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To: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Jewish Zundel supporter
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Status: RO

I have interviewed Cole, and have conversed with him on several occasions.
The fellow struck me as seriously twisted, and badly in need of a bath to
boot. As I recall, the father was a professor of medicine at USC who was
tried for drug dealing. The mother basically let him run free without any
guidance save a general revulsion for religion. I am posting the
transcript of the interview. Forgive the spelling -- it was done on the
fly.

David Cole

23. Born, bred and raised in LA. I come from a long line of very secular
Jews, people who, like myself, are politically left of the spectrum. I
grew up with what be called your stereotypical liberal-secular education,
both at school and at home.  They have a different last name than me -- I
never wanted to get them in trouble. My father doesn't much approve of
what I do. I've never wanted any problem. The names are Al and Elma
Harvey. They are both in the sportswear manufacture and sales business to
mainly tourists. My mother does the drawings and designs, my father the
selling. I've never been much into lineage. For whatever reason determines
a person's personal views on this, I've always believed that what really
mattered about a person is themselves. What they do, how they are. I've
never needed a sense of identity beyond what I am myself and what I have
accomplished myself. Too much of the time, losers, which is my usual word
for racists or racialists, they try to overcompensate for the fact that
they are losers in their own right, that they don't have enough going on
in ther own lives, by claiming credit for what people who looked like them
did a hundred years ago. The same goes for whether it's blacks or Jews or
other people who in some way think that what happened hundreds of years
ago by people who might have looked like them or stood on the same soil as
their ancestors did really applied to their own lives.  I feel we are all
born individuals and we don't carry the sins of the father or their good
things. I've never needed religion. I am an atheist, a proud atheist. I
never felt a need for tradition or religion or knowing myself as a human
animal. 

Most history I don't give a fuck about. I never liked to call myself, and
I hope I wouldn't call myself an historian. History as a subject, although
I was always good at it in school, and liked it along with Engish, and was
bad at math and science, but history doesn't interest me to the point
that, if you ask me questions about most historical subjects in the world,
I will come up blank with an answer. What fascinates me is figuring out
complex problems, whether a historical jigsaw puzzle like this or other
subjects that fascinate me. For example, how the brain works, how the
human mind functions, which I think is a great unanswered question. But
unlike history, you can't study that too much without  spending years and
years studying neuroscience. What fascinates me about Revisionism is that
me, a lay person, literally, a person who never graduated high school,
I've been able to learn and become an active part in the process of
putting  together this jigsaw puzzle. It didn't take a Ph.D because we're
not really talking about a discipline that you have to be in school ten
years to master. All it realy is is trying to discern fact from fiction.
Any good mind, anybody's good mind, no matter what their background, can do
that. 

Grew up in West LA. I went to Castle Heights Elementary School in
neighborhood where my parents lived, one of the last single family
neighborhoods in west la, with no apartments, basically middle class
houses, predominantly a white elementary school. The junior high I went to
was Palms Junior HS in Palms, on Palms Blvd. where National meet Palms.
That was a black Latino school, very few white or Jewish students. It was
a new environment, and Hamilton High was the same way, Most of my friends
have been black or Latino. It's been difficult for me in the last few
years being labeled a racist because there probably isn't a less racist guy
that I know. And I know that sounds like some of my best friends. But in
my case it's not a cliche. 

I had one day's worth or Jewish education.  My mother remarried. My
biological father, whose last name was Cole, Leon Cole, a doctor, died 13
years ago. He was a research scientist at USC, he had a private practice
also. He was busted for selling narcotics, and spent the last years of his
life in court. He was one of those wealthier Beverly Hills physicians who
would give narcotics to celebrities. Including Elvis Presley. He died in
the late 70s. I was about 14. I never knew him except till I was six
months old. My mother remarried by the time I was four. Alan Harvey has
been my father. My mother had no Jewish education. She got me started on
atheism by telling me that religion was either something I would develop
my attitudes toward as I got older. When my mother rmarried Allan he came
from an Orthodox Jewish upbringing in London -- He grew up during the
blitz. WWII is an important subject fo him as his earliest memories are of
getting bombed. He had images of me going to Jewish schools and learning
Hebrew. He scheduled a day for me at Temple Isaiah on Pico. I went one day
and when the next weekend came around  I remember hiding under the table
screaming at my mother, I won't do this again. 

