Archive/File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-035-02
Last-Modified: 1999/06/01

Presiding Judge: Has he been mentioned before? I do not
recall his name.

State Attorney Bach:  I think that this Seidl was also
mentioned in connection with Poland.  He was one of those
who  together with Krumey, deal with the question of
Festigung des deutschen Volkstums (Strengthening of German
Folkdom) and the deportations.  Seidl will also be mentioned
again when we submit the chapter on Yugoslavia, where he
dealt with the deportation of the Slovenes.  These people
turn up sometimes in one country and sometimes in another.
But there are many documents relating to Seidl.

Now here it says that SS Sturmbannfuehrer Guenther "was most
surprised that this (the sterilization) had been started
without the knowledge of the Head Office for Reich Security.
He declared that making the sterilized Jews available for
work in the East, after the solution of the problem of mixed
marriages, was out of the question and that the sterilized
Jews would be deported just like the others."  Not only had
these operations been performed on these persons, but there
is no reason not to deport them, says Guenther, and they too
must be deported to the East.  "The Jewish question in
Europe has to be solved, because the Jew alone is
responsible for the War and has to be removed from Europe,
whether sterilized or not."

Only one last sentence, also from Guenther.  There had been
a proposal to leave behind some Jews who were important for
industry in the Netherlands.  Guenther says that "it is out
of the question that several thousand Jews should be left in
each country.  All the Jews have to be removed from the
occupied zones; they can just as well work for the munitions
industry in the East."  He says that "the same suggestions
were also made from Greece, France, etc., but were rejected.

Presiding Judge: Where was the Accused at that time?  Why
did he not take part in this discussion?
State Attorney Bach:  This may have been a question of rank.
That was Werner, an assistant of Zoepf.  This is also the
reason why we find that the report is submitted to Zoepf, to
Harster and to Miss Slottke.  When the experts themselves
travel, they talk to Eichmann.  When it is the assistants of
the experts who travel, they talk to assistants, although
Guenther, Novak and Hunsche were, of course, top echelon
immediately after Eichmann.

Presiding Judge: The document will be marked T/554.

State Attorney Bach:  Our next document is No. 1070, a
letter from the same Werner, assistant of Zoepf.  By the
way, the Court will note that they sign: Den Haag, IVB4.
This is what they called the office in the Netherlands
identical numbering, but this is the Dutch office IVB4.  And
Werner writes to IVB4 in Berlin, to Novak, and enquires
whether 200 persons, who are concentrated in the Jewish camp
of Westerbork, may be sent to Theresienstadt or whether they
have to be transferred to Bergen-Belsen.  This demonstrates
who had to make the decision about the destination and
purpose of the transport of these people.

Presiding Judge: Please do not mix arguments and submission
of documents.  This will be marked T/555.

State Attorney Bach:  The next document is our No. 463,
exhibit T/37(270).  It is a letter from Harster to the
Reichskommissar, the representative of the Reich.  He states
that Jews cohabiting in mixed marriages, with or without
children, in the Netherlands will be exempted from the
obligation of wearing the Star of David on proof of their
sterility.  Then he states the address to which Jews and
Jewesses who want to be medically examined or sterilized
have to be directed: The Central Jewish Hospital in
Amsterdam.

Presiding Judge: This will be exhibit T/556.

State Attorney Bach:  The page in the statement of the
Accused is 3232.

The next document is our No. 603.  It was shown to the
Accused and the number is T/37(204).  It is a letter from
the Accused to Harster.  He refers to a consultation about
the Vught camp, where there are still 2,400 Jews.  "It is
agreed that these Jews are to be evacuated gradually to the
East (Auschwitz concentration camp) within the next few
weeks, while avoiding major interference with production,
unless the consultation planned for the next few days
between the commander of Hertogenbosch concentration camp
and SS Obergruppenfuehrer Rauter leads to a different
result."

Presiding Judge: This will be exhibit T/557.

