Archive/File: 
people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Testimony-Abroad/Hermann_Krumey-02
Last-Modified: 1999/06/14

I can no longer say from my own recollection how the
children left the camp.  From the documents shown to me in
the proceedings against me I know that somebody fetched
them.  There are receipts about handing over the children to
the Litzmannstadt State Police Regional Headquarters, and on
these receipts the registration numbers appear of the
vehicles which took the children away.  The reason why I do
not remember any details is because there was a Camp
Inspector Schwarzhuber for overall camp affairs and, apart
from that, the Gneisenaustrasse camp had a commandant of its
own.  Who the commandant was at the time, I do not remember.
Normally I only dealt with matters where difficulties arose.
Today I can no longer say who gave instructions to my
office, and whether such instructions were issued in reply
to my telegrams.  I consider it possible that the children
could have been fetched without my office receiving direct
instructions.  In such a case, instructions could have gone
directly to the State Police Regional Headquarters instead
of to my office, so that I would not have known of them.

In reply to questioning: As I have already stated, I was
involved with the resettlement of Poles, as I have
described.  However, I did not deal with any evacuation of
Jews and Gypsies.  When I was in Litzmannstadt, there was a
ghetto there with which I had nothing to do.

I did not hear about the evacuation of the ghetto until it
had taken place.  I was in Litzmannstadt until March 1944.
Transport arrangements for evacuating the ghetto were not
made through me.

I have now, in connection with the Lidice children affair,
been shown a teletype from RUS (Race and Resettlement Head
Office) Berlin No. 313* {* Original: No. 1313} dated 12 June
1942, asking the Litzmannstadt Central Office for Migration
to accept eighty-six Czech children not suitable for
Germanization, to deal with the question of accommodation
and find suitable housing for the eighty-six children, as
well as an urgent secret teletype from the Senior Commander
of the Security Police and the Security Service in Prague,
346/42, signed Fischer, dated 12 June 1942, to the
Litzmannstadt Central Office, indicating what happened in
Lidice, including the fate of the children's parents, the
children's background, giving the age groups and the time of
arrival as 21:30 on 13 June 1942, and asking for the
children to be met at the station and then immediately
assigned to suitable camps.  In this document it says that
those who are not suitable for Germanization are to be sent
on "via the Polish camps at your end."  It goes on to say:
"The children are bringing with them only what they have on
their bodies.  No special care for them is required."  Today
I no longer have any special recollection of these teletypes
I have been shown, but I would like to point out that,
contrary to what it says in the remark in this teletype, I
had to have special care arranged in the Gneisenaustrasse
camp, and I did so.

When the resettlement operation had more or less run its
course, one day I received an order from the Inspector of
the Security Police in Posen to report for an operation in
Mauthausen, together with Schmidtsiefen and two N.C.O.'s
from my office.  I arrived there on about 17 March 1944.  I
found Eichmann there; I had met him earlier, as I had
visited him at his office on several occasions in
conjunction with timetable consultations in Berlin, and he
had on several occasions spent the night in Litzmannstadt,
and we had met then.  Eichmann was the head of the Section
with which I had to deal because of transport matters.  The
responsible expert there, as far as my affairs were
concerned, was Novak who was also in Mauthausen when I
arrived.  Apart from them, I did not find anyone else there
whom I knew.  Eichmann introduced me to Geschke, or rather
referred me to him, and I got to know that Geschke, whom I
had also not met previously, led the group assembling here.
We also spent the next day in Mauthausen, but I did not
learn where we were going nor what our assignment was.  The
following evening we left.  Eichmann was assigned to a
different vehicle from myself.  We were held up for a long
time on the open road, together with the column, and it was
only at daybreak that I found out that we had travelled to
Hungary.  Around midday on 19 March 1944, i.e., on the
Sunday on which Hungary was invaded, we arrived in Budapest
and were, for the time being, accommodated in a hotel.  At
first I did not have the impression that we had any fixed
organization and division of work.  I remember that, right
at the beginning, Geschke gave me the assignment of
establishing contact with the Hungarian police, in order to
guarantee that supply services in Budapest would be
maintained.  After that Eichmann, who held the same rank as
I did, but whom I always considered to be my superior, sent
me with Wisliceny to summon the Jewish Council.  I also
remember  subsequently standing with Wisliceny in front of a
large group of Jews, with Wisliceny talking about what was
going to happen.  Today I no longer remember what he said in
detail.  The general tendency was to reassure.  All of this
was new to me, and that is why I no longer know the details.
I am in danger of saying things which I no longer remember,
but of which I only became aware later, during the
proceedings against me.