I never liked school in general and especially school where I felt I
wasn't learning anything. I just wasn't interested in it. The things I
remembered, Old Testament and having to learn Hebrew -- that wasn't for
me. I spent six semesters in French class and can't remember a word. 

When in Junior high school my friends and I made racial jokes about each
other all the time.  That's my sense of humor and theirs. In today's
politically correct climate someone might have screamed that we were being
racist. But nothing offends me, and I don't say that with trying to be a
smart ass. You can make any kind of religious or racial attack on me you
want -- nothing offends me, I don't care what other people think. I've
never in my life cared what other people think, as hopefully is evidenced
by my lousy looking facial hair. I don't care what people think or say
about me. Whether nature or nuture, i never felt the need to have to prove
myself to anyone else, nor to a god or religious leader. It's the way my
mother raised me. I never had a curfew, a limit on the kinds of words I
could use around the house, no rules. Whether that was good parenting or
bad, I don't know. Some children, you give them that kind of upbringing,
they go in the wrong direction. If I had children I would raise them that
way, because I'm not an authoritarian by nature. I am a confirmed happy
bachelor. God help me, women give me more trouble than anything. I love
the work I do. I love being a Revisionist because it is challenging to me.
If that was all that was in my life I would be a happy man. Women drive me
crazy. The women in my life are going to put me in a madhouse before the
Jewish Defense League or anyone else. 

I just do revisionism full time. Any money I make is from revisionism. The
majority of the money I have, when i  was a senior in high school I had
decided that college was not going to be for me. Mainly because I didn't
want to get up and go to school for any more years. I was done with that
and wanted to sleep in. I'm up till 4 am  and no way was I going to get up
at 7 am for anything. What I wanted to do with my life at that time I felt
didn't require college. Back then I wanted to be a screenwriter, or a
writer of some kind. For about a year I had a literary agent and wrote
screenplays but I soon decided I wasnt going to go back to that unless I
had the money or resources to get a film made the way I wanted to make it.
I didn't just want to sell scripts blindly. When I decided college wasnt
for me, concurrently I got into a really nasty fight with my high school
drama teacher, the same at Hamilton high school now. The drama and music
teacher. Mr. Jakowski decided to flunk me in all three classes I had him
in, and that left me five credits short of my diploma. That didn't matter
to me at all. I'd been the star actor for three years and developed an ego
that was much too big for my place in the school. As a result I got into a
couple of clashes over casting of some scenes. Robert Jurkowski and
William Teaford. W I decided I wasn't going to go to ocllege, over the
years my parents had saved a college fund of some proportion. My mother
let me have it to invest. I invested it and it's grown and I'm living off
that. It keeps me from having that dreaded 9-5 job. 

I've only sold two things -- I did a video of Mark Lane, the lawyer,
author of Rush to Judgement: The Kennedy Conspiracy book. He;s your average
far left anti-Zionist liberal Jew. He's also the lawyer for Willis Cardo,
the head of the Institute for Historical Review and Liberty Lobby. He
fought the case for them against Mel Mermelstein, the survivor. When that
concluded in 1991, in Willis Cardo's favor, I did a 90 minute interview
with Lane on that court case. I sold the rights to that to the IHR and I
made $1500 from it. There's the video with Dr. Piper. That the IHR and
others sell. All told I've made $2000 from that. Plus I made $2000
videotaping the IHR convention, which I spread with the crew.

