...it was plainly an act of madness
to divert precious resources to mass murder."
William Carr "Nazi policy towards the Jews"
_History Today_ 11/85
Now we have Mark Van Alstine, who wrote on
04 Nov 1996
(Ceacaa) wrote:
>
> >> Four weeks of slave labor was not worth
> >> the price of a train ride from Vilna to Crakow, let alone
> >> from Paris. Throw on the cost of the guards, the camp,
> >> the disinfectant, the security problems and you have
> >> a system that screams "red ink."
>
> >Really, Mr. Allen? Perchance you forgot to
>>include the value of the
> >victims' possesions that were stolen from
>>them by the Nazis? >>Given your
> >uninformed claim that the Nazi pogrom of
>>genocide screamed "red ink," it
> >appears so! To whit:
> >"The highest echelons of the SS once estimated the profit >>generated
by the
> >average concentration camp prisoner. The value of money, valuables,
> >clothing, personal belongings, and teeth of precious metals reached 200
RM
> >($91) after the costs of burning the body had been deducted.
not including the value of the victim's bones,(Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.262.)
Mark, This is amazing! Do you realize here that you
have the SOLID PROOF that the whole Extermination
program was planned in incredible detail (except
for the value ofthe victim's bone's). 91 dollars, what
astonishing detail.
What you have here, Mark, shows that the "highest echelons"
not only knew that they were going to transport
people from France and people from Thrace but
that they knew the value of their personal belongings.
Gee, Mark, just out of curiosity What was the value
of a French transportee's personal property compared
to a Romanian's? I bet alot more!
"cost of burning the body" It also shows that the "highest
echelons" most have know what facilities were going
to be used as gas chambers.
Gosh, Mark, just out of curiosity, when did the
"highest echelons of the SS" make their findings?
Were there any other amazing supporting documents?
Do you realize that this incredible "estimate" contradicts
the findings of Pressac and Arno Mayer and
probably shakes the Mommsen-Broszat school
or "structuralist" school too!!
I think you should write Professor Carr today
and let him know just how wrong he is.
From ceacaa@aol.com Thu Nov 7 06:12:39 PST 1996
Article: 78735 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 7 Nov 1996 05:19:24 GMT
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> Mark Van Alstine wrote 04 Nov 1996
> >Mr. Allen, you dishonestly quoted Pressac. You lied by ommision.
> CEACAA asks again Uh, Mark. Was the corpse chute built or not?
>Uh. Mr. Allen, did you or did you not dishonestly quote >Pressac?
Obviously not. I quoted Pressac to show that
the chute was built...not to discuss his other two
points. Remember, the issue raised was that
the chute WAS NOT BUILT.
[snip]
> >Mr. Allen, was not the corspe chute in previous drawings?
Yes it was but it's deletion was not annotated.
> [Ceacaa asks again] and was the removal ANNOTATED in drawing 2003?
Now, > CEACAA asks again Mark. Was the corpse chute built or not?
Now, [Ceacaa asks again] and was the removal ANNOTATED in drawing 2003?
Come on Mark, you can do it. Try, Mark
Try telling the truth even if it means agreeing with
a "Denier". Admit the chute WAS BUILT and the
deletion from the plans WAS NOT annotated.\
From ceacaa@aol.com Fri Nov 8 10:57:35 PST 1996
Article: 78853 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 8 Nov 1996 05:13:25 GMT
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On 04 Nov 1996 wrote:
> >"The highest echelons of the SS once estimated the profit generated by
the
> >average concentration camp prisoner. Based on an average prisoner life
> >expectancy of nine months, the profit totaled 1,431 RM (about $654) per
> >prisoner after deducting costs of upkeep. The value of money,
valuables,
> >clothing, personal belongings, and teeth of precious metals reached 200
RM
> >($91) after the costs of burning the body had been deducted. Thus
> >according to calculations made by the Nazis themselves, the total
average
> >profit from one prisoner, not including the value of the victim's
bones,
> >totaled 1,631 RM ($745)." (Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.262.)
Mark, if these figures are right then The Germans made
a whole $654 in value presumably in forced labor?
Are you claiming that a Camp inmate was worth $75
per month in forced labor? And why the nine month
figure?
Thank you for explaining yourself.
From ceacaa@aol.com Fri Nov 8 10:57:35 PST 1996
Article: 78854 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 8 Nov 1996 05:19:04 GMT
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OLD CLOTHES NOTHING. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FARM?
>>Mark Van Alstine wrote on 04 Nov 1996
>> Perchance you forgot to include the value of the
> >victims' possesions that were stolen from them by the Nazis?
