Archive/File: holocaust/usa wmm.0794
Last-Modified: 1994/10/29

From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Date: 2 Jul 1994 18:15:02 -0400
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Mr. Flygare asked Mr. Berg in the Subject heading Re: The consistency
of the denier mind (was re: Bacque) which I have reposted under this
heading:

>       I also wonder if Mr. Berg has any knowledge he would like to
share
>   with us on the behavior of German troops during World War II
towards
>   conquered civilian populations.  How about it?  Any comments on
this
>   subject, Mr. Berg? 

For a listing of some of the inconsistencies of the *Allies were the
good guys because we won* Mr. Flygare might wish to see Dr. Austin
App's Straight Look At The Third Reich (pp. 45-47):

The Balance of Allied and Nazi Atrocities
So brainwashed and propagandized the American and British public have
been that if you asked them which side committed the most atrocities,
the Germans or the victors, they would bridle up and deny that there
were any Allied atrocities at all, but the most abominable atrocities
in history by the Germans. Yet what is the balance sheet?
As we have indicated above here is a summary:

RAPE: the victors, mostly the Soviet Russians, raped one million
German, Austrian, and Hungarian girls and women; the German armed
forces; virtually none. [I personally am only too glad that our
crusaders did not brutally rape a million German girls as our
Lend-Lease pals did; I am glad they only starved them first, (until
1947, while the Morgenthau Plan was in force), and then seduced them
with a candy bar! (p. 21)]

SLAVE-LABORING PRISONERS OF WAR: the victors slave-labored some
2,000,000 German POW's, a majority unto death; the Germans none. [In
the book Other Losses it is proven conclusively that, in addition to
these, Eisenhower deliberately starved to death another one million
German Prisoners of War during and after the War, men and women, Ed.]

EXPULSION OF NATIVE POPULATIONS: the victors drove out 15,000,000;
the Germans, a few thousand, and not by expulsion, but by exchange.
[2,500,000 Germans were killed during these expulsions]

TOTAL ROBBERY: the victors totally expropriated the Oder-Neisse,
Sudeten, Volksdeutsche farms, homes, cattle, furniture, everything,
billions and billions of dollars worth; the Germans virtually none
except in internationally legal reprisals for assassinations and
partisan sabotage, as at Lidice and Rome, numbering at most in the
thousands.

COLD-BLOODED MURDER OF POW OFFICERS: the victors (the Soviet
Russians) murdered 15,000 Polish officers at Katyn and elsewhere, not
as reprisals but cold-bloodedly, and then at the Nuremberg Trials
attributing these murders to the Nazis; the Germans, none.

FORCED REPATRIATION OF CIVILIANS AND POW'S: the victors, namely the
Anglo-Americans, clubbed, shot, drugged some 2,000,000 prisoners, who
had fled Soviet Russia into the more civilized Nazi Germany, back
into the Soviet Union, where their leaders were shot and the rank and
file slave-labored. The name for this atrocity is Operation
Keelhaul; the Germans, not guilty of Operation Keelhaul.

DISMANTLING: the victors, even though they had made rubble out of
one-third of Germany by area bombing, demolished whatever factories
were left and transported the dismantled parts to their own lands,
mostly Soviet Russia; the Germans, (in their occupied territories),
not guilty of dismantling. 

THEFT FROM OCCUPIED CIVILIANS: the victors, Americans, with a pointed
gun or threat, took from German civilians watches, cameras, rings,
paintings, anything they could carry and mail, and the Soviet
Russians robbed all these things and everything else they could haul
off by railroad, even church bells; the Germans, in their occupied
territories, were correct.

CONCENTRATION CAMPS: the victors had at least 10 times more
concentration camps, and mostly bestially inhuman ones (Soviet
Russia), even the Rooseveltian U.S. had ten for Nisei and Issei,
ostensibly for potentially dangerous persons; the Germans also had
such concentration camps, not a fourth as many or as brutal as the
victors had and they were not death camps as alleged, but work camps,
including Dachau and Auschwitz. Concentration camps are not more
intrinsically evil than jails and prisons.

FOREIGN OR CONSCRIPTED LABOR: the victors, right after armistice,
made a scramble for German scientists and conscripted them to work in
the U.S., Britain, and Soviet Russia; the Germans during the war
recruited foreign labor from their occupied territories, just as West
Germany now has recruited nearly 3,000,000 foreign workers (Gast
Arbeiter). The Nazi use of foreign labor during the war was perfectly
legitimate. The U.S. hired Mexican labor during the war! In general
the Germans treated their foreign labor essentially like their own
workers, as best as wartime conditions permitted.

ATROCITY BALANCE SHEET STRAINS ALLIED SMOTHEROUT STRATEGY
As I said above, the Allies shocked by their own wanton destruction
of Central Europe, decided with war crimes trials and otherwise so as
to harp on and blow up alleged Nazi atrocities that the public would
excuse their own barbarity and say, What if Hitler was right at
Danzig, what if Roosevelt tricked the U.S. into the war by the
backdoor, the Nazis were so bestial that this was justified! This
has been Allied strategy. And still is. That was the purpose of the
Nuremberg Trials, of the Eichmann trial, of the order to West Germany
to continue the trials against Germans but on pain of everlasting
damnation not ever to try Allied war criminals nor ever to use as a
defense that the Allies did likewise, or worse!
This became obviously difficult to carry off as more and more
evidence indicated that the Allied war crimes and atrocities were ten
times more numerous and more bestial than any alleged against the
Nazis (e.g., rape). As a consequence they resorted to speculation and
to fabrication.


For further information on the subject of Allied War Crimes consult,
among others, Veale's War Crimes Discreetly Veiled and Advance to
Barbarism, and Victor Gollanczs In Darkest Germany.







Article 13319 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
In-Reply-To: wmmichael@aol.com's message of 2 Jul 1994 18:15:02 -0400
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
>SLAVE-LABORING PRISONERS OF WAR: the victors slave-labored some
>2,000,000 German POW's, a majority unto death; the Germans none. [In
>the book Other Losses it is proven conclusively that, in addition to
>these, Eisenhower deliberately starved to death another one million
>German Prisoners of War during and after the War, men and women, Ed.]

Bacques' "Other Losses" has been discredited over and over again.

That's why it didn't cause any stink when it was published fairly
recently (1989.) I am sure the Nazis on these lists would like to spin
fantastic tales of conspiracies but the truth is much more boring: Mr
Bacques was just wrong, it's all a big embarrassment.

Much of its "proof" relies upon a simple error of arithmetic Mr
Bacque made. Ooops.

Even common sense would lead someone to wonder why in 45 years no one
else ever publicized these million deaths Mr Bacque claims. Surely
there had to be thousands of French and American servicemen involved
as eyewitnesses. Not one of their consciences bothered them? Not one
of them thought they could grab a little fame and make a fast buck
with this expose'?

As I said, the explanation is much simpler, Bacques blew it. That's
why other than these raving Nazis the book has all but sunk into
obscurity after its initial foofraw.

>EXPULSION OF NATIVE POPULATIONS: the victors drove out 15,000,000;
>the Germans, a few thousand, and not by expulsion, but by exchange.

The numbers are debatable but it does seem like replacing "15,000,000"
with "millions" and the story is roughly accurate.

But note that the victors he refers to here is the USSR. Interesting
little sin of omission.

>[2,500,000 Germans were killed during these expulsions]

I'd love to see a source for that. I am sure it's just a lie. How did
2.5 million people die from "expulsions", ie, being relocated?

What this is all about is that a lot of Hitler's early claims in the
war revolved around areas in Eastern Europe which were largely German,
ethnically, but not within Germany's borders. Hitler claimed his goal
was to re-unite these areas into a Greater Germany.

Such nationalistic talk is quite common, even today, and certainly not
limited to Germany. If you go through Budapest today, for example, you
will see T-shirts and similar with a map of Hungary and a kind of
larger dotted-line area around it which represents a "Greater
Hungary", an area largely populated by ethnic Hungarians. Americans
don't run into this kind of thing a lot but it's common in Europe and
elsewhere.

The Soviets obviously came up with this idea; drive the German
populations into "Lesser Germany" and be done with this issue. It was
no doubt cruel and crude, few of us have ever accused the Soviets of
great humanity. After 10+M deaths themselves no doubt the Soviets were
not in a mood to be understanding.

I don't know where it became 2.5M deaths though, I've seen the
revisionists here mention this (e.g. Vicksell) but I've never seen
such a fantastic claim of death before.

>COLD-BLOODED MURDER OF POW OFFICERS: the victors (the Soviet
>Russians) murdered 15,000 Polish officers at Katyn and elsewhere, not
>as reprisals but cold-bloodedly, and then at the Nuremberg Trials
>attributing these murders to the Nazis; the Germans, none.

Um, excuse me?

First off I assume you are referring to the 1939 incident in Katyn
Forest where Soviet Secret Police apparently murdered 5,000 Polish
officers who were being held prisoner of war.

As to the Nuremberg trials, well, hey whatever you say pal...

But the Germans none?!?!?!

1939

"On September 6, in the fields outside the Polish village of Mrocza,
the Germans shot nineteen Polish officers who had already
surrendered...Other Polish prisoners-of-war were locked into a
railwayman's hut which was then set on fire. They were burned to
death." pp 6


"On November 8, in the resort spa of Ciechocinek, a group of fifty
Polish officers, now prisoners-of-war, had been led through the
streets of the town with their hands above their heads. All were
subsequently shot." pp 27

June 7-9 1944, Germans kill almost 100 Canadian POW's. pp 535

"On August 24 [1944]...As a retaliation [for an Allied bombing], the
camp Commandant, SS Major Pfister, order [sic] the execution two weeks
later of sixteen British and French officers...Eleven days after the
first executions, another twelve were hanged." pp 578

		Source: "The Second World War", Martin Gilbert

etc.