In 1988, I was a member of an atheist's group called atheists united.
David McCalden, the man who cofounded the IHR with Carto, and who died
from AIDS, met through this club because he was a rabid atheist. I had
already subscribed to the IHR's journal. I got bored with being a
screenwriter. My movies were too weird and personal for anyone to buy
them, I liked stories that explore characters, and usually rather than
being a high concept screenplay, mine would seem to producers too weird,
meandering, doesnt go anywhere, but if you're David Lynch you'll get credit.
I already knew who McCalden was. Politics interested me, not from the
point of view of a belief -- I've never subscribed to one politicl line
although I could easily call myself far left on most things. Or perhaps
just liberal because I could never be a conservative. I'm so
anti-conservative I tend to be liberal by default. I was more interested
in how we believe and why we believe -- why certain people ascribe to
ideologies and beliefs and how those ideologies are transformed into
organizations. I've always felt a political organization is like a living
organism, it always has to strive for its own survival and expansion --
raising money, getting supporters. I got this crazy idea that I was going
to join every single political group and ideology I could think of, and if
not do an expose, do a book on how people believe in ideologies  and how
that is transfered in political organizations that produce ideologies. So
from 1987 onward, I was everywhere. I ran a chapter of the revolutionary
communist party, I ran a John Birch society chapter. I had about five
different names, and there's literally not a part of the American
political spectrum I wasn't involved in. Apart from being a supporter and
subscriber to the ADL and the JDL, I have a World Jewish Congress card. I
worked for the Heritage Foundation on the right and the ACLU on the left.
And I love my sleep -- nothing can part me from my sleep. I also
subscribed to everything under the sun. My point in doing this was because
I felt superior to ideology -- I felt superior to the people I consider
the poor brainwashed idiots that toil their lives away in pursuit of
abstract concepts they invent partially and the people they read invent.
When I subscribed to the revisionist publications it was under that same
belief system. I felt superior to them. Here were more racialists, more
neo-nazis spewing their ideology, and like any other I'll be able to read
their stuff and disprove it. As I started reading I became frustrated. It
wasn't I hate Jews. I said, this stuff is so well written, this stuff is
tricky. These anti-Semites have hidden their hatred under mounds of
pseudo-historical babble. Whereas I could in my mind disprove what I
considered to be religious babble or the ideological babble of the far
left or the far right, I was having a hard time disproving what the
revisionists said. I thought these were  racists trying to get into the
mainstream using psychobabble. I went to a couple of older friends of mine
who knew about the Holocaust, friend of my family, Jews, and I brought
them some of this material, and I asked them, I said I need the answers to
disprove these points. They got furious at me. They said don't even read
that stuff, don't try to answer them. They got made at me for even soiling
their fingers.  So then I took it upon myself to read Holocaust books. I
had been a diehard believer in every Orthodox Holocaust story that was. I
had never read an actual Holocaust book -- Davidowitz, any of the
standards. So I read everything I could get my hands on, and at the same
time I placed orders from the various revisionists for books through the
IHR. Concurrntly when I ran into McCalden and  recognized him as the
discredited co-founder to the IHR, after two years of  operation they
split between Willis Carto and David McCalden, and they remained bitter
enemies. I befriended McCalden and thought I'd get to know him, he;ll take
me back to his  secret Nazi lair, and I'll see for my own eyes the
swastikas, and then I'll know these guys are charlatans. McCalden was a
racialist but was also sharp, knew that the future or Revisionism would
not lay in the hands of someone like Willis Carto who tends to enjoy
catering to a racist market. His market is far right borderline racialist.
McCalden saw a future for revisionism breaking out of its far right roots,
seprating out those who were revisionists because they were German
nationalists or wanted to knock the Jews, he wanted to move it more into
the historical mainstream. He didn't know I was a Jew, but I always felt I
came off talking and looking like a Jew anyway, so I told him I was and he
was reasonable. He gave me some literature. I still wasn't buying his
stuff. But I spent months talking and corresponding with him. And at this
point, I was conviced that the efforts to suppress Revisionism, especially
in European countries and until September in Canada, I felt were bad. I
was also staring to get the idea that revisionists had a point. That
whatever might have happened in those camps, it was not well documented,
period. Apart from anecdotal evidnce I couldnt find the documentation I
needed to prove three main points: were there gas chambers, was there an
actual plan to commit genocide or was it standard wartime brutality; and
how many died. Is the six million figure genuine. 

For a year I worked for McCalden. He gave me information and I infiltrated
meetings with Irv Rubin. I would get into places McCalden couldn't because
everyone knew his face. When he died I wanted to pursue it further. 

