Archive/File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-075-07
Last-Modified: 1999/06/08

Dr. Servatius:  It goes on - it says there "monthly
discussion of all the departments involved" (Hinckel).
What does this mean?

Accused:  To my regret I must repeat something by way of
explanation. I said that everyone certainly wanted the most
rapid emigration, but the central authorities did not create
the requisite conditions to enable this to take place. At
that time I gave this matter much thought, and came to the
conclusion that if monthly sessions were arranged at which
the difficulties to be overcome were discussed so that the
various central authorities could work together of their own
accord, and work out either legislative or purely
administrative ways of eliminating these difficulties, then
the work of both participating departments could be much
freer of friction, smoother and better.

Presiding Judge: Who is Hinckel?

Accused:  Hinckel was Reich cultural administrator in the
Reich Ministry of Propaganda, and was one of the few who at
least cared about emigration to the extent that he was ready
to do what he could within the framework of his official
responsibilities not to restrict emigration, but to promote
it. That is why I wanted to cite here the wish of the then
Reich cultural counsellor Hinckel as an example.

Dr. Servatius:  Finally there is still a remark about
territories (Madagascar).

What prompted you to make this note?

Accused:  Any solution had to be a half-measure, not only
for the countries from which the Jews emigrated, but also
for the countries to which the Jews went, and finally, and
most important, for the Jews themselves. At that time I had,
as I already have said, read The Jewish State and recognized
that this theme was the only one and most important thing*
{*Literally: "The egg of Columbus" - [simple solution to a
seemingly complex problem]}

 - to put the Jews on their feet in their own land, and with
this all the difficulties would automatically be averted.
These thoughts which I had at that time, which I express
here in brief - telegraphically - induced me to propose this
as a further means of solution, and it seemed to me to be
the only means of solution that would be possible at all. I
put Madagascar in parenthesis here because I said to myself
at that time...I remembered at that time that even Herzl in
his book, though reluctant to depart from Palestine, gave
his consent to Madagascar as a temporary emergency solution,
despite the difficulties he faced within his own Zionist
circle. Thus that was, I would just like to say, a brief
reference or short reminder to myself that despite
difficulties, some country, though temporary at first, no
matter which, was necessary; the main thing was that one
would have soil under one's feet. That was the significance
of this note at point 3.

Dr. Servatius:  I come now to exhibit T/115, document No.
505. That is a telegram from London, a telegram from the
Secretary of State Kennedy to the State Department in
Washington.

Presiding Judge: Not the State Department, but the Embassy,
the Ambassador, isn't that so?

Dr. Servatius:  Secretary of State.

Presiding Judge: Secretary of State is the address. You said
of the Secretary of State. All right that is not important.

Dr. Servatius:  I understand it in that way, but it is not
essential. In any case, a written note from Kennedy in which
is reported Ribbentrop's attitude regarding Jewish
emigration. From this document it is evident that the
greatest difficulties were made regarding capital. In
addition, it is evident that on the part of the English,
there was definitely a willingness to be accommodating as
regards negotiations about Jewish emigration, but this then
miscarried because of Ribbentrop's impossible attitude. I
would like at this point to read this passage.

Presiding Judge: Is that not also parallel to T/110 to which
you have previously referred? That is the way I understand
it.

Dr. Servatius:  It is also marked T/115; it is possible that
there is a mixup here.

Presiding Judge: There we have a conversation with the
British ambassador and here a conversation with the American
ambassador.

Dr. Servatius:  A report is given about it, and here it says
that Berenger communicated to London that things look very
bad regarding emigration and then it says, I'm reading the
English text here: "Ribbentrop, when pressed, had said to
Bonnet that the Jews in Germany without exception were
pickpockets, murderers and thieves. The property they
possess had been acquired illegally."

Will the witness explain whether he became acquainted more
intimately with the attitude of Ribbentrop during the time
he worked in Department IV...moved in this direction?

Accused:  In this direction really only in the case of
preparing Horthy for the Hungarian affair, and one could
perhaps refer to Denmark. But for the rest, this whole
affair becomes [clear] when one reads the many documents
available here.

Dr. Servatius:  Your Honour, I come to another section, to
the rules for correspondence and the distribution of work.
First exhibit T/94, document No. 1241. Please refer to page
9 here. There under 6, directions are given for the handling
of mail arrivals; there is a special reception point.

I have a question to the witness: what is the significance
of "for SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann" on the documents?