He goes on to claim that the estimated value of
old clothes and gold teeth (but excluding the value
of bones) was around 91 dollars.
It struck me that Mark and the silly Nazis forgot
the real value of robbing people. the value of the
houses, farms, cars left behind. $91 (plus bones) is
nothing compared to a nice house in Dietva.
It varied from jurisdiction to jurisdiction
but the possessions left behind by deported Jews
was put into trustand was to be converted to "Aryan
use" with the proceeds of a allegedly fair market sale being
returned to the dispossessed owners. The reports
were to the effect that the owners got some
money but only a pittance for the fair amount.
Thus, Mark's dramatic stories about shoes and
bones aside, the Germans created a system that
required compensation for confiscated property.
From ceacaa@aol.com Sat Nov 9 05:37:56 PST 1996
Article: 78954 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 8 Nov 1996 05:37:36 GMT
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The case of the missing corpse chute or
Mark's missing answer.
Mark Van Alstine wrote on 07 Nov 1996 1
.> > CEACAA asks again Uh, Mark. Was the
>>corpse chute built or not?
>
> >Uh. Mr. Allen, did you or did you not dishonestly quote >Pressac?
>
>> Obviously not. I quoted Pressac to show that
>> the chute was built...not to discuss his other two
>> points.
>Really, Mr. Allen. Amazing than that
>you OMITTED the middle of a sentance
>doing so. I'm afraid that dog don't hunt.
>You lied then and you just lied
>now.
>Liar.
Looks like Mark has gotten a little giddy again.
Just can't bring himself to admit that I am
right. Anyway, trying to get Mark VanAlstine
to give an honest answer may have gotten a
little confusing to everybody else.
Pressac makes a big point of the fact
the the corpse chute did not appear on
some late plans of Krema II. There
was NOT an annotation to explain the
deletion of the chute.
In fact the chute appears to have been built.
One can still be seen in the ruins of K. III
A mirror Pressac argument is that
a heating system for Leichenkeller 1
was planned but NOT built.
Thus, the Exterminationist argument
is:
Corpse chute not planned (but built) ahha!!
Heating planned (but not built) Ahha!!!
This is not to dismiss all of Pressac's
"criminal traces" but these to are
not very powerful.
What is interesting about the plan
(Bauleitung drawing 2003) is that
it was first prepared 12/19/42 but
was not signed off on until MAY 1943.
This indicates a later completion
date and a later approval of the
changes made in the plan.
It is also interest to note that
many plans of the Krema were
prepared by civilian firms,
indicating a much lower level
of security for the "gas chamber"
project that a in house SS planning.
From ceacaa@aol.com Sun Nov 10 06:53:35 PST 1996
Article: 79031 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 9 Nov 1996 05:16:23 GMT
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Mark Van Alstine REGURGITATED ABSURDITIES ON
08 Nov 1996 as follows:
>
> > >"The highest echelons of the SS once estimated the profit generated
by
> > >the average concentration camp prisoner. Based on an average prisoner
life
> > >expectancy of nine months, the profit totaled 1,431 RM (about $654)
per
> > >prisoner after deducting costs of upkeep. The value of money,
> > >valuables,clothing, personal belongings, and teeth of precious metals
> > >reached 200 RM ($91) after the costs of burning
>>>the body had been
>>>deducted.
> > >Thus according to calculations made by the Nazis
>>>themselves, the total
> > >average profit from one prisoner, not including
>>>the value of the victim's
> > >bones, totaled 1,631 RM ($745)." (Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.262.)
> [ CEACA asks]
>> Mark, if these figures are right then The Germans made
>> a whole $654 in value presumably in forced labor?
>Presumably.
[ CEACA asks]
>> Are you claiming that a Camp inmate was worth
>>$75 per month in forced labor?
>Are you claiming they weren't?
A typical stupid Alstine reply
>> And why the nine month figure?
>Because they didn't live to ten months?
>> Thank you for explaining yourself.
>You should try it some time!
Then may be you can explain some obvious
inconsistencies in your theory of forced
labor costs (not counting value of bones)
If the Germans were in the forced labor business
for money and making an alleged net profit
of $75 per month per laborer why did they let
their laborer die after nine months?
Also, if labor is so valuable so as to take the
time and cost to set up the camp, guard system
and housing, along with expensive hospital,
saunas, and crematoria, why did they kill
90% (SHM) of the arriving workers?
Your rational of the extermination/labor
camps is that the Germans set them up to
make a profit but then you have them
killing off their labor supply and trained
workers.
Second question-you never bothered to let us
know the date of the amazing estimate by "the highest
echelons of the SS" of profit. It really is a fantastic
document, Mark, please try explaining some of the
assumptions of the estimate.