Every person has his unique motivation. Every person comes to this spot
from their own personal journey. Statistically the greatest percentage of
people in revisionism now are there because they're either German
nationalists or want something that knocks Jews in some way. They are
anti-Semites. The second greatest percentage of people who are interested
in history. Especially in Europe, whre this whole thing happened, where
they have passed these strict laws about writing or speaking about
revisionism has ended up driving it into the corner. Only the extremists
are involved because who else wants the tzuris of going to jail, getting
your job taken away? Most extremists like fighting. In munich last year I
witnessed a lot of brawls between the idiot kids on the far right  and the
idiot anarchists on the far left. They like dressing up in fancy costumes,
waving  flags around and going into the streets brawling. They don't have
any particular viewpoint, some ended up on the left and some on the right.
It's like marbles. Throw em in the air and they'll end up in different
directions. 

Because it's very difficult now to be a revisionist it's been left to the
extremists. To the German nationalists this is a matter of reclaiming
pride because the things they've been told they did they can say are
propaganda. If you let people talk about it freely, if you let a college
professor talk about it without worrying abot being fired or riots in his
office you will see it come into the mainstream.  And then people will see
it lose it's power. People don't give a shit about history. Most people
care about what is emotionally important to them. If this had remained a
historical issue it wouldn't have been as big a it is now. People in it
today are in it because of a righteous anger about the oppressive
techniques that have been used to dispell it.

I took the story very personally. There would be nothing I would have
applauded more than killing a Nazi or extradicting a war criminal. Now I
don't like Nazis or defend Nazis and I would be more than happy to see a
Totalitarian government like Hitler's defeated. But I don't believe in the
same stories I did when I was younger.

I would say that Zundel is a German nationalist/Nazi. I like him
personally. He's a very funny, very nice, very charming man. He can charm
the pants off of anyone. Because of my activities I have friends on every
side of the spectrum, from Black Muslims to Zionists. The real test of my
ability to befriend people I disagree with fundamentally came last year
when I dated a pro-lifer.  To me there is nothing more despicable.
Pro-choice is the only thing that gets me angry. The abortion debate
enrages me to action. But last year that was the big question -- could I
go out with someone I really despised?  If she was good looking enough,
sure I could. My alliegances are to people, not ideas or concepts. I'd
fight to the death for a woman's right to chose, and for freedom in
general. I'm so far left I am an anarchist. I prize my own freedom. I
don't really give a shit about the rest of the world. I'm going to be dead
in 70-80 years max. I would take care of my children, but the world is not
my responsibility.  Other people are not my responsibility. And more
trouble has been caused in this world by people claiming other peoples
their responsibility. If everyone could have a laissez faire attitude this
world could be great. Unfortunately, we know that human life doesnt happen
in a vaccum. If you don't oppose something you dont like that thing might
win. You can't really withdraw completely from humn actions. I take part
in clinic fights against opertion rescue blockaders. The only time I'll
get out to vote if its a pro-lifer against a pro-choicer. 

I don't demonize German nationalism the way other people do. I'm not a
nationalist for anybody. I'm not a German nationalist or a Jewish
nationalist. As such, I think I can sympathize with all nationalists
equally. I don't agree with any of them but people who have the concept
that this land is just for us, -- I don't agree but I don't demonize one
over the other. I think a lot of Jews come to that point of view because
of what must threaten them personally. That's understandable. But I can't
demonize someone because his ideology might be alien to Jews. I don't
support nazism or Nazis but at the same time rights have been taken away
from Arabs in Israel, from people in black countries, but I would not
think twice about having a black nationalist friend. 

Ernst Zundel and I have a very clear understanding Anything I do for him
or with him I must always have complete freedom of speech to state my
positions on issues such as race, freedom or nationalism. When I have have
given interviews to publications with racialist readers, I always stress
my views on these things. I usually turn the screw in by saying not only
am I in favor of race mixing, but that I will do so at the drop of a hat,
and have. 

Zundel and I met at the first time at Auschwitz. He and I did a tape
together. We spoke over the phone twice and wrote once. After that he
asked me to come up to Toronto to speak for David Irving. Irving is more
strict with Zundel than me. Irving will not have him present at any
meeting place because he doesnt want the Zundel  karma, he doesn't want
the press to make a connection. I don't give a damn, as long as people
understand that I have my own views on things. 