>CONCENTRATION CAMPS: the victors had at least 10 times more
>concentration camps, and mostly bestially inhuman ones (Soviet
>Russia), even the Rooseveltian U.S. had ten for Nisei and Issei,
>ostensibly for potentially dangerous persons; the Germans also had
>such concentration camps, not a fourth as many or as brutal as the
>victors had and they were not death camps as alleged, but work camps,
>including Dachau and Auschwitz. Concentration camps are not more
>intrinsically evil than jails and prisons.

Ah, the holocaust denial line...

Well, hey, if they're not so bad then what's your problem with the
"victors" having 10 times more of them? Seems like you're tripping
over your own bullshit here, in half the sentence appealing to most
people's knowledge about concentration camps and then in the other
half telling them that everything they know is wrong...

>ATROCITY BALANCE SHEET STRAINS ALLIED SMOTHEROUT STRATEGY
>As I said above, the Allies shocked by their own wanton destruction
>of Central Europe, decided with war crimes trials and otherwise so as
>to harp on and blow up alleged Nazi atrocities that the public would
>excuse their own barbarity and say,

Huh? What public? Whose public? What are you babbling about.

It's amazing what some people can do when left alone with a
keyboard...

I have no doubt that shameful things occurred during the war.

I also assure you that every American, French, British and Russian boy
would have been much happier to have just stayed home. Mr Hitler and
his Nazis, unfortunately, fixed things otherwise. End of story.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13336 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Date: 03 Jul 1994 11:10:50 GMT
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In article <2v4ot6$7ru@search01.news.aol.com> wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael) writes:

   Mr. Flygare asked Mr. Berg in the Subject heading Re: The consistency
   of the denier mind (was re: Bacque) which I have reposted under this
   heading:

[Long diatribe deleted]

I did not, repeat did not, ask what you attribute to me.
I would appreciate if you got your attributions correct in the future.

--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
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DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 13373 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Date: 3 Jul 1994 14:57:01 -0400
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In response to Message-ID:  by
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)

Mr. Shein:

I don't have time to do more than monitor the alt.revisionist group
and occasionally throw in something for argument.  As we already,
supposedly, know allied point of view, and that of the received
versions of the *holocaust* for the sake of argument and
clarification I believe that the revisionist positions offer a good
departure point for learning more about *actual* events rather than
mere speculative ones. 

Dr. App was a reputable Catholic scholar and College Professor of
English.  He did a good bit of research into the various questions,
and I regard his points as valid from my own.  In fact, when I lived
in the mid-West I met Fr. Bernard Strasser, who was the brother of
Gregor and Otto Strasser.  He was a Benedictine Father and had
umpteen degrees and was particularly interested in the holocaust. 
He originally gave me some works by Dr. App as extremely reliable -
as he knew Dr. App personally.

Fr. Bernard left Germany in 1936 and came to America following the
death of his brother in the Night of Long Knives - which he
attributed to others than Hitler.  He was here during the war and
stated that he used to give talks at local colleges concerning the
fact that Roosevelt was the biggest liar in history.  He stated that
he became particularly concerned about the Nuremburg Trials and the
falsification of history regarding the national socialist period,
especially about the holocaust.  A very knowledgeable man, he used
his contacts here and abroad to conduct his own inquiries into the
supposed holocaust of Jews and stated that he simply did not
believe it on the basis of the evidence presented in its favor.  A
WWI artillery officer himself, Fr. Bernard was quite a fighter for
the Faith and historical truth.  He died in 1978.  God rest his soul.

At any rate, all of my experience is that Dr. App is trustworthy.  We
know on the other side that the received history of the holocaust
is not - and this is why the revisionists are important, whether we
agree with them or not - because they are burnishing the history of
the period and removing the accretions and falsehood.

When I was in elementary and secondary school the story on the
holocaust was quite different than today.  Every concentration camp
in Germany was founded as a death camp.  Extermination of
undesirables began in the late 1930s and reached optimum capacity
circa 1942.  Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, etc. all had gas chambers, and we
were shown the *authentic* pictures of them to prove it, along with
the piles of bodies being pushed into mass graves - as well as the
skeletal prisoners. We were assured that Hitler himself had ordered
the extermination of the Jews, and that the vast libraries of Nazi
documents showed that fact.  

Well.  Now all of the above is disavowed, even by Jewish groups. 
This is why it does not bother me to see the holocaust questioned. 
If so much, which was *proved* during the Nuremburg Trials, is now
admitted as false, then how much more.  Let us find out.  Sure some
revisionists may have their pet lies, distortions, and plain
constructs - but - this does not make them unworthy of examination,
as it is only from this examination that truth can be ascertained. 
We already know, from the above, that much that has been received is
false.  The question, then, is how much more.

Historical Revisionism is an ongoing process.  Lincoln is still being
revised, as is Washington, Jefferson, etc.  Let us not allow our own
prejudices, or even those of others, to blind us to the pursuit of
truth - even if it hurts.


>> Bacques' "Other Losses" has been discredited over and over
again.<<

Some have stated that Bacque has been refuted.  I have seen nothing
to believe this.  When the Senior Military Historian of the U.S. Army
helps with the book, writes the forward, and thereby verifies the
research contained therein - another person calling Bacque and he a
liar simply does not cut it.  Lets hear how such a person could have
been duped, and how he, an official historian, could have missed all
the so-called errors.

>> Even common sense would lead someone to wonder why in 45 years no
one else ever publicized these million deaths Mr. Bacque claims.<<

Because so many of the archives are just now opening up, or have
opened up fairly recently.  Many are still sealed.  Also, as one part
of the received history is proven wrong this brings into question
other parts or portions, and so it is a step process - sort of
similar to the domino theory.

>> But note that the victors he refers to here is the USSR.
Interesting little sin of omission.<<

How is this a sin of omission.  It was the USSR which caused the
expulsions from German territories in the East - although it was
aided and abetted by the Western Allies.

>> I'd love to see a source for that. I am sure it's just a lie. How
did 2.5 million people die from "expulsions", i.e., being
relocated?<<

There are a number of books which go into this matter.  Titles at the
moment escape me, as it has been many years since my interest led me
in this direction, but I am sure that other posters can supply some.

>> If you go through Budapest today, for example, you will see
T-shirts and similar with a map of Hungary and a kind of larger
dotted-line area around it which represents a "Greater Hungary", an
area largely populated by ethnic Hungarians.<<

Poland issued post cards, etc. which were quasi-official showing
Poland conquering Germany and with the new borders at Berlin prior to
the war.

>> The Soviets obviously came up with this idea; drive the German
populations into "Lesser Germany" and be done with this issue. It was
no doubt cruel and crude, few of us have ever accused the Soviets of
great humanity. After 10+M deaths themselves no doubt the Soviets
were not in a mood to be understanding.<<

I doubt very much if this was so.  The soviets butchered millions of
their own people in the gulags, in the Ukraine, etc.  What were a few
million more, especially when it expanded the Soviet Union so much. 
One need only read Victor Suvourovs works from the Soviet archives
to realize that it was only due to the German pre-emptive strike in
June 1941 which kept all of Europe from going Communist under the
planned and stock-piled Soviet offensive of the Fall 1941.

>>"On September 6, in the fields outside the Polish village of
Mrocza, the Germans shot nineteen Polish officers who had already
surrendered...Other Polish prisoners-of-war were locked into a
railwayman's hut which was then set on fire. They were burned to
death." pp 6


"On November 8, in the resort spa of Ciechocinek, a group of fifty
Polish officers, now prisoners-of-war, had been led through the
streets of the town with their hands above their heads. All were
subsequently shot." pp 27

June 7-9 1944, Germans kill almost 100 Canadian POW's. pp 535

"On August 24 [1944]...As a retaliation [for an Allied bombing], the
camp Commandant, SS Major Pfister, order [sic] the execution two
weeks later of sixteen British and French officers...Eleven days
after the first executions, another twelve were hanged." pp 578

		Source: "The Second World War", Martin Gilbert etc.<<

The above, if they actually occurred, while reprehensible, were not
official policy.  The Soviet execution at Katyn was, as has been
carried out wherever Soviet forces and their allies have gained
control. So it is quite a different thing from an individual act of
murder to a governmental policy.

>CONCENTRATION CAMPS: the victors had at least 10 times more
>concentration camps, and mostly bestially inhuman ones (Soviet
>Russia), even the Rooseveltian U.S. had ten for Nisei and Issei,
>ostensibly for potentially dangerous persons; the Germans also had
>such concentration camps, not a fourth as many or as brutal as the
>victors had and they were not death camps as alleged, but work
camps,
>including Dachau and Auschwitz. Concentration camps are not more
>intrinsically evil than jails and prisons.

>>Ah, the holocaust denial line...

Well, hey, if they're not so bad then what's your problem with the
"victors" having 10 times more of them? Seems like you're tripping
over your own bullshit here, in half the sentence appealing to most
people's knowledge about concentration camps and then in the other
half telling them that everything they know is wrong...<<

First, MISTER Shein, this is a quote from a reputable professor and
so is hardly *bullshit* - and your opprobrium does not become you. 
Also, this does not, per se, have anything to do with the holocaust. 
It merely states that the camps were utilized much more by the allies
than by axis forces, and that they are merely prison camps.  Note
above where I stated that while we were taught in school that Dachau,
etc. were extermination camps now they are not so listed.  They were
prison camps.  Will Auschwitz eventually be so numbered also by
official historians.  I believe that it is probable, unless far
better quality information can be delivered to uphold official
history than what I have seen here and elsewhere.  To uphold it there
needs to be more than argument, and eye witness accounts, etc. 
There need to be hard evidence, documentary evidence which does not
rely on mistranslations, etc.