From ceacaa@aol.com Thu Nov 14 10:19:35 PST 1996
Article: 79486 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 4 Nov 1996 22:03:52 -0500
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Mark Van Alstine wrote on 03 Nov 1996
>Furthermore, Mr. Allen, you dishonestly gloss
>over the glaring fact that
>to CARRY corpses down a stairway into
>the L.Kellers was for more time
>consuming, burdensome, and inefficient
>than to simply pull up a cart (or
>truck, etc.) next to the ground level
>antechember where the corpse chute
>was and simply slide the corspes down
>into the vestibule below, where they
>would have been dragged into one of the L.Kellers.
Oddly enough, this was an argument that I raised
as a disadvantage of an UNDERGROUND gas chamber.
Herding people into an underground "shower" and
getting the bodies up to the crematory level.
How do you claim all the bodies were moved?
Are you going to claim that the
Aufzug (corpse lift)was a powerful mechanism capable
of moving a fifty bodies at a time?
How many bodies do you claim were sent up
the little elevator shaft? 250,000, 350,000
450,000?
Was the "aufzug" (corpse lift) designed to handle
two or three bodies at a time or 50-100 bodies?
What does Gutman say?
From ceacaa@aol.com Wed Nov 20 06:02:02 PST 1996
Article: 80460 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 20 Nov 1996 04:27:07 GMT
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This way to the Bath, please., or the VanAlstine Tales.
Obviously a vast number of stories about the
"showers" at Birkenau are confused, contradictory
and clearly at odds with the physical evidence at the
site. The stories are of two types:
Whips and dogs-emphasis on force driving the victims
underground; and
Girls in blue skirts playing gay music-emphasis on
pure trickery.
However, as a Revisionist, it was not the most
ridiculous Holocaust story that had to be explained
but the most cogent one. I had shrugged the matter off,
sort of going along with the Whips and Dogs approach.
Then Mark Van Alstine wrote on 07 Nov 1996 a list
of stories. From his quotes, it appears that the
"trickery" stories are clearly SHM. Of course, all of
Alstine's stories have clear impossiblities in them
but that is grist for another posting.
The physical layout of Kremas II and III does not lend
itself to tricking people into an underground gaschamber.
There was no fence or gate at the back (western)
end of the camp. No crowd control measures and ditches
and trees at the critical area of the turn into the
"gaschambers". The stairs into the Leichenkeller were
narrow and steep. The Leichenkeller itself was low ceilinged.
By low ceilinged, I mean about 1.9 meters high.
(That's about 6 feet for you, Mark)
The victims had to walk around the Krema itself (no
looking into the windows). This was an criticism of
the "Girls in blue skirts playing gay music" stories.
Here are the VanAlstine tales snipped to demonstrate the
paramont importance of trickery to the Birkenau
story.
The VanAlstine Tales
SS Unterscarfu"hrer Broad, Political Section (Gestapo) at KL Auschwitz:
"...There at the ramp the cattle vans were being
unloaded and the people who had arrived in them,
were slowly marching towards their unknown
destination.. A few guards without guns, but with
pistols well hidden in their pockets, escorted
the procession to the crematorium. The
SS men promised the people, who were begining to
feel more hopeful, that
they would be employed at suitable work, according
to their occupations.
Explicit instructions as to thier behaviour were
given the SS men by
Ho"ssler. their (sic) were no
uncivil words at that moment. The more fiendish the
whole plan!
Both leaves of the big entrance gate to the
crematorium were wide open.
Suspecting nothing the column marched in,
in lines of five persons, and
stood in the yard.
Somewhat nerviously the SS guard at
the entrance waited
for the last man to enter the yard.
Quickly he shut the gate and bolted
it. Grabner and Ho"ssler were standing on the roof of the crematorium.
Grabner spoke to the Jews who unsuspectingly
awaited their fate.
"'You will now bathe and be disinfeted, we don't
wan't any epidemics in
the camp.
"They willingy followed those instructions,
given them in a friendly,
warm-hearted voice.
Grabner and Ho"ssler continued
>from the roof to give freindly advice which had
a calming effect upon the
people. 'Put your shoes close to your
clothes bundle, so that you can find
them after the bath'. - "Is the water
warm? Of course, warm showers. -
What is your trade? A shoemaker? We need
them urgently, report to me
immediately after!' - Such words dispelled
last doubts or lingering
suspicions.
Several SS men had entered
with them, full of jokes and small talk. They
inobtrusuvely kept their
eyes on the entrance. As soon as the last person
had entered, they
dissapeared without much ado. .
(Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, pp.175-176.)
From ceacaa@aol.com Wed Nov 20 06:02:02 PST 1996
Article: 80494 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 20 Nov 1996 04:29:22 GMT
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The VanAlstine Tales continued.
SS Obersturmbannfu"hrer Ho"ss, 1st Kommandant of KL Auschwitz:
"In the spring of 1942 [January] the first transports
of Jews arrived from
Upper Silesia. [Camp Commander] Aumeier,
Palitzch, and a few
other block leaders led them and spoke
to them as one would in casual
conversation, asking them about their occupations and their schooling in
order to fool them.
The presence of the Sonderkommando and their
soothing behavior also helped calm the restless
and suspicious. Some of
the SOnderkommando even went with them into the rooms and stayed until the
last moment to keep them calm while
an SS soldier stood in the doorway.
The most important thing, of course,
was to maintain as mucg peace and
quitr as possible during the process
of arriving and undressing. If some
did not want to undress, some of
those already undressed as well as the
Sonderkommando had to help them undress.
"With quite talk and persuasion even those who resisted were soothed and
udressed.
The Sonderkommando, which was composed
of prisoners, took great
pains that the process of undressing took
place very quickly so that the
victims had no time to think about what
was happening. Actually the eager
assistance of the Sonderkommando during
the undressing and the processin
into the gas chambers was very peculiar.
Never did I see or hear even a
syllable breathed to those who were
going to be gassed as to what their
fate was. On the contrary, they tried
everything to fool them. Most of
all, they tried to calm those who
seeed to guess what was ahead/ Even
though they might not believe the
SS soldiers, they would have complete
trust in those of their own race. For this
reon the SOnderkommando was
always composed of Jews from
the same country as those who were being sent
to the gas chambers." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, pp. 157-158.)
Prisoner Doctor, and Auschwitz survivor, Miklos Nyiszli :
"...Five abreast the group entered the courtyard;
And not, as the German lie had made the
right-hand column suppose in order to
allay their anxiety, a camp for the
sick and children, where the infirm
cared for the little ones.
"They advanced with slow weary steps.
The SS guards who recieved the convoys were
used to the scene. They waited patiently till each
had quenched his thirst
and filled his container. IN any case, the guards
knew that as long as
they not drunk their (sic) would be no getting
them back in line.
Slowly they
began to re-form their ranks. Then
they advanced for about 100 yards along
a cinder path edged with green grass to an
iron ramp, from which 10 or 12
concrete steps led underground to an
enourmus room dominated by a large
sign in German, French, Greek and Hungarian:
'Bath and Disinfecting Room.'
The sign was reassuring, and allayed the m
isgivings of fears of even the
most suspicious among them. They went down
the stairs almost gaily.
Numerous signs in several
languages drew everyoe's attention to the necessity of tying his clothes
and shoes together
"'That's really a German order,' commented those
who had long been
inclined to admire the Germans.
(Nyiszli, _Auschwitz_,
pp.48-51.)
From ceacaa@aol.com Wed Nov 20 06:02:03 PST 1996
Article: 80530 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 20 Nov 1996 05:56:04 GMT
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The VanAlstine Tales (continued)
In the center of the room, at thirty-yard intervals,
columns rose from the concrete floor to the
ceiling.
THIRTY-YARD INTERVALS? THAT IS NOT CORRECT,
IS IT, MARK?
(Nyiszli, _Auschwitz_,
pp.48-51.)
Well Mark. Your stories, supposedly given by
eyewitnesses-Nyiszli claims to have lived in
the Krema, right next to the gaschambers-
seem to be full of significant inaccuracies
when compared to the actual building structures.
How do you explain the descriptions of:
1. Standing on the Crematorium roof;
2. The entrance "hall";
3. The "iron ramp"
4. The enourmus (sic) room with the 6 foot ceiling;
5. The description of the Leichenkeller as being
200 yards long;
6. 3,000 people undressing in the room;
7. The claim that Leichekeller 1 and 2 connected;
8. Thirty yards between porous pillars?
Or do you just accept these stories without
thinking about them? And get furious with
people who do?
From ceacaa@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:06 PST 1996
Article: 80714 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 20 Nov 1996 05:53:56 GMT
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Mark Van Alstine wrote on 07 Nov 1996
Comments in Capitals
SS Unterscarfu"hrer Broad, Political Section (Gestapo) at KL Auschwitz:
Somewhat nerviously the SS guard at the entrance waited
for the last man to enter the yard. Quickly he shut the gate and bolted
it. GEE, MARK, JUST ONE GUARD AND THREE
THOUSAND VICTIMS. NO WONDER HE WAS NERVOUS!