Zundel interviewed me on video. I wrote a letter to the Ontario Attorney
General, and a few weeks ago did an interview for a radio show. He doesn't
pay me, he calls me once a month or so. If people are going to call me a
puppet you might as well go with Willis Carto instead of Ernst Zundell.

I don't think I'm helping to further anything but revisionism. When I talk
that's all I talk about. Ernst Zundel has lost more supporters because of
his relationship with me than he has gained. There's a fellow in upstate
New York who writes a racist newsletter who spent since November slamming
him and me. On the one hand I feel he's been let down by the freedom
lovers of the world who have not fought to keep him out of jail based upon
what he writes. I don't believe in anyone going to jail for hat they
write, whether it's Adolph Hitler in his cell or the Devil himself. When
Zundel drove into Poland, we had ever met, and he had every reason to
believe it might be a setup of some kind. Even though he is a wanted man
in Germany -- there is a warrant against him -- he still came to europe
and came to Poland to meet with me not with a security force of skinheads,
but with a 70 year-old man who lives in Germany. The meeting ws his idea.
At first I didn't know how to take it. I asked myself, do I want the
baggage, to be seen in  public knowing he is a German nationalist. It
wasn't an easy decision for me. He says he is extending a hand to the
German community, and I believe him when he says he judges people
individually. I think he's a German nationalist but not a raving racist.
But he has a market he produces for. It brings him money. What people
don't realize about Willis Carto and Ernst Zundel, these people are
businessmen, they live off ideology, they don't have day jobs. They don't
have a wife who works outside. Carto has built a financial empire. He is a
very wealthy man. Carto  does not believe a lot of what he tells his
supporters. It's very hard to turn a society extremist. By and large
people are not ideological extremists. The majority of people you would
find in any ideological extreme government are there to make a living. The
true believers are always the minority. The majority of people in the last
70 years of communism were squirreling away meat and consumer goods for
themselves. They didn't give a damn about spreading revolution. Business
still rules the world. I am a firm believer money talks everywhere. That's
why when people ask me if as a Revisionist I may be helpig to bring about
some ideological extreme, a rise in anti-Semitism, well if by that you
mean is someone going to kick over a Jewish tombstone out of anger after
reading one of Zundel's newsletters, perhaps. You can never put your thumb
on the whackos, just like you can never know who's going to get fired and
shoot up the work place. You can't make people stop firing people just
because someone might come back as a disgruntled employee. 

I would never want to live in his world, and if he were running for office
I wouldn't vote for him. How am I helping national socialism by writing
about history the way I see it? People have an inalienable right to use
information the way they want to. The majority of information that exists
exists because people have a use for it. There are very fw people who
study objectively for the fun of it, Most people do it because they want
to make money or its important to them. The problem we have in revisionism
is mirrored by what right wingers would say about the civil rights
movement in the 50s. Then, communists, and there were, tried to use the
movement to get supporters. But the actual leaders, the Kings and malcom
Xs would be slandered by people saying you're communists becuase the
People's Daily Worker touted the same line you do. 

I've learned alot because of Zundel. When I went to Germany, he introduced
me to aa lot of people who fought on Germany's side in WWII. This was
interesting, a learning experience. It didn't make me any more friendly to
Nazism, but it was part of a learning process. I can sit in a room with a
former SS member and hear him talk for two or three hours and not be
convinced he's right, but hear the other side of the coin as expressed by
people on the other side. They might be speaking from edited nostalia but
I enjoy hearing it just like I enjoy hearing people on the Holocaust side
give their point of view. Also, through Ernst Zundel I have been able to
meet Irving and others and learn from them. He's shared details and
writings I had not been exposed to. 

I don't know much about Irving. He is your stereotypical cold, dead
English fish. He's not a man you warm up to. He is cold even to his
supporters. I have never been able to worm my way into his good graces. I
do think he is an anglophile. He bemoans the fact that Britain lost its
empire. I say good for the Africans kicking the colonialists down.

I wore a yalmulke into Auschwitz. I'm guilty as charged for wearing the
yalmulke for mercenary reasons. It was calculated on my part. My point was
I did not want to be put in the position of having to tell the people
there I wanted to interview where my sympathies were. I didn't know how I
would handle that. I didn't know whether I would be honest and hope for
the best or lie to them. There was no way I would be able to get the money
to get back to Europe. This was my one shot at getting an interview.
Byseeing that I was jewish they would not sk me how I felt. I was using
their own black and white world view against them. Their own world view
would tell them I could not be a revisionist because I am Jewih and it
worked like a charm.