At some point Eichmann definitely told me that I was now a
member of his Section.  It is also possible that Geschke
ordered me there.  I was not on good terms with Geschke.  In
any case, subsequently, when the Hungarians two or three
weeks later made rooms available and Eichmann opened an
office marked as such, I was with him.  He appointed me as
his deputy in his office.  What I mean by that is that, for
example, I had no authority to represent Eichmann at
negotiations with Geschke or the Hungarian authorities.
Rather, I was responsible for supervising the internal
workings of the office, including supervision of the staff.
My own field of duties also included dealing with instances
where the armed forces had confiscated Jewish installations
and synagogues, in order to release the requisite
installations, the censorship of Jewish newspapers which, in
the main, was dealt with by a female employee in my office,
and the issue of permits. I was aware of the fact that the
office to which I was attached dealt exclusively with Jewish
matters.  However, I did not know, for example, what finally
happened to deported Jews.  I only received definite
information about this when Kasztner informed me, at the
time of the second or third evacuation transport from the
provinces, that these were going to Auschwitz and not to the
Reich.  He told me that the trains had been seen on the
Polish border, and from that the conclusion had to be drawn
that they were going to be exterminated.  I do not know
whether Kasztner said Auschwitz.  I no longer remember what
I did immediately after that, but I believe I remember
enquiring from Eichmann, together with Kasztner, about what
I had been told, and as far as I remember, Eichmann simply
said, "And if it were so...?"

However, I did then try to give some help to the Jews in
Budapest, inter alia by setting up camps in a villa in the
town and in two houses at a timberyard, without the
knowledge of Eichmann and Geschke, in order to provide
refuge.  I was later denounced - by the Hungarians, I
believe - and was transferred from Hungary by Geschke, not
by Eichmann.  Eichmann informed me of my transfer and
indicated that I was intolerable because of my friendly
attitude to the Jews, and he also said that this decision
had been taken on Geschke's initiative.  Eichmann told me
that Geschke had given orders for my transfer.  That was at
the beginning of June 1944.  After that, I was allowed to
remain another two days and was then sent to Vienna.  There
I was to set up an office which was to administer the labour
commandos of Hungarian Jews assigned to Austria.

When I was in the Budapest office, I did not see written
orders and instructions to Eichmann or to the office about
the treatment of Jews.  That includes orders or instructions
by teletype.  Neither did I receive any oral orders from a
superior authority for transmission to Eichmann.  However, I
do know that Eichmann was repeatedly summoned to Geschke,
and that this happened very often.  I never went with him to
Geschke, so I did not hear what instructions and orders he
received there.  Eichmann also went to see Winkelmann and
Veesenmayer on a number of occasions.  I do not know whether
he was summoned to see them.  It is my opinion that, as a
Higher SS and Police Leader, Winkelmann could have issued
orders to Eichmann.  I know that once Eichmann was summoned
to see Kaltenbrunner in Berlin, but I do not know in what
connection.  During the period in question Eichmann went to
Berlin several times.  I do not know to whom or for what
purpose.

Anyhow, Eichmann was always absent only for a few days.  As
far as I remember, no one deputized for him vis-a-vis
outside bodies at this time, nor can I remember any instance
where activities by such a deputy would have been necessary.

In reply to questioning: I know nothing about a promise
having been made to Jews that any office or authority would
pay compensation for confiscations or for the use of Jewish
labour.