Grabner and Ho"ssler were standing on the roof
of the crematorium.
THE CREMATORIUM HAS A SHARPLY PEAKED ROOF-
NO STANDING POSSIBLE-
Grabner spoke to the Jews
You wil be employed in accordance with your professional
qualifications.
GEE, MARK, WHY KILL THESE "PROFESSIONALS"-THAT'S
NOT PART OF THE STORY YOU GAVE LAST WEEK.
REMEMBER, MAKE MONEY FROM THEM-SLAVE LABOR,
ETC.
Grabner and Ho"ssler continued
>from the roof to give freindly (SIC)advice.
MARK, DO YOU THINK THEY WERE REALLY ON THE
ROOF OF THE CREMATORIUM?
What is your trade? A shoemaker? We need
them urgently,
UH, DIDN'T THEY?
The first lines entered the morturary thrugh the hall.
MARK, YOU KNOW THERE IS NO "HALL" AT
ANY OF THE CREMAS.
They looked in vain for showers or water pipes fixed to the
ceiling. TRY GETTING YOUR STORY STRAIGHT-LAST WEEK
THE "BIG PROOF" WAS THE SUPPOSED SHOWER HEADS
IN CREMA 2.
Suddenly the door was closed.
DOOR OR DOORS?
They were screwed with screws,
NO SCREWS ON THE DOOR TO LEICHENKELLER 2.
Several victims noticed that the covers
had been removed from the six
holes in the ceiling.
SIX HOLES? I THOUGHT YOU SAID FOUR, MARK
They uttered a loud cry of terror when they saw a
head in a gas-mask in one opening.
IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE GIVEN THE ALLEGED
STRUCTURE OF MARK'S MAGIC POROUS PILLAR
Immediately after opening
the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes
which were then quickly
covered...."
WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR POROUS PILLARS, MARK?
(Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, pp.175-176.)
Prisoner Doctor, and Auschwitz survivor, Miklos Nyiszli :
Then they advanced for about 100 yards along
a cinder path edged with green grass to an iron ramp,
IRON RAMP?? NO SIGN OF THAT ANYWHERE.
>from which 10 or 12 concrete steps led underground
to an enourmus (SIC) room dominated by a large
sign in German, French, Greek and Hungarian:
'Bath and Disinfecting Room.'
MARK, YOU SHOULD TELL EVERYBODY HOW TALL THE
CEILING IS IN THE LEICHENKELLER- HINT. ABOUT 6 FEET.
They went down the stairs almost gaily.
MARK, TELL THE PEOPLE HOW WIDE THE STAIRS ARE.
"The room in which the convoy proceeeded
was about 200 yards long:
MARK, TELL THE PEOPLE HOW LONG THE ROOM REALLY
IS.
its walls were whitewashed
ANY SIGN OF WHITEWASH? NO.
and it was brightly lit.
MORE MISSTATEMENTS. ACTUALLY THE ROOM WAS
LIGHTED BY A SINGLE ROW OF LIGHTS DOWN THE
MIDDLE.
so that thousands of pairs of good shoes
sorely needed by the THird Reich would not get mixed up.
RIGHT, KILL THE SHOEMAKER BUT STEAL HIS SHOES.
"There were 3,000 people in the room: men, women and children.
DIDN'T THEY SEPERATE THE MEN AND WOMEN (SHM)?
MARK, DO YOU THINK 3,000 PEOPLE COULD HAVE
UNDRESSED IN LEICHENKELLER 2?
SOme of the soldiers arrived
MAKE THAT 3000 PLUS SOME SOLDIERS
were helped by a Sonderkommando squad sent for that
purpose.
HERE IS "THE EAGER SONDERKOMMANDO" AGAIN-STRANGE.
In ten minutes all were completely naked, their clothes hung on
the pegs, their shoes attached together by their laces. As for the number
of each clothes hanger, it had been carefully noted.
"Making his way through the crowd, an SS opend the swig-doors of the large
oaken gate at the end of the room. The crowd flowed through into another
equally well-lighted room.
ACTUALLY, WE KNOW THAT THE TWO LEICHENKELLER
ARE NOT CONNECTED, DON'T WE MARK?-THERE ARE
SEVERAL SMALL ROOMS AND AN "ANTECHAMBER"
SEPERATING THEM.
The second room ws the same size as the first,
IT IS NOT 200 YARDS LONG
From ceacaa@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:07 PST 1996
Article: 80781 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 20 Nov 1996 04:36:41 GMT
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The VanAlstine Tales, Continued
"Suspecting nothing the column marched in,"
"A few guards without guns,"
advice "given them in a friendly,
warm-hearted voice."