Example:  A friend came back from Dachau with one of its official
books he had purchased.  I pointed out a number of errors to him
simply in deliberate mistranslations in the text.  One which I
recall, was that (in the English) All Jews will report to the local
police station by x hours on x date or they will be shot.  The
German, and I admit I read and speak it poorly, stated simply Jews
are to report to the police station.  Pictures of gassed victims had
military uniforms on, etc.  This is NOT proof, and only hurts those
trying to uphold the validity of the holocaust, likewise your ad
hominem arguments.  Neither do they help the revisionists.

>> Huh? What public? Whose public? What are you babbling about.
It's amazing what some people can do when left alone with a
keyboard...
I have no doubt that shameful things occurred during the war.
I also assure you that every American, French, British and Russian
boy would have been much happier to have just stayed home. Mr. Hitler
and his Nazis, unfortunately, fixed things otherwise. End of story.<<

Ad hominems again when I am quoting others without comment mister
Shein?

What public is obvious, the American, French and British public who
really didnt want involved in the war at all, but who had to be
stirred into a white hot hatred of Germany to be able to mount the
massive so-called crusade against evil and sustain it for the 4
years in the US and 6 years for Britain and France.  Russia already
had its own war planned, and their boys had no say in the system
anyway.

You SAY you have no doubt that many shameful things occurred during
the war.  Bringing them out into the open IS historic revisionism. 
That they may hurt our image as democracies, purveyors of the truth,
righteous and holy, etc. is undeniable.  But lets keep the arguments
on the facts, and away from ad hominems and specious official
history.



Article 13389 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
In-Reply-To: wmmichael@aol.com's message of 3 Jul 1994 14:57:01 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 23:07:40 GMT
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
>Mr. Shein:

That's my father...

>I don't have time to do more than monitor the alt.revisionist group

That's already clear, obviously both monitoring the group AND learning
something about what you only babble is beyond your abilities. So
you've chosen to only do the first.

>I believe that the revisionist positions offer a good
>departure point for learning more about *actual* events rather than
>mere speculative ones. 

You certainly may believe whatever you choose.

But do not be surprised if people consider you a drooling moron for
doing so. That is *their* right.

>Dr. App was a reputable Catholic scholar and College Professor of
>English.

Which only shows, yet again, that mental illness has no respect for
credentials.

>He was here during the war and
>stated that he used to give talks at local colleges concerning the
>fact that Roosevelt was the biggest liar in history.

Really? The Biggest!

Gosh, you know, it's so good we have people like yourself around to
set us all straight.

It might have been nice to hear he was a professor of HISTORY, but I
guess we can't have everything.

>A very knowledgeable man,

No doubt! He knows who the BIGGEST LIAR IN HISTORY was. And was also
quite generous apparently in sharing this eye-opening insight of his.

>he used
>his contacts here and abroad to conduct his own inquiries into the
>supposed holocaust of Jews and stated that he simply did not
>believe it on the basis of the evidence presented in its favor.

No doubt he personally interviewed the several million missing Jews in
his hotel room, not to mention the Gypsies, Homosexuals and others.

>At any rate, all of my experience is that Dr. App is trustworthy.

And we all know we need only rely upon your experience...

>We
>know on the other side that the received history of the holocaust
>is not - and this is why the revisionists are important, whether we
>agree with them or not - because they are burnishing the history of
>the period and removing the accretions and falsehood.

As, no doubt, are their fellow seekers; the UFO abductees, those who
know that the moon landings were faked, the tireless researchers into
the truth about Pope Joan, holes in the north pole wherein lie
parallel civilizations to our own...each is no doubt contributing to
our understanding of ourselves, our history, where we have come from
and where we are going.

>When I was in elementary and secondary school the story on the
>holocaust was quite different than today.  Every concentration camp
>in Germany was founded as a death camp.

Indeed. And thousands if not millions of people died at every one of
them. Some by direct means such as gassing and shooting, others by
less direct means, starvation, over-crowding, forced labor, disease,
bizarre and sadistic medical experimentation...

But every one of them excelled at one thing: Leaving nearly all those
who entered them quite dead.

So "death camps" is not so inaccurate.

>Extermination of
>undesirables began in the late 1930s and reached optimum capacity
>circa 1942.  Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, etc. all had gas chambers, and we
>were shown the *authentic* pictures of them to prove it, along with
>the piles of bodies being pushed into mass graves - as well as the
>skeletal prisoners. We were assured that Hitler himself had ordered
>the extermination of the Jews, and that the vast libraries of Nazi
>documents showed that fact.  

Aha! You remember ALL THIS from elementary and secondary school!

So tell us quickly, what's the formula for the determinant of a
polynomial? What is it used for? Who was speaker of the house when you
were in the sixth grade? What is the capital Luxembourg?

Surely they told you all these things in those same years. Certainly
you remember them with the same deadly accuracy that you remember
whether the gas chambers you were shown were at Dachau, Bergen-Belsen,
or perhaps it was Treblinka and Auschwitz and the other names were
just mentioned in the same conversation?

Be careful, we shall take off points for spelling errors!

In fact there were gas chambers found at Dachau. But they probably
were not used for mass extermination, only "experiments". Could these
be the gas chambers you remember? What is the capital of Luxembourg?

>Well.  Now all of the above is disavowed, even by Jewish groups. 

It has?

You mean Hitler *didn't* order the extermination of the Jews?

--------------------
1945

2 April         Hitler dictates his will: ``Eternal gratitude
                will be owed to National Socialism because I
                exterminated the Jews in Germany and Central
                Europe''.
--------------------

Well, I suppose you know better than Hitler himself. Gosh I'm glad
you're here clarifying this for all of us.

>This is why it does not bother me to see the holocaust questioned. 

Oh, is THAT why!

Gee, and for a minute here I was worried it had something to do with
the determinant of a polynomial.

>If so much, which was *proved* during the Nuremburg Trials, is now
>admitted as false, then how much more.

Aha! 

Surely we can extrapolate. Surely if, say, Nuremberg transcripts show
a date or a name wrong then we can safely conclude that the bodies
will disappear and all these millions of missing Jews, Gypsies,
Catholics, etc shall just appear before our eyes! We only need to
click our heels three times and say ``There's no place like home,
There's no place like home...''

>Let us find out.

Let's do.

Thus far your comments have been breathtakingly lacking in any content
or facts.

>Sure some
>revisionists may have their pet lies, distortions, and plain
>constructs - but - this does not make them unworthy of examination,

But any such behavior at Nuremberg disqualifies all of it, am I
getting this right so far?

>as it is only from this examination that truth can be ascertained. 

Indeed, and it has, and it has, and the revisionists were found nearly
wholly lacking (oh I'll admit them a few bits here and there, but
really nothing relevant to the Holocaust, complaints about treatment
of Germans by the Soviets directly after the war perhaps.)

But disproof doesn't seem to stop them from repeating their claims,
does it?

>We already know, from the above, that much that has been received is
>false.

I think all we know is that you *might* have attended elementary and
secondary school. We'll take your word for it.

>The question, then, is how much more.

Indeed, questions, so many questions...

>Historical Revisionism is an ongoing process.  Lincoln is still being
>revised, as is Washington, Jefferson, etc.

They laughed at Einstein! They laughed at Edison! They laughed at
Gumpel! Who's "Gumpel"? I dunno, but they laughed at him.

>Let us not allow our own
>prejudices, or even those of others, to blind us to the pursuit of
>truth - even if it hurts.

Indeed, let us not.

So where's the part where you indicate to us that you know a goddamned
thing you've been babbling on about now, for pages? The suspense is
killing me.

>>> Bacques' "Other Losses" has been discredited over and over
>again.<<
>
>Some have stated that Bacque has been refuted.  I have seen nothing
>to believe this.

Of course not. But might I put forward the possibility that this is
because you have seen nothing much whatsoever?

>When the Senior Military Historian of the U.S. Army
>helps with the book, writes the forward, and thereby verifies the
>research contained therein - another person calling Bacque and he a
>liar simply does not cut it.  Lets hear how such a person could have
>been duped, and how he, an official historian, could have missed all
>the so-called errors.

I quote:

--------------------
Some comments on the work were made by Prof. Stephen Ambrose, director
of the Eisenhower Center at the University of New-Orleans (a thorough
refutation appears in the NYT, Feb. 24, 1991). Ambrose does admit that
there was mistreatment of German POW's in the spring and summer of
1945, but adds:

"When scholars do the necessary research, they will find Mr. Bacque's
work to be worse than worthless. It is seriously - nay, spectacularly -
flawed in its most fundamental aspects". For example, Bacque's 
extrapolation of one million deaths is based on on a typographical error
in a single army medical report. Ambrose wrote "[Bacque] arrived at
his most basic conclusion, a death rate at all camps of 30 percent, by 
dividing the 21,000 deaths by the 70,000 prisoners [listed in the 
report]... all other figures in the document make it clear that that the 
correct number of the prisoners was 700,000. This would make the death 
rate not 30 percent but 3 percent".

--------------------

>>> Even common sense would lead someone to wonder why in 45 years no
>one else ever publicized these million deaths Mr. Bacque claims.<<
>
>Because so many of the archives are just now opening up, or have
>opened up fairly recently.  Many are still sealed.

So you mean no one credible noticed that a million German POW's were
being murdered?

I suppose that leads us to the question as to who was doing this?
Martians? Space rays?

Come now, you can do better than that.

>Also, as one part
>of the received history is proven wrong this brings into question
>other parts or portions, and so it is a step process - sort of
>similar to the domino theory.

Indeed indeed, exactly as your own claims seem to be suffering badly...

>>> But note that the victors he refers to here is the USSR.
>Interesting little sin of omission.<<
>
>How is this a sin of omission. 