I don't think what I did is any different from what reporters do every day
of the week by pretending to be patients going to interview doctors. I
didn't use hidden cameras or mies. Reporters o that far as well. I don't
think it was any ethical violation to not state who you are to get an
interview. Remember that Dr Piper is an employee of the Polish government.
They should not have a different shpiel for different people.  They should
not have one for revisionists and one for others. I knew the rvisionists
would not get an interview. I did not want to risk that. I did not go to
Europe for my health.  I went for one reason -- to investigate the camps.
The thing with Zundel happened long after I bought my ticket. 

When I say obnoxious in the video I'm being humorous. I don't think I was
badgering her. I was very polite. What I learned after only an hour that
Alicia had a memorized spiel and was not allowed and couldn't vary from
it. When you become a tour guide you aren't there as a historian. They are
mainly working people from Aiswiecm with language skills. So this is my
second or third day, I gave myself six days there, and I learned what the
officieal spiel was. That's why the piper interview was important. He was
the man who should have known the answers to my questions. 

This is what galls me about the Revisionists. Piper says about Prima One
had been a gas chamber, then an air raid shelter rebuilt by the soviets.
He said this on video to two cameras. I release the tape. Piper releases
his letter that says Cole came to me under false pretenses, I never want
to be associated with revisionism, but then he restates the same points he
told me. Dr. Piper's comments are presented on videotape and again in the
letter. What he said in the video was nothing new anyway. 

I was 19 when I became a revisionist. No one incident. It was after I had
finished reading all the books on both sides, as many as I could fit in.
I've read every major book important to the debate. Hier and I had a minor
run in. I went to his museum when it opened. Hier differs greatly from the
people who put together the museum in Washington. That one is very
reserved in gas chamber proaganda, whereas Rabbi Hier throws in everything
under the sun. There are serious flaws there. When I went to the opening
week Rabbi Hier was there and he saw me leaving and announced aloud, any
of you guys know the IHR? And two security guards started walking toward
me. We were on our way out. Im not interested in trouble. If Rabbi Hier
wants to talk to me my number is everywhere. God knows I don't hide it
from anyone.

In January on 92 48 hours flew a crew to LA to do what they told me would
be a segment on revisionism. They spent four or five days interviewing me.
When the show aired nothing of me was included and only a couple of
minutes of Bradley Smith. She's only a segment producer. I wasn't wired
alone, I was wired and being  followed by a four person camera crew. It
was a new experience fo me. I was at UCLA to give a debate, but it didn't
happen. I was also to talk to some people at a black nationalist newspaper
in UCLA called NOMO. Judy got this bright idea I'd get into the Nomo
office in the Daily Bruin building  with a mike and a crew and be myself.
I dont know how they think that's possible. Everyone was staring at me.
The guy who opened the door at Nomo thought it was a raid. We went out but
I gave the the JDL the benefit of the doubt I could talk to them person to
person. 

I was wired, I did what Judy Bernstein told me to do. You can't blame me.
I didn't know it was illegal. I had one thought -- not fucking up in front
of a camera or getting killed. The wiring part never crossed my mind. There
were no expenses. I wish I had some of that CBS news money There was no
payment. On Montell Williams, there was no money either. 

Judy did me the credit of talking with me at her hotel for about five
hours. She asked all the right questions, she was genuinely interested in
the topic. She was cynical about Revisionism, which is good.

My father's initial response was to have nothing to do with me. My mother
-- it would never come between us. Even now there's a kind of detente, we
don't talk about him. If I mention it, it will infuriate him.  They are
middle class Americans who might face new taxes and would not want to do
anything that might interfere with their living.


Visited Auschwitz

September 92. Two and a half weeks. First week in Poland, second in Czech,
Aust. and Germany. Was there 6 days. Visited Lublin, Maidenek. 


posted by Sheli Teitelbaum


[An article based upon this interview material appeared in the
Jerusalem Report]

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