SS men "full of jokes and small talk."
"With quite talk and persuasion "
The whole thing was based on tricks!!!
Even the Germans were aware of the precariousness
of their "fiendish" plan, "Somewhat nerviously the
SS guard at the entrance waited..."
but of course, they didn't
do anything about it like put up a fence or design a
gaschamber that looked a little like a shower.
They even kept their guns hidden.
Of course, nothing actually at the site today
supports VanAlstines stories.
The Auschwitz Album has pictures of an actual
arrival at Birkenau. Needless to say, all of VanAlstine's
stories are contradicted by real photographs.
The eager Sondercommando
If you really believed these stories, the very odd
but vital role of the Sondercommandos becomes
apparent. "The eager assistance of the Sonderkommando"
as Hoess calls it. The testimony of these
"eager" assistants like Tauber, who told incredible
stories about the Germans to justify his own actions,
which are a key support of the stories of
mass gassings.
The Sondercommando were given special
treatment, they lived at the edge of camp with
little or no security, and they eagerly assisted the
Germans.
From ceacaa@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:08 PST 1996
Article: 80794 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 21 Nov 1996 05:26:01 GMT
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>> 6. 3,000 people undressing in the room;
>Do you not think that 3,000 people could _not_ be
>crammed into L.Keller 1.
Your quote was about 3,000 people being tricked into
a room and UNDRESSING there, not being "crammed"
into a particular space. L.Keller 2's interior measured
7.93 m x 49.43 m. (TECHNIQUE. p.327.) That's
about 26' x 164' or 4264 square feet, NOT counting
pillars, benches, guards. The story you quoted
has 3,000 people (plus the eager Sondercommandos
and guards) packed into and getting UNDRESSED
in about 1.4 square feet per person.
I suggest you, Danny Keren, J. Morris, Yale, (maybe Sara
Perrrfect will go too), Gord McFee, Jamie and 2 others
all get into your regular 3' by 4' shower (only with 6.5
feet of headroom). Please try to disrobe. Multiply
the scene by 300 and you will see why the story you
fervently quote actually might seem a little "incorrect"
>> 7. The claim that Leichekeller 1 and 2 connected;
>No such explicit claim was made, Mr. Allen.
>When one has the werewithall to examine the
>construction documents of
>Krema II to before commenting on this, it
>becomes quite obvious that a
>small vestibule connected L.Kellers 1 and 2.
Little connecting room left out. Sort impedes the
"flow" of people doesn't it? Especially at densities
of 1.4 people per sq. foot. Forgot the other basement
rooms too, didn't he?
> Considering this,
Considering what? That Nysizli didn't look at the
plans before giving his "testimony"?
>one can easily forgive Nysizli for
>not being more explicit and mentioning such
>a small room as the vestibule was.
Yes, such a small room, so inconvient to the story.
Why be explicit when talking about the murder scene
of 100,000's of people? Why bother with a an
extra room or two? Nysizli was only a self-proclaimed
rare "eyewitness" to murders, no need to be accurate,
no historical value here.
>It simply was not important to the narrative.
>A narrative who's purpose, lest we forget, was
>in describing the horror of a mass homicidal
>gassing -and not the minutae of the Krema's
contruction and layout.
Nyiszli spends a lot of time describing the Krema's
layout, most of it wrong.
Of course, the point is to get some idea of the accuracy
of Nyiszli. As you just write, he is not accurate.
>Your nit-picking over Nyiszli's ommision of
>such minutae, for example,
>makes one wonder as to your motivations.
"nit-picking"? Missing the lenght of the gas chamber
by 450 feet is minutae? Forgetting rooms, putting
people into Undressing rooms at 1 per 1.4 sq. feet
minutae. Rember, this guy claims to be a doctor
who lived in Krema II. Not a guess based on a quick peek.
Let's see what your "eyewitness" says about the
vital Zyclon induction holes.
>> 8. Thirty yards between porous pillars?
>>Incorrect. The spacing was likely on the order of 4.45 meters
Your eyewitness is incorrect again by a factor of 6.
By the way, he implys that there were 200 yards divided
by 30 yards or SIX vents. This ties in with the number
in another quote you posted. Of course, ol' Doctor N.
couldn't bothered to be clear on such minor details
as the number of vents. What do you think he meant?
Why you post stories with so many inaccuracies in them?
You just admitted that these stories do not conform to
what you know is at the site in any specific point,
ie. size, number of rooms, number of people in rooms,
SS officers on the roof, Hallways into the Leichenkeller.