State Attorney Bach:  There follows an instruction: "I
request the 700 Jews* {*The 700 so-called preferred Jews in
Barneveld} be seized for the holding camp Bergen-Belsen."

Judge Halevi:  It is interesting here that the conversation
took place in the Wirtschaft-Verwaltungshauptamt (Head
Office for Economic Administration), Pohl's office.  I think
that, in his interrogation, the Accused kept saying that the
destruction of the Jews was Pohl's affair, not his.
State Attorney Bach:  It is correct that from the
administrative point of view the Wirtschaft-
Verwaltungshauptamt had a certain measure of authority over
the camps.  For instance, on matters concerning Jews there
had to be coordination.  But, in compliance with the
Presiding Judge's remark, I do not, at present, wish to
comment.  When the time comes we shall have something to say
about coordination between the two offices.  The present
letter will, of course, be one of the documents relevant to
this point.

The next document is our No. 592; it was shown to the
Accused and numbered T/37(206).  Werner again reports about
a conversation, a discussion and consultation with SS
Hauptsturmfuehrer Novak in the Head Office for Reich
Security.  I shall only read the first sentence; there are
minute details here about the coordination procedures, which
need not be read out.  "In the consultation with Novak I
pointed out that, in accordance with information from SS
Hauptsturmfuehrer Haas - Bergen-Belsen camp - no more Jews
can be received there."  New barracks had already been
requested.  "...has already approached the Head Office for
supply of barracks for the Bergen-Belsen camp."  There is
also mention here of 400 Palaestinajuden who are at a
certain stage to arrive in Bergen-Belsen.

Presiding Judge: Under number 6, the Protestant Jews
(Evangelische Juden) are mentioned.

State Attorney Bach:  The Palaestinajuden - this ties up
with Dr. Melkman's testimony.

Presiding Judge: This will be exhibit T/558.

State Attorney Bach:  The next document is our No. 606,
which was shown to the Accused as No. T/37(189).  It is a
letter from the Accused to the Commander of the Security
Police - Naumann.  At a certain stage Naumann replaced
Harster.  This Naumann had been Commander with the
Einsatzgruppen before he became Commander of the Security
Police in the Netherlands.  "As has been learned here in
strict confidence, passports or immigration certificates
have been issued to a number of Jews living in Amsterdam,
Rotterdam and in Westerbork camp through the intermediary of
the Joodsche Raad (Jewish Council) and other private
persons."  Here follows a list of persons: Passports for
Ecuador - to Koppel, Sussman and others; a passport for
Haiti; passports for Honduras; several certificates for
Palestine; some passports for Paraguay together with the
names of the persons who received them.  The Accused
continues: "Furthermore, through the Jewish Council and
through private persons named hereafter, passports and
certificates were delivered to the following Jews, whose
exact addresses are not known, but who are assumed to be
living in Amsterdam."  Here follows again a list of
passports.  He requests that each of these cases where
passports were issued be checked.

He speaks about preventive measures to be taken.  "As
preventive measures I request to decree the following for
the Westerbork camp: (1) The right to correspond accorded to
the Jews is restricted to one postcard per month per Jew, to
be put into effect immediately; (2) the text has to be clear
and limited to a greeting or an unimportant piece of
personal information."  There are some further instructions.
"For the purpose of clarifying the general aspects of the
matter, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Moes will come to you for
consultation in the near future."  Signed - Eichmann.  Moes
is also one of his assistants, a man of whom he speaks a
lot, and indeed, Moes arrived in the Netherlands and was
active there.

The Accused testified about this document on page 2315, and
on page 2319 he was asked whether he remembered that he in
fact gave this order to restrict the right to correspond
from Westerbork camp, and he replies: "Die Anordnungen
wurden jetzt von mir erteilt, jawohl" (The orders were now
given by me, yes).

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/559.