I think most people would find it interesting to know that the
"victors" you are attributing such brutal treatment to are the
Soviets.

>It was the USSR which caused the
>expulsions from German territories in the East - although it was
>aided and abetted by the Western Allies.

Oh don't be coy, how so?

Gosh your stuff is remarkably empty of reference or sources.

>>> I'd love to see a source for that. I am sure it's just a lie. How
>did 2.5 million people die from "expulsions", i.e., being
>relocated?<<
>
>There are a number of books which go into this matter.  Titles at the
>moment escape me

Your sense seems to be escaping you.

LOOK YOU MORON, you are accusing people heretofore thought reasonably
innocent of MILLIONS OF DEATHS.

No one else here seems to have ever heard of this particular
accusation. So we asked for a source for this accusation.

AND THE SOURCES ESCAPE YOU AT THE MOMENT?

Gosh, I can see you really are a disciple of the truth and fairness.

He accuses people of committing millions of murders but when asked
what his source is this "escapes" him at the moment.

>as it has been many years since my interest led me
>in this direction, but I am sure that other posters can supply some.

I am sure.

Perhaps they'll supply you with the capital of Luxembourg also.

>>> The Soviets obviously came up with this idea; drive the German
>populations into "Lesser Germany" and be done with this issue. It was
>no doubt cruel and crude, few of us have ever accused the Soviets of
>great humanity. After 10+M deaths themselves no doubt the Soviets
>were not in a mood to be understanding.<<
>
>I doubt very much if this was so.

You doubt very much of WHAT is so?

>The soviets butchered millions of
>their own people in the gulags, in the Ukraine, etc.

Ok, we agree.

>What were a few
>million more, especially when it expanded the Soviet Union so much.

Fascinating insight into the Soviet mind of WWII.

Did you come up with this yourself or do are your sources on the lam
again?

>One need only read Victor Suvourovs works from the Soviet archives
>to realize that it was only due to the German pre-emptive strike in
>June 1941 which kept all of Europe from going Communist under the
>planned and stock-piled Soviet offensive of the Fall 1941.

Hmm, how this backs up the claim that the soviets didn't care about
the millions of their citizens killed in WWII escapes *me*.

Gosh, I love speculative history, apparently you do also...

[various historical examples I lifted from HISTORY books to counter
this fellow's claim that the Nazis never mistreated POW's elided]

>The above, if they actually occurred, while reprehensible, were not
>official policy.

Oh, and what is our source for THIS?

You seem to have dropped some of my quotations, like:

"On September 9 Colonel Eduard Wagner discussed the future of Poland
with Hitler's Army Chief of Staff, General Halder. `It is the Fuhrer's
and Goering's intention', Wagner wrote in his diary, `to destroy and
exterminate the Polish nation. More than that cannot even be hinted at
in writing'" pp 6


I assume your conclusion is that Halder's comments to Wagner
explaining the Fuhrer's and Goering's intentions were not "official
policy".

After all, who are Hitler and Goering to say what was official policy?


>The Soviet execution at Katyn was, as has been
>carried out wherever Soviet forces and their allies have gained
>control. So it is quite a different thing from an individual act of
>murder to a governmental policy.

You seem to have a reading problem, here try these again:

--------------------

"`We are now issuing fierce orders which I have drafted today myself,'
Colonel Wagner wrote in his diary on September 11. `Nothing like the
death sentence! There's no other way in the occupied territories!'"
pp 8

"`I have information', Canaris told Keitel, 'that mass executions are
being planned in Poland, and that members of the Polish nobility and
the Roman Catholic bishops and priests have been singled out for
extermination.'
  Keitel urged Canaris to take the matter no further. `If I were you',
he said, `I would not get mixed up in this business. This ``thing''
has been decided upon by the Fuhrer himself.'" pp 8

--------------------

>First, MISTER Shein, this is a quote from a reputable professor and
>so is hardly *bullshit* 

(chortle!)

(this fellow hasn't spent much time in academia, has he?!)

How come I can't find one reference to this English professor's work
in any of the books I have?

I can't find too many Apps in an on-line search of The Library of
Congress. Is he Austin J App? The one that wrote the book on
German-Americans? Or is he the App who wrote about lawn insects?

>and your opprobrium does not become you. 

Oh I assure you it does.

>It merely states that the camps were utilized much more by the allies
>than by axis forces, and that they are merely prison camps.

oh.

>Note
>above where I stated that while we were taught in school that Dachau,
>etc. were extermination camps now they are not so listed.

So what *is* the determinant of a polynomial anyhow?

And what do they use those things for?

So you mean to say you have evidence that few people died at Dachau?

By all means please present it!

Apparently you know something that Leni Yahil, author of "The
Holocaust -- The Fate of European Jewry", Oxford University Press has
not discovered...pp 537...

"...Estimates have it that 32,000 people died in Dachau, but it is
assumed that this figure is too low, especially as it does not take
into account the executions. About 50 percent of the camp's vicitims
died in 1945. An epidemic of typhus spread through the camp in the
winter of 1944/1945, but this was not the first of its kind; typhoid
and typhus ahd broken out in Dachau back in 1942. At that time, the
severely ill were disposed of by sending them to gas chambers in
Schloss Hartheim; thirty-two such transports were dispatched that
year.
  ...
  In Dachau the experiments were conducted primarily under the
supervision of Dr Rascher, an odd and rather dubious character who was
eventually executed by the Nazis. The best known of his experiments
began in February 1942 at the request of the German air force, which
was interested in clarifying three issues; the body's response under
conditions of low air pressure; preserving body temperature in an
environment lower than normal body levels; and the possibility of
desalinating seawater...
  The first time Himmler witnessed an experiment being performed on
human beings at Dachau, he evidently felt the need for backing from
Hitler and raised the matter before the fuhrer. As might have been
expected, Hitler decided ``In principle, experiments on humans should
be allowed when the matter at hand is the good of the state....It is
unreasonable that anyone in a concentration camp or prison should not
be harmed at all by the war''
  ...
  In Dachau, as in other concentration campls, Russian POWs were
executed. The directive for their execution, issued in July 1941 by
the head of the Gestapo, Heinrich Muller, was based on the ``Commissar
Order'' that read, ``The executions are not in public, they have to be
carried out in the nearest concetration without arousing attention.''
It is estimated that the number of Russians killed in Dachau was
approximately eight hundred...

Death marches of close to 20,000 people left the Dachau complex
between April 24 and 27 (some 15,000 people from Dachau itself.)"

--------------------

Sounds like it was a fun place.

Well, I am sure your own detailed counter-claims are forthcoming.

>Will Auschwitz eventually be so numbered also by
>official historians.

Will we ever find out who *really* killed Kennedy? Breathes there a
man whose heart's so dead that never in his life has said...ooops.

Gosh, we're STILL waiting for you to get to any sources...

>I believe that it is probable, unless far
>better quality information can be delivered to uphold official
>history than what I have seen here and elsewhere.

If we could get a hint as to what you have seen "here and elsewhere"
perhaps we could better understand this brilliant insight you present?

>To uphold it there
>needs to be more than argument, and eye witness accounts, etc.

So what is the "etc"?

And what exactly is your problem with eye-witness accounts?

But more importantly what is the "etc", because gosh that's a really
short list and I think we need to understand just what evidence you
reject.

How about the text of a document written DURING THE WAR by a
high-ranking Nazi officer at Auschwitz, to another Nazi officer?

--------------------
  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000   ^^^^
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.

--------------------

>There need to be hard evidence, documentary evidence which does not
>rely on mistranslations, etc.

You got it.

Next complaint...?

>Example:  A friend came back from Dachau with one of its official
>books he had purchased.  I pointed out a number of errors to him
>simply in deliberate mistranslations in the text.

Oh heavens! Call the tourist police? THEY'RE AT IT AGAIN! Selling
cheap junk to the folks coming out of the tour buses. Disgusting.

But at least we know your sources for this one!

>One which I
>recall, was that (in the English) All Jews will report to the local
>police station by x hours on x date or they will be shot.  The
>German, and I admit I read and speak it poorly,

Well, that wouldn't be any reason to doubt your scholarly abilities
regarding these tourist materials, would it?

>stated simply Jews
>are to report to the police station.

Um, could we have the German for that? And the capital of Luxembourg,
if you're not too busy.

>Pictures of gassed victims had
>military uniforms on, etc.

Shocking!

And what exactly did you conclude from this?

What army's uniforms did they have on?

>This is NOT proof

No, it was a tourist handbook.

>and only hurts those
>trying to uphold the validity of the holocaust,

Ever get one of those postcards showing Paul Revere riding his horse
through Lexington and Concord shouting "The British are coming!"

Probably didn't happen anything like that. Probably wasn't even Paul
Revere.

I suppose this hurts the claims of those trying to uphold the validity
of the American Revolution.

I also have this little ball that when you turn over shows snow
falling on George Washington as he crossed the Delaware River, do you
think it was really snowing that day? I dunno. Perhaps it was. Makes a
good paperweight tho.

>likewise your ad
>hominem arguments.

I think you need to look up the phrase "ad hominem".

Perhaps some tourist guide has a definition for you...oops, we've
already determined they're not reliable.

>Ad hominems again when I am quoting others without comment mister
>Shein?

Quoting vacuous context-less text?

And what was the meaning of "ad hominem" again?

Gosh you like that phrase, perhaps you ought to look it up.

>What public is obvious, the American, French and British public who
>really didnt want involved in the war at all,

Well, it would seem the invasion of France and the blitzkrieg of
England put an end to some of that.

>but who had to be
>stirred into a white hot hatred of Germany

Can't imagine why being invaded and/or bombed could have annoyed them
so...well, you know those Europeans, they love any excuse to be
annoyed...

>Russia already
>had its own war planned, and their boys had no say in the system
>anyway.