As I asked
>> Do you just accept these stories without
>> thinking about them? And get furious with
>> people who do?
From ceacaa@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:09 PST 1996
Article: 81031 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 22 Nov 1996 05:31:43 GMT
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Mark Van Alstine wrote on 21 Nov 1996
>Mr. Smith is indeed lying through his teeth.
>I find that rather duplicitous and evidence of a lack of
>integrity on Mr. Smith's part.
>But then who ever claimed that Mr. Smith
> _wasn't_ duplicitous or _had_ any integrity? Not I.
>For those interested in proof...[snip Mark's gibbering]
Now, now,Mark, you have posted stories of a 200 yard-long
gaschambers, of 3,000 people undressing in a 4,000 Square
foot room, of people going into halls which never existed,
stories which omit inconvient rooms. You admit that
these elements of the stories are "incorrect" (your
own word) but seem to get furious when other people
question the accuracy of the stories.
You post stories you know are incorrect: Does that
mean you are lying and duplicitious? You keep telling
everyone that the events were incredible. Well, some
people are incredulous.
Anyway, why don't you try dealing with some valid
questions about the so-called "eyewitness" tesimony you
have such faith in.
Reflections of the 4,000,000 Story
For example, these stories were usually recorded at
a time when the claimed death count at Auschwitz was
4,000,000. By your own lights a 4 fold exaggeration.
Did you notice that Nyiszli gave an approximately 4 fold exaggeration in
the size of the Leichenkeller/gaschamber?
Hoess "confession" also ties in with the 4,000,000
figure, he claimed to have killed 2,500,000 before
he left the camp in 1944. You never replied when I
asked you about Olga Lengyel's story entitled
Five Chimneys. She has stories of ladling boiling
human fat and using babies as kindling and SHE
claims 4,000,000 died at Auschwitz.
Would it surprise you too much if the testimonies
you have such faith in were adapted to accomodate
the 4,000,000 figure? Or do you consider them
gospel-like "narratives"?
From ceacaa@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:09 PST 1996
Article: 81327 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 22 Nov 1996 05:30:04 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 49
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Mark Van Alstine wrote on 21 Nov 1996
>Mr. Smith is indeed lying through his teeth.
>I find that rather duplicitous and evidence of a lack of
>integrity on Mr. Smith's part.
>But then who ever claimed that Mr. Smith
> _wasn't_ duplicitous or _had_ any integrity? Not I.
>For those interested in proof...[snip Mark's gibbering]
Now, now,Mark, you have posted stories of a 200 yard-long
gaschambers, of 3,000 people undressing in a 4,000 Square
foot room, of people going into halls which never existed,
stories which omit inconvient rooms. You admit that
these elements of the stories are "incorrect" (your
own word) but seem to get furious when other people
question the accuracy of the stories.
You post stories you know are incorrect: Does that
mean you are lying and duplicitious? You keep telling
everyone that the events were incredible. Well, some
people are incredulous.
Anyway, why don't you try dealing with some valid
questions about the so-called "eyewitness" tesimony you
have such faith in.
Reflections of the 4,000,000 Story
For example, these stories were usually recorded at
a time when the claimed death count at Auschwitz was
4,000,000. By your own lights a 4 fold exaggeration.
Did you notice that Nyiszli gave an approximately 4 fold exaggeration in
the size of the Leichenkeller/gaschamber?
Hoess "confession" also ties in with the 4,000,000
figure, he claimed to have killed 2,500,000 before
he left the camp in 1944. You never replied when I
asked you about Olga Lengyel's story entitled
Five Chimneys. She has stories of ladling boiling
human fat and using babies as kindling and SHE
claims 4,000,000 died at Auschwitz.
Would it surprise you too much if the testimonies
you have such faith in were adapted to accomodate
the 4,000,000 figure? Would it surprise you
if Stalin's propaganda machine cranked out a
few whoppers at the time? Or do you consider all
testimony gospel-like "narratives"?
From ceacaa@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:10 PST 1996
Article: 81560 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 24 Nov 1996 17:21:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 30
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References:
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(Jamie McCarthy 23 Nov 1996
mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> Whining about Nysizli not mentioning the vestibule
> between the L.Kellers [...]
Chief@rabbi.com (a troll) wrote:
>> Between the two LKs, right? BETWEEN the two, as >>in LK I and
LK II
>> right?
>
>> As in those two buildings that were behind
>>KR II and KR III right?
>Wrong.
NO, JAMIE IS WRONG. The little vestibule, along
witn elevator shaft and other rooms is between
Leichenkeller 1 and Leichenkeller 2.
This room would impede crowd movement,
especially at the Hoaxter numbers claimed,
ie. at one person per 1.4 square feet.