I could ascertain that the deportations of Jews were carried
out by the Hungarians.  On each occasion only one Leader was
present from our office.  I myself was never present at a
deportation.  I did not assign the Leaders for this duty.
Eichmann must have done this.  I do not know anything
precise about this.  By deportation I mean both
concentration and also dispatch.  Novak was our office's
liaison with the railways and was responsible for transport
matters.  It is my opinion that he must also have arranged
and organized deportation transports with the railways.  I
am referring here to railway trains.  The reason for this
assumption is that Novak also did this previously in Berlin,
i.e., served as liaison between the office he was with and
the railways.  On the Hungarian side, as far as I know, the
persons dealing with the implementation of the deportations
were Peter Hain and Endre, as well as Ferenczy.   Within the
office, I myself had nothing to do with deportations.  I do
not know to what extent anything like this passed via
Eichmann himself.  He had his own typist, and I was not
acquainted with what he did himself.  I did observe that his
typist did not have a great deal to do.  Eichmann spent
little time in the office itself.  He came and went when he
wished.  In Budapest he had a very full private life which
took up a lot of his time.

I also do not know anything about Eichmann having
intervened, or having been able to intervene, in
deportations, positively or negatively, on his own
initiative.  During the time that I belonged to the office
in Hungary, I did not notice Eichmann acting on his own
initiative in the sphere of Jewish affairs, either exceeding
or acting counter to any instructions, of which, moreover, I
had no knowledge.  My impression of Eichmann was always that
he was not the type to do something on his own
responsibility.  The reason why I had this impression was
that previously, when I was active in the Warthe District,
whenever I asked him something, he would not immediately
take a decision himself, but would ask for my query in
writing and would send me the reply later.  Today I no
longer remember whether I had this impression only from the
matter of the Lidice children, or whether there were various
other incidents of the same type in which Eichmann evaded
giving an immediate decision.  What I do remember is that I
had always to submit a request for a transport train to him
in writing, and the same was true of changes.  I considered
that this demonstrated exaggerated caution on the part of
Eichmann.

The office to which I belonged in Budapest, and which was
under Eichmann's control, had some fifteen to twenty-five
persons, including the drivers and clerical staff.

In reply to questioning: I remember an incident when
Wisliceny asked me to accompany him, in order to fetch
money.  We then went together to some living room or other.
I forget where this room was.  It is possible that Kasztner
and perhaps Brand, too, were also present.  As far as I
remember, it was anyhow Wisliceny and not Hunsche who was
with me.  It is not impossible that I fetched money
somewhere another time with Hunsche.  When I went with
Wisliceny to fetch the money, a leather suitcase was handed
over; its contents were not counted in my presence.  I do
not know who handed over the suitcase.  It might have been
handed over by Brand or Kasztner.  We then delivered the
suitcase to our office administrator.  I do not know what
happened to it subsequently.  I did think until now that it
or its contents were forwarded to the commander (to
Geschke).  When the delivery took place, it was clear to me
that this must have been preceded by negotiations of some
kind.  However, I did not know what had been negotiated.

I have been shown the passage from Kasztner's Report, pages
26 and 27, in the Israel Prosecution document No. 900, where
Kasztner describes two instances of money being handed over
in my presence.  I wish to state in this connection that the
words I am described as having said were certainly not
spoken by me.  I did not make any promises of this nature.

In reply to questioning: It is correct that I accompanied
Brand and Bandi Gross to Vienna for their flight to Turkey.
However, it is not correct that I am supposed to have told
Brand before the flight left that he should make it known
abroad that there were still decent SS Leaders, such as
myself and Wisliceny.  I never said anything of the sort.

In reply to questioning: I do not know any details about
Becher's business with Brand.  I was never brought into this
transaction.  Eichmann sent me to Vienna with Brand for his
flight.  I had to fetch Gross from somewhere else, on the
orders of a Hauptsturmfuehrer from the office of Commander
Geschke.