Hey, you're the one arguing what "public opinion" was and how
important it was. Now you're shadow-boxing.

>You SAY you have no doubt that many shameful things occurred during
>the war.  Bringing them out into the open IS historic revisionism. 

They're out in the open, and have been for years. Oh, perhaps not
every single thing. But it does seem a bit hard to believe that a 2.5M
Germans were killed after the war, and over a million German POWs, and
no one has thus far noticed.

>But lets keep the arguments
>on the facts,

When you find one do let us know.

>and away from ad hominems

You really need to look that phrase up.

>and specious official
>history.

Specious?!

Well. I suppose that's that. Everything that disagrees with Mr
Sh*t-For-Brains here is "specious official history."

And that's not "ad hominem".

That's a fact, airhead.

Come back when you have something to add. Like what the capital of
Luxembourg is.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Shein shines
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Gee Barry, I havent laughed so hard in years.  You should become a
full time comedian, but dont give up your day job yet.

>> Which only shows, yet again, that mental illness has no respect
for credentials.<<

Sure dont.  Just look at Software Tool & Die.

>> No doubt he personally interviewed the several million missing
Jews in his hotel room, not to mention the Gypsies, Homosexuals and
others.<<

Why dont you just get something universally accepted as a source of
information, say a World Almanac for 1940 look up Population of the
World, Europe, Jews - minding the little asterisk (you do know to
look at the bottom of the page dont you) which notes official
figures supplied by the World Jewish Congress.  Do the same for
1945.  Subtract and then explain how we have more Jews than we
started with.  You do remember after all >> the formula for the
determinant of a polynomial?<< right?, so some simple subtraction
should not be beyond you.

You also seem to have a thing for Luxembourg.  But Im not going to
tell you the capital and spoil your fun at looking it up.  Let me
know when youve found it.

>> Indeed. And thousands if not millions of people died at every one
of them. Some by direct means such as gassing and shooting, others by
less direct means, starvation, over-crowding, forced labor, disease,
bizarre and sadistic medical experimentation...<<

Come now, even Simon Wiesenthal has stated in print that there were
no extermination camps in Gross Deutschland.  So what kind of scheiss
does this leave your expert with - green, blue or yellow?

>> the same deadly accuracy that you remember whether the gas
chambers you were shown were at Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, or perhaps it
was Treblinka and Auschwitz and the other names were just mentioned
in the same conversation?<<

No, on the contrary we got a rather full course of brain washing.  To
the contrary, rather mundane facts such as polynomials, capitals were
not adjudged nearly as important as it shall never happen again. So
we became quite proficient at naming camps.  In fact, we knew the
location of the camps far better than the capital of Germany?  You do
remember what that was do you not?  Otherwise it shall be back to
elementary school for you.


>>1945

2 April         Hitler dictates his will: ``Eternal gratitude
                will be owed to National Socialism because I
                exterminated the Jews in Germany and Central
                Europe''.<<

No, it has not.  No document has ever been found linking Hitler with
the so-called holocaust.  In fact in 1942 Hitler ordered that all
consideration of the Jewish question was to be postponed until after
the war.  Irving has the reference - perhaps you might gain something
from reading his Hitlers War, and Churchills War.  

For example: pg 327 - Hitler's surviving adjutants, secretaries, and
staff stenographers have all uniformly testified that never once was
the extermination of either the Russian or European Jews mentioned -
even confidentially - at Hitler's headquarters.

Of course, I am sure that you also do not like Irving.  And that he
has also been adequately refuted by your sterling brilliance.

>> I quote: [quotes from Prof. Ambrose]<<

I suppose I might point out that you proved my point - no one has, so
far as I am aware (you see Im not omniscient as herr shein -
although he does have a problem understanding ad hominem arguments -
but what the heck, where would I be without a good laugh, right!) how
the Senior Military Historian of the US Army was duped, couldnt read
the statistics, was incompetent - or even *gasp!* honest.

Personally I would take the word of the Armys Senior Historian over
Prof. Ambrose - I know that hurts Barry, but thats just the way it
is.


>> So you mean no one credible noticed that a million German POW's
were being murdered?<<

Remarkable isnt it!  No one noticed six million getting murdered, or
so everyone from the Pope down to the little Kraut living next door -
so what the heck is a mere million getting overlooked?

>> LOOK YOU MORON, you are accusing people heretofore thought
reasonably innocent of MILLIONS OF DEATHS.<<

Excuse me, Mr. Shein.  Are you talking to yourself again.  Where are
these proofs that hard working, Christian, church going Germans whom
all the world admired for their honesty, order, punctuality and
ethics suddenly went stark raving bonkers and first murdered all
those poor Jews in Dachau, no Bergen-Belsen, no Mauthausen, no
Theresienstadt, no wait a minute it was *really* at Auschwitz. 
Really?  Please see your shrink immediately before you harm yourself.

>>"On September 9 Colonel Eduard Wagner discussed the future of
Poland with Hitler's Army Chief of Staff, General Halder. `It is the
Fuhrer's and Goering's intention', Wagner wrote in his diary, `to
destroy and exterminate the Polish nation. More than that cannot even
be hinted at in writing'" pp 6<<

Mr. Shein, it would really be nice if you learned more German than I
remember.  America was committed to the extermination of Germany and
Japan.  They are still there - or do you have a different map than I
do?  Lets lay off the false semantics.  Either translate faithfully
or give it up.


>>"`I have information', Canaris told Keitel, 'that mass executions
are being planned in Poland, and that members of the Polish nobility
and the Roman Catholic bishops and priests have been singled out for
extermination.'
  Keitel urged Canaris to take the matter no further. `If I were
you', he said, `I would not get mixed up in this business. This
``thing'' has been decided upon by the Fuhrer himself.'" pp 8<<

Now that is a stupid fabrication.  Hitler would never have permitted
it as he also was Catholic, remained Catholic, and paid his Church
tax until his death.  I as a German Catholic ask only what is
permitted to Polish Catholics. To be anti-Semitic is not to be
anti-Catholic.

Heres more:

	[Hitler] was piously proud to have defeated Belgium without
defiling Brussels, and France without attacking Paris * his enemies,
it was noted, had just bombed the Rouen cathedral and attacked, quite
pointlessly, the famous monastery at Monte Cassino.
	In fact Hitler had reiterated that Rome's status as an open
city must be strictly preserved Therefore, Wehrmacht troops had
been forbidden to set foot there without special passes, and even
during the fiercest fighting at Anzio all military transports had
been tediously diverted around the outskirts of Rome.
	The forbearance brought no Allied response. When Kesselring
formally suggested to the enemy, through the Vatican, on June 3, that
both sides continue to respect the open city, they made no reply
but instead appealed to the city's populace to join the battle. Sir
Henry Wilson, the Supreme Allied Commander in the Mediterranean,
broadcast the falsehood that the Germans were defending Rome, and the
British and American tanks speedily penetrated to its very heart the
next day. To impede further pursuit of his withdrawing army, Hitler
should now have blown up the bridges, but he did not. Late the next
evening, June 5, Roosevelt broadcast news of the victory. He
attributed to the skill of his generals the fact that Rome had
escaped damage.(Hitler's War, David Irving, p. 634)

>> They're out in the open, and have been for years. Oh, perhaps not
every single thing. But it does seem a bit hard to believe that a
2.5M Germans were killed after the war, and over a million German
POWs, and no one has thus far noticed.<<

Are we back to the six million that no one noticed?  Stupid question.
 When out of 300,000 troops at Stalingrad only 6,000 come back,
massive deaths from allied bombing raids, mails and sanitation
systems out, massive deaths and expulsions in the East, what is a
million more in the inferno Germany was in 1945 herr Shein?  Of
course they were missed.  And the survivors remarked upon it in
German periodicals.  But, like the holocaust it was verboten to
discuss.  After all, one might not get denazified if one raised
embarrassing questions.  

>> I can't find too many Apps in an on-line search of The Library of
Congress. Is he Austin J App? The one that wrote the book on
German-Americans? Or is he the App who wrote about lawn insects?<<

Well, I can see you dont read the references.  I stated The
following is from Dr. Austin App's Straight Look At The Third Reich
(pp. 45-47). Perhaps that brilliant perceptive mind cant make the
jump to the J. as in Austin J. App.  Lay off the prozac for awhile
and maybe the synapses will heal.

Funny thing considering your eminent credentials and brilliant mind.
Where did you say your listing was?

>> Well. I suppose that's that. Everything that disagrees with Mr
Sh*t-For-Brains here is "specious official history."
And that's not "ad hominem".
That's a fact, airhead.<<

Talking to ourselves again, or is it one of those drug induced
attacks of acute hostility?  Well, mustnt kick a man when hes down.
 Too bad, though Mr. Shein, you could have been sooooo brilliant if
only youd have stayed off the drugs. 

Do give your psychoanalyst my best.  And thanks for the laughs.




Article 13409 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Diesels and science
Date: 4 Jul 1994 01:59:01 -0400
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One gentleman stated the following:

>>Again, the short form is this: we have eyewitness testimony that
the Germans pushed lots of people into a very small and reasonably
airtight chamber and pumped in exhaust.  Half an hour later, they
were taken out dead - well, mostly;  from time to time some were
still alive and had to be shot.  Berg doesn't include this bit in his
discussion.  An oversight?

>>    The fact that gasoline exhaust kills via CO is well-known.  Not
so  well-known is the fact that diesels do not have the same exhaust
composition as gas engines.  If one doesn't know this, one naively 
assumes that it would be the same.  We don't know whose idea it was
to  use a diesel.  Was that person a diesel engineer?

>>    This is what I *think* happened.  Someone had the bright idea
to use  an otherwise useless captured Russian tank engine.  (They had
thousands  lying around.)  They performed the procedure as described.
 It worked.   No further questions were asked.  "Everybody knows"
that they *must* have died of CO poisoning.  I'm sure even the
Germans assumed that.  Why would they do an autopsy?