Of course, Hoaxters like Jamie and VanAlstine
never mention this and then DENY its importance
when brought up.
It is only one omission in a string made by
Nyiszli, Gaschambers which are two football
fields long, 90 feet beween the (nonexistent)
Zyclon induction vents.
From ceacaa@aol.com Tue Nov 26 06:24:38 PST 1996
Article: 82021 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 26 Nov 1996 05:02:27 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Mark Van Alstine wrote 23 Nov 1996
#> >Mr. Smith is indeed lying through his teeth.
CEACAA
>> Now, now,Mark, you have posted stories of a 200 yard-long
>> gaschambers, of 3,000 people undressing in a 4,000 Square
>> foot room, of people going into halls which never existed,
>> stories which omit inconvient rooms. You admit that
>> these elements of the stories are "incorrect" (your
>> own word) but seem to get furious when other people
>> question the accuracy of the stories....
>I _agreed_ with you that these
>estimates were wrong.
>The _real_ issue here, Mr. Allen, is that _you_ assert
>that because a few
>of the details of Nyiszli's narrative are wrong and that this >"proves"
>that Nyiszli is an unreliable witness; that by
>implication _all_ the
>details of his narrative are wrong; and by
>extension that homicidal
>gassings _didn't_ take place at Krema II!
"By implication"? "extenstion" , I have not argued any
of that. You are projecting, Mark.
As I have said before:
"Revisionist must explain the best "witness" account,
not simply point out the obvious frauds.
I know next to nothing about Nyiszli other than
that his account is most remarkable and
has the inaccuracies in it (as we have both agreed).
Nyiszli may have been at Birkenau or he may
not really have existed. I am not in a position to
say. It would make an interesting paper for
some history student.
Anyway, I think the inaccuarcies are important.
You don't. Once we have identified them, that is
about as far as we can take this one. So...
Back to Nyiszli's account of Krema II:
Nyiszli claimed that 3,000 people at a time undressed
in Leichenkeller 2. You and I know that Leichenkeller 2
is approximately 4,000 sq. ft. in size subtracting the
columns adding a few guards and Sondercommandos.
That's is (generously) about 1.5 sq. ft per person to undress
in.
For anyone out there in cyberland who is interested
(hello, hello) and wants to test Nyiszli's story.
Put a yard stick (or a one meter rod) on the floor.
Mark off a three foot by three foot space. 9 sq. feet.
Then get six people to stand inside the space. Then
get them to take off their cloths. (Note: They should
be very good friends).
To be fair, I should note that Mark VanAlstine
once posted that the distance from the tip of his
index finger to his wrist was 9 cm. so maybe he
wouldn't have a problem
undressing in 1.5 sq. ft.
As to the other "few details", res ipsa locutor.
In this same posting you admit he is off by a factor
of 400 percent: a gas chamber twice as large as a
football field, etc. etc.
>> You post stories you know are incorrect....
>No. I have no reason to disbelieve what Nyiszli wrote...
400 percent off?-200 yard gaschambers?
3,000 people undressing in a 4,000 sq. ft. room?
You giggle it off with your "theories" it
was a "coded message in regard that the Soviet
claim of 4 million killed at Auschwitz incorrect":
You have an insouciance which is next to sick.
As I wrote: You post stories you know are incorrect
and then freely accuse others of "intellectual dishonesty".
Well, at least you admit the connection beween these
stories and Soviet propaganda.
For others who may not know it (and Mark the Hoaxter
isn't about to point it out) Nyiszli claimed to have
lived in Krema II, to have been a doctor and a trained
observer, an eyewitness to every major type of Nazi
crime at Birkenau, an assistane to Mengele, and,
a miraclous survivor. As I said, an amazing story.
From ceacaa@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:27 PST 1996
Article: 82179 of alt.revisionism
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From: ceacaa@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 26 Nov 1996 05:13:10 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 24
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X-Admin: news@aol.com
Mike Curtis 25 Nov 1996
>Well, I would say, because they are the
>memories of one individual who
>was there. Human memories are tricky
>things and not all individuals
>spend time thinking about being exact
>when confronted with
>documentation that shows that
>their memories exaggerated distances or
>numberic values gathered during
>difficult situations.
Don't let any Texan hear you say that!
Actually, I would agree with you. The "value"
of a witness is not precluded by mistakes in
numeric values or distances.
However, Nyiszli was a Ph.d, had months
to make his observations and a definite
sense of the importance of his observations.
These factors make his mistakes odd.
Without knowing more about the man
or at least the genisis of his book, it is
hard to really evaluate his story.
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