State Attorney Bach:  The next document is our No. 301.
Here we have a request from the Swedish Legation to the
German Foreign Ministry in Berlin for a death certificate
for a man, a Jew named Leefmans, who died in Auschwitz
concentration camp.  This certificate is needed, so it is
said, for the purpose of payment of insurance.  This was
shown to the Accused - as number T/37(78).  This document is
transmitted to Section IVB4, and Guenther sends the required
certificate.  Earlier on, about two weeks ago, we submitted
another document in which it was stated that a death
certificate for a person who died in a concentration camp -
that the office which has to give such certificates is the
same office which sent him there.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/560.

Judge Halevi:  Which previous document are you referring
to?

State Attorney Bach:  I shall clarify this.  I think it was
already among the general documents which we submitted in
the beginning.  But I shall look into this point.

The next document is No. 602.  Now the Accused himself
arrives in the Netherlands.  And here we have a memorandum
on a meeting which took place on 10 November 1943, the
participants being SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, the
authorized representative of the Reich Diamond Office,
Assessor Hahnemann, and Zoepf.  The discussion concerns the
fate of the diamond merchants, who had a special position at
first because they were needed for the diamond industry, and
also for another purpose.  And here it says: "The Jewish
diamond workers are to be left free for the time being, and
their relatives are to be concentrated in Westerbork."

Presiding Judge: That is to say, not only the diamond
merchants but also the diamond workers.

State Attorney Bach:  I think that the workers were actually
important for the German industry.  "Releases or arrests,
respectively, of family members are to be carried out as in
List A."  In order to make sure, nevertheless, that these
people will be at the disposal of the Germans if needed, the
families are to be arrested in any case.  This memorandum
was also transmitted to the Accused.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/561.

State Attorney Bach:  The number of the page in the
statement is 2449.

State Attorney Bach:  The next number is 506, T/37(207).
Zoepf reports about a further meeting between Eichmann and
Hahnemann, in which Eichmann is informed that a secret order
has been given, according to which it is no longer the BdS
in The Hague who is to deal with Jewish matters, but the
Official in Charge (der Beauftragte) Dr. Schroeder, together
with SS Sturmbannfuehrer Lages.  I should like to explain
here that Sturmbannfuehrer Lages had a special function: He
was the KdS (Commander of the Security Police) in Amsterdam.
While Harster - later Naumann - was BdS for the whole of the
Netherlands, Lages was Commander of the Security Police in
Amsterdam only.  And now this man Schroeder, together with
Lages, was appointed to deal with the Jews.  Eichmann was
very annoyed: "No information has been received through
service channels about such an arrangement.  Besides, the
representative of the Head Office for Reich Security" - i.e.
Eichmann - "has expressed the view that it would be contrary
to the orders of the Reichsfuehrer-SS and also illogical if,
at this late stage, the Jewish question, which was declared
a matter for the Security Police by the Reich Commissioner
himself, were now to be dealt with by other authorities.  I
have therefore merely taken note of the two communications."

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/562.

State Attorney Bach:  Another meeting - our No. 1352.  This
is a meeting in The Hague.  The participants: SS
Brigadefuehrer Naumann, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, SS
Sturmbannfuehrer Zoepf and SS Obersturmfuehrer Gemmeker.
Gemmeker was commander of Westerbork, as we heard today.
The document states:

     "(a) In Westerbork, about 600 Jews waiting for
     punishment and 400 Jews intended for Palestine exchange
     are ready for transportation to Auschwitz; (b) about
     1,300 Jews who have been put in readiness for
     Theresienstadt can be dispatched from Westerbork; (c)
     in accordance with information from SS Gruppenfuehrer
     Glueck, the Jews left in Hertogenbosch concentration
     camp, with the exception of diamond cutters, furriers
     and metal graders, will be deported to Auschwitz
     concentration camp on 13.11.43."

I shall read only one more paragraph, (h), marked by an
arrow in the German document: "An attempt is being made,
through increasing the premium per head, to increase
considerably the monthly arrests of Jews in hiding."  That
is also one of the points decided by these gentlemen, to
raise the premium per head.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/563.