>>    What *really* happened (I theorize) was that they asphyxiated. 
CO and CO2 are synergistic, something Berg ignored in his paper. He
says they could not have died from CO, and I think he's right -
whether or not they could have adjusted the CO, *I don't think they
needed to*!  He also says they could not have died from the CO2 in
the exhaust.  Possibly right again.

>>    But he doesn't figure in the synergism, nor does he do any
computations on the victims' own oxygen consumption and CO2
production.  Oops.  Nor does he consider the victims' generally weak
condition (remember that the ones gassed immediately were the very
young and the very old or sick considered unfit for work) and poor
diet - anemia would hasten death from lack of oxygen.  Oops again. 
Oversight?  Possibly; these points *are* rather difficult to see if
one doesn't have at least a smattering of scientific and medical
knowledge, or really bother to do the hard work of looking
*everything* up and taking *nothing* for granted.  <<

My questions:

1.  What is the evidence of the autopsies?  Anyone have references
for this?

2.  Is there indeed a synergism for CO and CO2 which would come into
play along with oxygen depletion from breathing?

3. Where did the incident supposedly occur regarding the Germans
pushing the Jews into small rooms and "gassing them."



Article 13412 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Shein shines
In-Reply-To: wmmichael@aol.com's message of 4 Jul 1994 00:48:02 -0400
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael) [trying to respond to me]
>>> Indeed. And thousands if not millions of people died at every one
>of them. Some by direct means such as gassing and shooting, others by
>less direct means, starvation, over-crowding, forced labor, disease,
>bizarre and sadistic medical experimentation...<<
>
>Come now, even Simon Wiesenthal has stated in print that there were
>no extermination camps in Gross Deutschland.  So what kind of scheiss
>does this leave your expert with - green, blue or yellow?


You seem to have "extermination camp" confused with camps where a lot
of cruel things happened and a lot of people died, cruelly.

The term "extermination camp" generally refers to those specific camps
where thousands per day were killed in gas chambers or similar. It
took a whole other level of effort to kill several million people in a
few years. Thus the distinction.

But to stretch "Dachau was not an extermination camp" into "no one
died [cruelly] at Dachau" is completely ridiculous.

What do you think Dachau was, a day care center?

I've already handed you the litany of what went on at Dachau, did you
just not read it? Or do you like your own little fantasy of "well, it
wasn't an *extermination* camp" so much you just had to cling to it?

Tell us what went on at Dachau. Tell us how (probably much more than)
30,000 people died at that one camp. Now, how many similar camps were
located in "Gross Deutschland"?

It is typical of revisionists to try to play word games like this.

It wasn't an *extermination* camp, so let's play as if it was just a
nice place and use that one distinction to deny anything that happened
there.

>No, on the contrary we got a rather full course of brain washing.  To
>the contrary, rather mundane facts such as polynomials, capitals were
>not adjudged nearly as important as it shall never happen again. So
>we became quite proficient at naming camps.  In fact, we knew the
>location of the camps far better than the capital of Germany?  You do
>remember what that was do you not?  Otherwise it shall be back to
>elementary school for you.

Yes yes yes, do you have anything more interesting to add than what
your grade school teachers told you? Have you found anything else they
told you to be less than completely true?

I mean, what's your point? That you are presenting what you remember
of what you were taught in grade school as "scholarly evidence"? That
because perhaps your teacher confused Dachau and Auschwitz that
therefore no one died? That seems to be your point.

>>>1945
>
>2 April         Hitler dictates his will: ``Eternal gratitude
>                will be owed to National Socialism because I
>                exterminated the Jews in Germany and Central
>                Europe''.<<
>
>No, it has not.  No document has ever been found linking Hitler with
>the so-called holocaust.

Wait a minute, you mean when presented with evidence you simply deny
it because it is contrary to the dogma you want to believe???

Perhaps you should go back to grade school. Obviously no one will get
very far presenting you with evidence. But here's some more, all memos
and other documents written between Nazi officers during their regular
course of duty, during the war:

--------------------
"Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three
vans, without any faults occuring in the vehicles."

	Dr August Becker on 5 June 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff

"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

Einsatzgruppe C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941

During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

	Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
	on 16 September 1942

--------------------

>Irving has the reference - perhaps you might gain something
>from reading his Hitlers War, and Churchills War.  

Oh gack, David Irving...Lord Haw-Haw incarnate ("Lord Haw-Haw",
William Joyce, was a Brit in Berlin who broadcast Nazi propaganda to
the British troops during the war, he was finally hanged.)

Well, since you like David "I'm only sort of a Nazi" Irving so much
perhaps you will like this:

--------------------
        LONDON (UPI) -- After reading the purported memoirs of Nazi war
criminal Adolf Eichmann, British historian David Irving says he is
reconsidering his widely disputed belief that the Holocaust happened
without Adolf Hitler's knowledge.
        Irving was quoted Sunday in various British media as saying he was
now doubtful of his long-held position that Hitler did not order the
Holocaust.
        He also has contended that the figure of 6 million Jews exterminated
by the Nazis was a ``Zionist exaggeration'' aimed at securing
reparations for Jewish people after World War II.
        In November he obtained the memoirs, said to be those of Eichmann
during the 1950s when he was on the run.
        ``The fuhrer has ordered the physical destruction of the Jews,''
Eichmann is said to have written in the papers.
        ``Quite clearly this has given me a certain amount of food for
thought and I will spend much of this year thinking about it,'' Irving
said in an interview published Sunday in The Sunday Telegraph. ``They
show that Eichmann believed there was a fuhrer order.''
        At the end of the war Eichmann escaped from a U.S. prison camp and
surfaced in Argentina in 1958. Two years later Israeli agents kidnapped
him and he was put on trial in Tel Aviv and executed.
        Irving said he was given Eichmann's memoirs in two large brown paper
packages last November, free of charge by a man in Buenos Aires who had
been entrusted with them by Eichmann.
        ``I'm 95 percent certain that they're original,'' said Irving, who
would not name the man who handed him the memoirs.

--------------------=

Gee, knocks down your view of David Irving *AND* your dogma that
Hitler knew nothing about the Holocaust, and from Irving! All in one
fell swoop...Next?!

>For example: pg 327 - Hitler's surviving adjutants, secretaries, and
>staff stenographers have all uniformly testified that never once was
>the extermination of either the Russian or European Jews mentioned -
>even confidentially - at Hitler's headquarters.

Well, since we have just determined that Irving himself has recanted
these claims perhaps you'll get your head out of your ass.

>Of course, I am sure that you also do not like Irving.  And that he
>has also been adequately refuted by your sterling brilliance.

As we have just seen, Irving refutes Irving.

Are you having fun yet? I am!

>>> I quote: [quotes from Prof. Ambrose]<<
>
>I suppose I might point out that you proved my point - no one has, so
>far as I am aware (you see Im not omniscient as herr shein -
>although he does have a problem understanding ad hominem arguments -
>but what the heck, where would I be without a good laugh, right!) how
>the Senior Military Historian of the US Army was duped, couldnt read
>the statistics, was incompetent - or even *gasp!* honest.

I don't have to explain, it happened. What needs explaining?

You seem to like your little suppositions far more than facts.

>Personally I would take the word of the Armys Senior Historian over
>Prof. Ambrose - I know that hurts Barry, but thats just the way it
>is.

You can do what you like, you can smear yourself with excrement and
run down Main Street naked for all I care. But don't expect people to
think much of you.

>>> So you mean no one credible noticed that a million German POW's
>were being murdered?<<
>
>Remarkable isnt it!  No one noticed six million getting murdered,

Wait a minute. You are a liar.

We have the testimonies of many, many Nazi camp guards and others
involved.

What do you mean no one noticed?

Even people who lived nearby casually testified that they could smell
the stink of death.

What are you talking about?

>or
>so everyone from the Pope down to the little Kraut living next door -
>so what the heck is a mere million getting overlooked?

So where are your camp guards? Someone had to be present if a million
German POWs were killed. Someone had to do it. Where are these people?

We've had no great problem finding people who worked in the Nazi death
camps, getting their testimonies and statements, etc.

If Bacque believes ONE MILLION German POWs were killed by the
Americans and French where are the witnesses?

I'll tell you where they are. They don't exist. Why don't they exist?
Because it NEVER HAPPENED.

Besides, since you so blithely deny the Holocaust and the murder of
over 10M people why do you expect anyone to be interested in your
"holocaust"?

Or do you think you can serve the truth by murdering it?

>>> LOOK YOU MORON, you are accusing people heretofore thought
>reasonably innocent of MILLIONS OF DEATHS.<<
>
>Excuse me, Mr. Shein.

No, there is no excuse for you...

You claimed 2.5M people died during the relocation of Germans after the
war.

I asked you for sources.

You said:

	There are a number of books which go into this matter.  Titles at the
	moment escape me

So where are your sources? You've accused someone of killing OVER TWO
MILLION PEOPLE!

Where the hell are your sources, you lying little scumbag?

You can't just accuse people of MILLIONS of murders and walk away from
it.

What the hell do you think, justice, bearing false witness, is just
for other people?

Where the hell are your SOURCES?

>Where are
>these proofs that hard working, Christian, church going Germans whom
>all the world admired for their honesty, order, punctuality and
>ethics suddenly went stark raving bonkers and first murdered all
>those poor Jews in Dachau, no Bergen-Belsen, no Mauthausen, no
>Theresienstadt, no wait a minute it was *really* at Auschwitz. 

There are quite literally tons of evidence. You have been presented
right here with evidence. Sources are abundant, are you too stupid to
walk into a bookstore or library? Can you not find any books on the
Holocaust?