After being shown page 31 of the Kasztner Report on the
postcards from "Waldsee," I wish to state that I know
nothing of anything like this.

In reply to questions: The name of my Section was, as far as
I remember, "Special Operations Commando."  I forget whether
it had Eichmann's name added or not.

I do remember negotiations between Kasztner and Becher. I
know that I twice accompanied the two of them to the Swiss
border.  Once they both concluded negotiations with Saly
Mayer in the middle of the bridge.  I forget exactly what
was negotiated.  It had something to do with the trucks
business, in return for the emigration of Jews.  The second
time Becher crossed the border to Switzerland with Kasztner.
I remained behind and therefore do not know what was
negotiated.

When I had already been transferred to Vienna, around
October-November 1944 - in any case, it was already cold and
we were wearing coats - I had to go to Budapest because I
wanted to fetch foodstuffs there, in order to improve the
supplies for our Section.  On the way to Budapest, not very
far from the Hungarian border, I saw groups of Jews, on
foot, accompanied by Honveds or gendarmerie.  The column of
Jews was stretched out, guards were few and far between, and
the people looked exhausted.  Some of them were sitting and
lying around on the road.  I did not see people who had been
shot, nor any other corpses.  The people were wearing
clothes, but I forget what kind of clothing.  That day the
weather was bright.  I no longer remember whether there were
also women there.  They were adults.  In Budapest I went to
see Eichmann about the matter; I told him about this
transport and its state and remonstrated with him that this
was inadmissible.  I believed that he could have intervened
in the matter.  The only thing Eichmann said when I
remonstrated with him was: "You have not seen anything";
whereupon I went to Winkelmann and informed him of my
observations, but my impression was that he had already been
informed of the circumstances I had observed.

In reply to questioning: When I was in Vienna, transports
arrived from Hungary of entire Jewish families.  These were
not transports on foot but rail transports.  The people were
definitely in a bad state.  The carriages were overcrowded.
It is possible that I complained somewhere about this state
of affairs, but I do not remember if I did so to Eichmann or
someone else.

I did not hear anti-Jewish comments from Eichmann, nor did I
observe Eichmann in my presence maltreating or manhandling a
Jew.

Around the end of April or in May 1944, i.e., the beginning
of May 1944, I lived with Eichmann in a large yellow house
on the Schwabenberg.  It was a large villa, which I thought
was lived in only in the summer.  At the back of the house
there was a large flight of stairs, underneath which there
may have been some sort of storage room.  In front of the
house was a sandy forecourt; the garden at the back of the
house dropped away steeply.  I do not remember there being a
garage, hut or shed at the back.  I also do not remember air-
raid trenches already there or being dug.  The latter I
would have seen, because very often I came back by the early
afternoon, as we were not very busy in the office.  It may
be that there was a tennis court next to the villa, below
the garden, alongside the next parallel road.  We only lived
there some three or four weeks.  After that, Eichmann moved
to a villa further down the hill, which I only visited once
or twice in the evening and cannot describe in more detail.
I did go there once to a dance party, where Endre was also
present.

When I lived together with Eichmann in the yellow house,
there was a man called Slawik with him.  However, he did not
work in the Section, he acted as caretaker for our billet. I
do not know whether he stayed with Eichmann in his later
villa.  Both villas were situated in an estate of villas
where the houses were detached, each in its own garden.
There were fruit trees planted at the yellow house.  I do
not know whether the second house also had fruit trees.  At
the time Eichmann was driving an amphibious vehicle.

Read out, approved and signed
(-) Hermann Krumey

In accordance with Paragraph 60 (3) of the Code of Criminal
Procedure, the witness was not sworn, as being suspect of
complicity.

(-) Rieber, Judge of First Instance
(-) Schweidler, Court Official

I hereby certify that the above photocopy corresponds to the
original.

Frankfurt (Main), 9 June 1961, Court of First Instance,
Dept. 932

Seal of the Court of First Instance, Frankfurt (Main)
(-) Rieber, Judge of First Instance

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