State Attorney Bach:  The Court will see, I am sure, that
about the "diamond Jews" it is said (by the participants in
the meeting) that they do not accept the arrangement as
definite, and that the final decision must be taken by the
Reichsfueehrer-SS.

Judge Halevi:  Who are the "Palestine Jews" - are these more
Jews for the purpose of exchange?

State Attorney Bach:  There were 400 Jews there in readiness
for Auschwitz.  That was number (a): Abtransport nach
Auschwitz (deportation to Auschwitz), they are in
Westerbork; 600 Jews who have to be punished; and 400
"exchange Jews."

Judge Halevi:  But they are mentioned again in paragraph
(d).  Who are these people?

State Attorney Bach:  They really seem to be the Jews who
were afterwards sent to Bergen-Belsen.  One of them is the
witness Dr. Melkman.  I assume that this also includes him.
He was at that time already there, and he was sent to Bergen-
Belsen, and he is one of those who were on the Palaestina
Austausch (Palestine exchange) list, so that he is certainly
included among these 1,000 Jews.

One more individual decision: Our No. 130, T/37(18), page
596 in the statement.  To von Thadden: "The treatment of the
members of the family of the Jew Hochheimer is at present
under consideration.  It is, however, not intended to grant
them permission to emigrate.  I shall send further
information at the proper time." Signed: Eichmann.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/564.

State Attorney Bach:  Now, Your Honours, our No. 607 -
T/37(209).  It says that somebody from the Ministry for
Armament and Munitions has asked for the release of seven
Jews who are to occupy themselves with the purchase of
metals hidden in the country: Lichtenstern, Sachs,
Oberlaender and others.  It was explained to him that a
release of arrested persons is out of the question, in view
of the advanced stage of the removal of the Jews from the
Netherlands.  However, an exceptional gesture would be made,
and the matter would be deferred until clarification of the
question of the "diamond Jews."  And now the most important
sentence: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Moes, the representative of
the Head Office for Reich Security, Berlin, who took part in
these negotiations - the man whom Eichmann had sent there -
was asked to send a telegram from Berlin saying that the
release or deferment of the above-mentioned Jews is refused.

Presiding Judge: Here we have the signature of that Miss
Slottke for the first time.

State Attorney Bach:  Yes, she took down the minutes.  It
was decided there not to say no.  They sent Moes and asked
for a telegram from Berlin which would forbid the release of
those people.

Presiding Judge: T/565.

State Attorney Bach:  Your Honours, such a thing does not
have to be said twice: In document 608 the telegram arrives.
Document 608, which is also T/37(205), is a telegram from
Guenther saying that, in view of the imminent total removal
of all Jews from the Netherlands, it is impossible to grant
the request of representative so-and-so and of such and such
Jews (the names of the Jews are given here), and they have
to be returned.  Furthermore, it is requested that the Jews
already acting as buyers of metals, etc., be immediately
arrested and returned to Westerbork camp.

Presiding Judge:  T/566.

State Attorney Bach:  Page 2426 in the statement.

And now document No. 610, on the same subject.  Following
Guenther's telegram, Zoepf writes to Aus der Fuenten in the
Central Office for Jewish Emigration, and again the contents
is the same: In view of... etc., these Jews have to be
returned to Westerbork; later on they are to be sent to
Theresienstadt, etc.

Presiding Judge: T/567.

State Attorney Bach:  Here I also draw attention to the
channels of communication: Zoepf - Guenther, Guenther -
Zoepf, Zoepf - Aus der Fuenten.  That was the procedure for
transmitting instructions.
The next document, No. 622, is also No. T/37(198). Zoepf
writes to the Judenlager (Jewish camp) Westerbork about a
consultation with SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Moes from the Head
Office for Reich Security and names some Jewish buyers,
Heimann and others, who had earlier been active in a certain
organization, who are at present detained in Amsterdam, and
are to be taken to Westerbork.  He also gives instructions
on how they are to be treated there, they are to be accorded
a certain preference in conformity with their
qualifications;  page 2366 in the statement.

Presiding Judge: T/568.

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