That you choose for some reason not to believe a word of it is your
problem. But don't you claim that no one has presented you with any
evidence!

Liar.

Now where are your SOURCES for the claim that 2.5M Germans died in
relocations after the war?

>>>"On September 9 Colonel Eduard Wagner discussed the future of
>Poland with Hitler's Army Chief of Staff, General Halder. `It is the
>Fuhrer's and Goering's intention', Wagner wrote in his diary, `to
>destroy and exterminate the Polish nation. More than that cannot even
>be hinted at in writing'" pp 6<<
>
>Mr. Shein, it would really be nice if you learned more German than I
>remember.  America was committed to the extermination of Germany and
>Japan.

Have you lost your mind? What in the world has that comment got to do
with the quote indicating what the Nazis were up to in Poland?

You were the one who claimed that NOT ONE officer/POW was killed by
Nazis. I presented you with evidence that that is wrong. The above
paragraph, along with the others, shows that it was by intent and
official policy.

You claimed it was not official policy, remember?

I think we've put that claim to rest (is there anything left? I can
still see your lips moving...why?)

>>>"`I have information', Canaris told Keitel, 'that mass executions
>are being planned in Poland, and that members of the Polish nobility
>and the Roman Catholic bishops and priests have been singled out for
>extermination.'
>  Keitel urged Canaris to take the matter no further. `If I were
>you', he said, `I would not get mixed up in this business. This
>``thing'' has been decided upon by the Fuhrer himself.'" pp 8<<
>
>Now that is a stupid fabrication.

Presented with the evidence a revisionist makes his last noise:

			Forgeries, all forgeries!

We have heard this all before.

>Hitler would never have permitted
>it as he also was Catholic, remained Catholic, and paid his Church
>tax until his death.  I as a German Catholic ask only what is
>permitted to Polish Catholics. To be anti-Semitic is not to be
>anti-Catholic.

So what next? You shall conclude that Hitler did not commit suicide
because that too is forbidden to Catholics?

Hasn't it occurred to you that Hitler was not screwed together very
well?

He also believed there was a hole in the earth where a parallel
civilization lived. If that is also part of the Catholic Catechism I
seem to have missed it.

	"In one Church diocese in western Poland, two-thirds of the 690
	priests had been arrested, of whom 214 had been shot", pp 14, "The
	Second World War", Martin Gilbert.

>Are we back to the six million that no one noticed?

This requires no comment.

>And the survivors remarked upon it in
>German periodicals.  But, like the holocaust it was verboten to
>discuss.  After all, one might not get denazified if one raised
>embarrassing questions.  

And we can just assume you just don't have a copy of any of these
"periodicals" handy? Or a reference. Was it in grade school they told
you of this also?

So where are the American and French guards and soldiers who killed
these million+ POWs after the war? You mean to tell us that not one of
them thought to tell their story? Not one old man no longer afraid of
death or perhaps notes given to a child to be made available after
their death? No one.

Only Bacque knows this went on? And he doesn't claim to be an
eyewitness, he merely claims to have deduced this from some statistics
(statistics which have been shown to contain a simple typo, a simple
matter of a missing zero, which is why Bacque's 1989 book is now only
of interest to holocaust deniers.)

>>> I can't find too many Apps in an on-line search of The Library of
>Congress. Is he Austin J App? The one that wrote the book on
>German-Americans? Or is he the App who wrote about lawn insects?<<
>
>Well, I can see you dont read the references.  I stated The
>following is from Dr. Austin App's Straight Look At The Third Reich
>(pp. 45-47).

So why isn't this authoritative tome registered with the Library of
Congress?

Ah well, another one down.

Next contestant?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13415 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Diesels and science
In-Reply-To: wmmichael@aol.com's message of 4 Jul 1994 01:59:01 -0400
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
>My questions:
>
>1.  What is the evidence of the autopsies?  Anyone have references
>for this?

The Nazis burned the bodies.

Belzac stopped operating December 1942, Treblinka stopped operating
after the Jewish prisoner's revolt on 2 August 1943, more or
less. "The revolt of the Jewish prisoners on 14 October 1943 put an
end to the Sobibor Camp" ("Nazi Mass Murder, A Documentary History of
the Use of Poison Gas", Kogon et al, Yale University Press, 1993, pp
136-7.)

You can also read of the burning of the bodies etc in the same book,
pp 133-136, "The Attempt to Remove the Traces".

There wasn't much left to autopsy. There wouldn't be much even if they
hadn't burned the bodies, given the 3 years. CO is not something that
leaves much of a trace in a decomposed corpse (feel free to call your
local coroner's office if you doubt this.)

>2.  Is there indeed a synergism for CO and CO2 which would come into
>play along with oxygen depletion from breathing?

Synergism? No, I don't think so. But are they additive in effect? Yes,
the basic mechanism is asphyxiation. There's nothing special about
CO2, but anything which displaced oxygen would speed death. And of
course the prisoners themselves breathing in the crowded, enclosed
space.

But even that only asks about the speculation that perhaps there was
not enough CO to kill in the exhaust of a 500HP diesel engine. What is
occurring is nearly an academic "what-if" argument. As has been said
here many times; doubters are invited to sit in a closed garage with a
500HP diesel engine running for as long as it takes to convince
them...

>3. Where did the incident supposedly occur regarding the Germans
>pushing the Jews into small rooms and "gassing them."

Treblinka, Belzac, Sobibor. I believe the discussion has mostly
revolved around Treblinka.

None of them were in "Gross Deutschland", Mr Michael...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Date: 9 Jul 1994 16:18:00 -0400
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sbradley@scic.intel.com (Seth J. Bradley) in Message-ID:
<1994Jul3.172255.10050@scic.intel.com> stated:


>> Nope, the Germans didn't drive anyone out, they merely slaughtered
millions of Polish and Russian civilians.  Of course, they didn't count,
being "untermenschen" (sarcasm intended).<<

Explain how this slaughtering escaped even the court historians.  The
Germans killed many partisans, who were operating in violation of
established international law, but never slaughtered any civilian
populations except in legitimate reprisals permitted under the same
international law.

You should also realize that the term untermenschen has the meaning of
someone who is inferior.  It does not necessarily mean sub-human or the
like.  The Germans called everyone who was not on par with German Kultur
untermenschen.

>> The Nazis "expropriated" a large portion of Poland. I can't recall the
German term, but it translated as "living space". Is App claiming that
this was  "internationally legal"?<<

Exactly when did this expropriation occur and what are your references? 
The Germans reintegrated Silesia and other parts of Germany which had been
ripped from the Reich in 1919, but that is hardly expropriation of
territory.  Poland proper was a Protectorate - the Government General of
Poland, and was never a part of Germany in any way, shape or form.

>> Afterward, in an expansive mood, he showed us the trasures stowed away
in the Karinhall cellar. Among them were some priceless classical pieces
from the Naples museum; they had been removed before the evacuation of
Naples at the end of 1943. With the same pride of ownership he had his
cupboards opened to allow us a glimpse of his hoard of French soaps and
perfumes, a stock that would have sufficed for years. At the conclusion of
this display he sent for his collection of diamonds and other precious
stones, obviously worth hundreds of thousands of marks" *<<

What is your point here, that he was a gourmand?  If so, I agree. But how
about all that *Nazi art* which the US still refuses to return to its
rightful owner.  The destruction of any and all buildings, etc. with
German National Socialist symbology upon it.  The banning of such great
sculptors and artists as Arno Breker?  Goering at worst stole the art, at
best saved it from destruction - the Allies destroyed everything they got
their hands on, or *stored* it forever.

>>"One day, some time in the summer of 1944<<

What about the testimony of both Germans and Jews who were at these
concentration camps who stated how good it was there for the inmates? 
Thies Christofferson has published photos showing the beauty of Auschwitz
in 1944 - without the so-called smoke of extermination - as have the US
government.

>> Let no one doubt that we will succeed in involving every one of those
millions in the labor process." The necessary labor force, therefore, was
to come from the occupied territories. Hitler instructed Sauckel to bring
the needed workers in by any means whatsoever." <<

Okay, so they imported laborers from outside the Reich.  I met one
Ukrainian who went to Germany as a laborer in 1943.  He stated that they
were well treated and paid, and that it was quite a difference from the
Ukraine.  He also noted that at the end of the war everyone was literally
eating out of the garbage cans because of the incessant Allied terror
bombing.

"I can not forget a professor of the Pasteur Insitute in Paris who 
testified as a witness at the Nuremberg Trial. He too was in the Central 
Works which I inspected that day. Objectively, without any dramatics, he
explained the inhuman conditions in this inhuman factory [V-2 rocket
installation, Harz Mountains, Speer's responsibility]. The memory is
especially painful, the more so because he made this charge without
hatred, sadly and brokenly and also astonished at so much human
degeneracy."

So what does this mean.  Is it inhuman if he did not get his bottle of
vino at each meal.  That accomodations were not as at the Ritz? What? 

Any moron will realize that a workforce must be clothed, sheltered and
catered to in order to produce quality workmanship.  Otherwise, not only
will the output be low, the quality abysmal, but sabotage will be rampant.
None of this happened.  In fact, according to Speers figures output kept
going up even after most of the cities were destroyed - without any drop
in quality or any real amount of sabotage.  This alone refutes your
argument.

>> Speer was associated with Hitler from 1933 until Hitler's death. He was
first chief architect for the Reich, and in 1942 was appointed Armaments
Minister. Some speculate that had Germany not lost the war, he might have
succeeded Hitler.<<

I doubt it.  Speer was an opportunist.  Brilliant, but an opportunist
without any real belief in the National Socialist Weltanschauung.  He
would never have been permitted to succeed, and no one would have followed
him.