Accused:  Exclusively a reference for the convenience of the
permanent staff at the central reception office, who were
enabled to expedite the matter because of the name. It had
no influence at all in any practical decision-making sense.
As a rule next to the name was a designation, using mine, as
an example: "Eichmann OVIA"* {*Abbreviation in German for
"oder Vertreter im Amt"} or "his representative in the
Department." This was essentially for expediting; it meant
nothing more.

Dr. Servatius:  Exhibit T/96, document No. 919. This deals
with a document concerning the creation of the Head Office
for Reich Security by consolidating previously separated
offices. It is noteworthy because of the last page, point 3.
This refers to the Geschaeftsverteilungsplan (Office work
plan). The plan follows immediately. It reveals that the so-
called special post and special offices are not provided for
in the distribution plan. Therefore I present the document.

Presiding Judge: I do not see that from paragraph 3 which
you have just cited.

Dr. Servatius:  On the last page it says thirdly: The
jurisdiction of the Head Office for Reich Security, their
subdivision into Groups (Gruppen) and Sections (Referate)
will be determined by the Geschaeftsverteilungsplan.

Presiding Judge: I find nothing here about what you have
read out. There is nothing at all about "Special Division."
That is what I wanted to say.

Dr. Servatius:  It comes presently in the next document, in
the scheme itself. I now have exhibit T/170, document No.
1398. This document of 21 December 1939 concerns a special
Referat (Section Head), and the Section is transferred to
Eichmann.

Will the witness explain the circumstances of the
establishment of this special Section which was transferred
to him?

Accused:  Himmler was made Reich Commissioner for the
Strengthening of German Folkdom around this time. The first
orders were issued by him, and the result was chaos in the
schedule in the technical respect; the negotiations with
local railroad authorities and with the Reich Transport
Ministry did not work out. The co-operation of the service
departments was non-existent; the individual Gauleiters
issued orders on their own; the Higher SS and Police Leaders
used orders which their superior Himmler had issued. In
short, everyone did as he pleased, and those who suffered
were the evacuees - Pole or Jew. For the transport trains
remained standing for days at the stations owing to delays
and hitches.

This was in itself the external motive which caused
Heydrich, then Chief of the Security Police of the Security
Service, to set up a special section which was responsible
for the co-ordination and, above all, the drawing up of
regular and orderly schedules in co-operation with the Reich
Transport Ministry. But when a special section has been set
up one cannot print immediately. For this reason a new
office was set up, a new work plan, so as to impart to the
section its planned official designation. Thus, such a
section remains a special section till a new office work
plan is put into circulation, and the pertinent post is made
available by the main personnel office and the local
personnel office respectively. And then the special section
head becomes a normal section head according to the plan.
This is not the custom in Germany alone - I recall, by way
of illustration, in reference to the production of the atom
bomb that in the United States of North America there were
hundreds of special departments and these special
departments were in part incorporated into the regular
internal administration, and in part were dissolved as
special departments only after having completed their
assignment.

Dr. Servatius:  We now come to the office work plan itself,
exhibit T/647, 1488,*{*Prosecution document No. 1588} scheme
of 1 February 1940. Please turn to the next to the last
page. There we find the group called IVD, that is the later
Group IVB.

Is what we have here the transition of the short special
Section into the regular Section?

Accused:  Yes, Sir. The special Section incorporated as
IVB4, to take effect from 5 February 1940, into the planned
structure of the Section of Department IV, or of the Secret
State Police Department, as it was called.

Dr. Servatius:  The Jewish Section was not included in your
Section in this plan, is this correct?

Accused:  In regard to Jews, I had to fulfil, at that time,
only those obligations connected with emigration. This is
why the Section is designated "Emigration and Evacuation."
As regards emigration - this was to be understood as
referring to the Jewish sector, and regarding evacuation -
the reference was the area of responsibility of the then
Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Folkdom,
the position to which Himmler was appointed; that is to say,
the evacuation of Jews and Poles from the Eastern German
Territories newly annexed to the Reich at that time - as
Hitler and Himmler had ordered - and in this respect merely
with regard to timetables, that is to say, in regard to
transport technicalities.

Dr. Servatius:  The next is T/99, document No. 36, an
additional office work plan of 1 March 1941. On page 16,
Group IVB is subdivided in greater detail. Under IVB, Group
Head Eichmann, are listed Jewish Affairs and Evacuation
Matters.

Will the witness explain how this expansion of his Section
came about?