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Article: 13620 of alt.revisionism
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Michael and the deceit of denial (Long)
Date: 9 Jul 1994 16:19:03 -0400
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kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) Message-ID:
1994Jul05.170114.10989@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> claims:

>> Note that Mr.  Michael neglected responding directly - particularly
with regard to the "Gypsies, Homosexuals and others."<<

Now that is a really intelligent assertion.  That every minor point must
be particularly refuted in depth, or one is neglecting to respond
directly.  

Quite the contrary.  I choose what I want to respond to and what I do not.
 If your point has no interest to me, bearing upon the subject, etc. I
elect to simply ignore the point to stay on track.  

>> Where did Mr.  Wiesenthal make this statement?  What, precisely, did he
say?  Did he, for instance, say that there were no _mass_ extermination
centers in "Gross Deutschland," or did he say none died in the German
camps?<<

Why dont you write the Simon Wiesenthal Center and ask for the reference.
 I understand that he stated that no camp in Gross Deutschland was an
extermination camp.  Certainly deaths occurred from typhus, disease, etc.

>>2 April         Hitler dictates his will: ``Eternal gratitude
>                will be owed to National Socialism because I
>                exterminated the Jews in Germany and Central
>                Europe''.<<

Could we please have the German.  As he issued an order in 1942, as
recovered from the German archives, and quoted in Churchills War, that
nothing was to be done concerning the Jewish Question until after the war,
this is either bogus or a mistranslation.


>> The real value of such 'crown-witnesses' in support of Irving's
      thesis was shown by an English reporter, Gitta Sereny.  In The
      Sunday Times Weekly of July 10, 1977 she told of her search for
      the employees Irving had questioned.  She managed to locate and
      interview five of them.  All of them declared--as was to be
      expected--that in their presence Hitler had not spoken of the
      extermination of the Jews, but that they could not irnagine that
      he did not know about it.<<


You are reading a lot into nothing.  The statement is as Irving noted. 
NONE ever heard Hitler EVER mention exterminating the Jews.  The addition
of *but they could not imagine that he did not know about it* could be her
addition, or simply their hindsight - given the official brainwashing
program.  Why, then, did she not ask them about their part in it, if they
knew about it.  Then they too could have been tried as War Criminals -
because, if they knew about it and did not bring it to Hitlers attention
or act to stop it - then they are guilty of *crimes against humanity*.

So your point proves nothing.

>> The court 'refused to believe this, since it runs counter to the
      truth.' Irving accepts Wolff's version as if it were a proven fact
      and nowhere does he mentions the contrary view of the court,
      though he knows it.  <<

In other words, the court had its own set of beliefs which it was not
prepared to modify in the light of evidence.  Sounds rather typical.





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Article: 13621 of alt.revisionism
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Austin App and the Numbers Game...
Date: 9 Jul 1994 16:19:05 -0400
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kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) in Message-ID:
<1994Jul05.074446.9228@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> states

>> She (Lipstadt) notes that App was the first to employ the Morgenthau
Gambit,
   contending that the United States was using Morgenthau's plan to
   administer Germany. That was, as the record shows, quite clearly
   bullshit, as "Allied treatment of Germany was the exact opposite of
   the plan." (Lipstadt, 86) The reality of the situation, of course,
   hasn't stopped denial newbies from making the same claim here on
   the net.. when others point to the facts, they stop discussing the
   Morgenthau Plan, and move on to something less embarrassing.<<


Well, I suppose that tells us something about Lipstadt then, doesnt it. 
Why dont you read the Jewish journalist Victor Gollanczs book, IN
DARKEST GERMANY which shows that the Morganthau Plan was alive and well
within the American Zone during the same period, by the way, of Bacques
OTHER LOSSES.

>>"...Once the war ended, App expanded the parameters of his defense of
Germany's political demands and wartime behaviors. ... he argued that
Germany had not been responsible for the outbreak of the war.
   ... He now commenced a more serious endeavor: defending and justifying
German atrocities. In May 1945, a week after the end of the war in Europe
and while news of the liberation of the concentration camps filled the
pages of American newspapers, App argued that what Germany had done was
legally justified in the context of the rules of warfare.

   Initially he focused on a few limited atrocities, such as the German
massacre of the inhabitants of ... Lidice. When Nazi leader Reinhard
Heydrich was assassinated in May 1942, the Germans claimed that the
villagers of Lidice had helped his assassin. They killed all the men in
the village, 192 in all, as well as 71 women. The remaining 198 women were
incarcerated in Ravensbru"ck, where many of them died. Of the 98 children
who were 'put into educational institutions,' no more than 16 survived.
Lidice was razed to the ground.<9> The annihilation of this town elicited
an intense reaction from the American public. But, App contended,
according to international law the killings were justified because the
Germans had executed everybody who aided political murders,<10> and
American law would have supported such action. He offered no evidence of
how he concluded that the entire village had aided the assassins. Nor did
he explain how murdering all the males and one third of the women,
incarcerating the rest, including the children, and razing the entire town
could be regarded as applications of international or American law."
(Lipstadt, 88-89) <<

First Lipstadt, as yourself, really should read the standards of the
Geneva Convention on Ground Warfare.  All partisans are forbidden, and are
declared outside the law, and the occupying power has every right to
execute them and EVERYONE who helped, aided or abetted them.  Britain was
consistently in violation of this throughout the war.

Second, as to German responsibility - this sounds like a replay of WWIs
*sole guilt* of the Versailles Treaty, which is just more allied
propaganda.  Germany had every right given Polish intransigence to invade
Poland to settle the questions and to halt the slaughter of the German
civilian population in the former Reich territories of Western Poland. 
The father of a friend in seminary was Volksdeutsch and told of the Polish
atrocities, which were enumerated in the German White Book - Seeing German
women having their breasts cut off, being nailed to barn doors, men being
shot down like dogs, etc. You need to go read something beside allied
propaganda.

I am quoting from David Hoggans, THE FORCED WAR:

	The Pope had launched a major peace effort in May 1939, and he had
rejected with indignation an appeal from the Archbishop of Canterbury to
earn the alleged gratitude of the Anglican, Protestant, and Greek Orthodox
Christians by condemning the policies of Hitler. Instead, the Pope
ostentatiously welcomed the victory of General Franco in Spain in May
1939. The Pope recognized as early as May 1939 that Poland was the primary
threat to peace, because the British could not attack Germany unless the
Poles were willing to serve as a pawn. Beck at that time flatly rejected
the tentative proposal of the Pope for an international conference by
declaring that Poland could not accept as binding for her the opinion of
other powers regarding the question which had arisen between Poland and
Germany.
	The Pope persuaded Admiral Nicholas Horthy, the Protestant Regent
of Hungary, to deliver a speech on June 14, 1939, urging that the Powers
accept papal good offices in settling the German-Polish dispute. This
maneuver was aimed primarily at Poland, because of the intimate relations
between Poland and Hungary. Pius XII appealed to the world on August 23,
1939, not to go to war over Danzig. He requested the envoys of Great
Britain, France, Italy, Poland and Germany to appear for an audience at
the Vatican Palace on August 31, 1939. Dr. Kazimierz Papee, the Polish
envoy at the Vatican, was unable to assure the Pope that Poland would
negotiate with Germany. The Pope had feared that this would be the case.
He responded by instructing Cortesi in Warsaw to urge Beck to accept
negotiations with the Germans on the basis of the Marienwerder proposals,
with which the Pope already was familiar. A furious scene followed between
Beck and Cortesi, which surpassed the verbal duel between Ribbentrop and
Henderson on the previous night. Beck angrily charged that the papal
nuncio was working for the Germans. He complained that Pope Pius XII was
ordering him to surrender to Germany. Cortesi was unable to calm the
excited Polish	diplomat. Beck later recalled that no single development
during the final phase of the crisis caused him so much irritation as the
persistent but unsuccessful effort of Pope Pius XII to persuade him to
negotiate with the Germans and to accept the Marienwerder proposals. It
was supremely tragic that there was a	complete absence of similar
activity from the British Side. One need only imagine the situation had
Henderson been at Warsaw with the support and confidence of Chamberlain.
(Hoggan, The Forced War, pp. 562-63
	The German Foreign Office learned the same day that official
Polish policy was not encouraging for any Danzig compromise plan. August
Papee, the Polish representative to the Vatican, gave a negative reply to
the suggestion of Cardinal Secretary of State Luigi Maglione on August
16th that Poland contribute to the preservation of peace by permitting
Germany to recover Danzig. Papee replied that Poland would invade Germany
without British and French support if Hitler attempted to secure the
return of the Danzig to the Reich. (ibid., p. 452)
>. Indeed it is. In a recent article here, which dealt with such matters,
I raised the issue of the Commissar Order, among others, which clearly
established Nazi governmental policy with regard to the brutal destruction
of millions. By your standards, then, the Nazi policy of extermination is
established, yes? It is    good to see that we can agree on something this
basic.<<

One swallow does not a Spring make.  The Commissar Order was legitimate
order in that Commissars were the ideologues and informers of the Soviet
forces.  They were the ones who were responsible for whipping the Russian
troops up into a frenzy and creating atrocities all over the Eastern Front
against German prisoners, the civilian population, etc.  To remove them
then, was only prudent.

Why do you not simply state that the order to shoot British Commandos, who
likewise violated international law, who fought without uniform, etc. also
*proves* a governmental policy of extermination of peoples.  Because you
know it does not, nor does the Commissar order.

>> Perhaps, given your obvious respect for the Austin App school of   
historical misrepresentation, it would be worthwhile for someone    to
contact the "Senior Military Historian" and ask him how he was    duped.
If you will be kind enough to provide us with his name, I    will do my
best to contact him and inquire about this.<<

I read the book while at a seminar at a University Library.  I do not have
a copy, so you will have to look it up yourself.  Let us all know what he
has to say when you contact him.

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