Accused:  In the course of the progressive centralization
efforts conditioned by events during the War, all Jewish
matters were incorporated in the Section which the old
schedule designated as "Emigration and Evacuation," namely
my Section - that is all obligations, to the extent that
they were of importance for Department IV.  This was not
perhaps, as is erroneously believed sometimes, for the Head
Office for Reich Security.  In this case I had to deal with
all Jewish matters pertaining to Department IV. For
Department IV of the Head Office for Reich Security, I
became the official dealing with these matters.
Nevertheless, an autonomous treatment of this question by an
administrator within a single office was impossible in this
case, since the problem was not decided only within the
competence of that office. These problems were dealt with
jointly,            co-operatively, or with the
participation as well of other administrative sections of
Department IV, as well as the co-operation of the offices
among themselves. And in this case, as in all cases, the
director of Department IV retained the right to issue
instructions and orders in detail, as is clear and
indisputably evident from the depositions of witnesses. One
sees in this office work plan, by way of example, the
obligations of Department I. Here, the entire personnel
matters of the Head Office for Reich Security were dealt
with. On page 6 of this office work plan, criminal matters
relating to the service, and disciplinary matters of both
administrative departments for members of the Head Office
for Reich Security, are likewise specified. They, together
with their office chief, as a rule, came under the SS police
jurisdiction. Department II, appearing on page 7 deals in
its chief office with the central registration of all
incoming and outgoing items.  It was responsible for the
central card file, the mail reception center, the post for
opening and marking, the entire security set-up - regardless
of whether it was for the main building or the adjoining
ones.

When I said previously that the administrative Section IVB4
was only subordinate to Department IV, then my remarks are
substantiated on page 8 by the relevant unit division of the
office of the Main Department IIa, that is to say, first of
all IIa2 - Legislation - members of this administrative
department, the members are named in a series of documents;
moreover administrative department IIa5 was here responsible
for establishing cases of the most extreme form of hostility
to the State - seizure of property and deprivation of German
citizenship - hence areas which at the time were still being
handled in Department II; later on in a subsequent office
work plan these areas were incorporated in my administrative
Section. They were dealt with for the longest time by an
entirely different Department and not by Department IV. On
page...

Dr. Servatius:  I believe it is not necessary to take a
position in regard to every single point. But it is probably
essential to explain something of the position of the
Department Chief Mueller on page 14, that is to describe
what was immediately under the jurisdiction of your
Department Chief, and what effect it had. Department IV
"Research and Counteraction"..
.
Accused:  My official superior at that time, SS
Brigadefuehrer General Major of the Police Mueller had under
his immediate command the news gathering post, and contact
with foreign police forces. He was also the general border
inspector, in other words because of his immediate command
of the news gathering post, my former chief was exceedingly
well informed from primary sources, about all the goings-on
in the Reich and in the occupied areas, and scarcely any of
his subordinates could take a step, any official step
without his being informed of it in the shortest time. In
this way he was able to control the work of his Section
Chiefs at all times. The fact that he was at the same time
General Border Inspector meant that (to continue with the
example of my administrative department), I, by way of
example, could not permit any illegal emigration on my own
initiative, after the basic prohibition had been promulgated
by Himmler. The border police posts, in the course of their
responsibilities, would have had to report such occurrences,
and automatically they would have come to the attention of
the General Border Inspector, or his subordinate, and I
would have had to explain by what authority I had taken such
a measure.

But also even minor organizational matters which concerned
Department IV, could in my time be controlled by his
subordinate within Department IV. Even the inner
transactions within the administrative departments of
Department IV, were subject to the control of his bureau.
The question of the need for space and the question of space
allotment even of the individual officials and section heads
was arranged, approved or rejected centrally from his
bureau. The operational needs, the secret record office of
Department IV were centralized, but were later decentralized
after bomb attacks and the events of the War had shown this
to be more effective for the sake of prevention.

In other words, no administrative department and no
administrator in Department IV could boast of a special
position: all the administrative offices in Department IV
were lumped together by Department Chief SS Gruppenfuehrer
Mueller, and as the office work plan indicates, they were
subordinate in every respect to his continuous control.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, if it is convenient, we
would like to break off at this point, because it is late.

Dr. Servatius:  I still have a few questions regarding this
office work plan, which I will then put tomorrow.

Presiding Judge: All right, thank you.

The Session is adjourned till 8:30 tomorrow morning and will
continue until 2:30; there will be no afternoon session.

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