Archive/File: holocaust/usa wmm.0894
Last-Modified: 1994/10/29

From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Simon Says
Date: 28 Aug 1994 17:59:10 -0400
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In _Books and Bookmen_, April, 1975 issue Wiesenthal claims the "gassings"
of the Jews took place in Poland, and that "there were no extermination
camps on German soil"

Hilberg and Reitlinger, the standard "authorities", agree that the
gassings in Poland evolved from the T4 program, which of course happened
in Germany but involved only a few thousand executees.

Reitlinger further asserts that some gassings took place at Dachau, but
Hilberg doesn't seem to talk about Dachau in this regard.

Hilberg revised his book in 1985, after testifying at the first Zuendel
trial, wherein he admitted that out of the tons of documentation from the
Third Reich NO documentary evidence of a wartime extermination order, plan
or program exists.

Arno J. Mayer, of Princeton University, sttates in his 1988 study _Why Did
The Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: "From 1942 to
1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were killed
by so-called "natural" causes than by "unnatural" ones. "

Ross Vicksall is correct in asking for the single most important
evidentiary document from the exterminationist side. All the convoluted
reasoning, testimony by "eye witnesses" who testify to impossible
occurrances, etc. does not set aside the fact that there is NO real proof
other than PR that the mass extermination of Jews as a matter of National
Socialist policy ever took place.  Otherwise, why, in more than 50 years,
has not this evidence been presented so that it can be examined in an
unbiased and scientific manner. 

To my mind the fact that the exterminationists seek legal protection, and
the imprisonment of their opponents, is the single most cogent argument
against their position. 

The exterminationist camp comes around with some wonderfully convoluted
arguments, and if I were on trial and guilty I am sure I would want
someone like then to represent me. Their arguments throw snow around so
much that they obscure the points being discussed. But they do not follow
the precepts of logic.

If one says "there are no gassing extermination camps in America" then the
ordinary man in the street would read that to say that there are no camps
in America conducting gassing. He would not go into this convoluted
reasoning. This is what is wrong with their points. They have to stretch
the meanings, or change them, to fit their belief system. 

For example: What we are discussing is a systematic extermination of a
specific group of people. If gassing was the accepted method of killing
criminals and one was jewish, by the exterminationists definition that
would constitute an extermination of the jews. No it does not! A
systematic program of extermination requires extensive paperwork,
especially among as bureaucratic a people as the Germans - yet there is
none. It was logistically impossible. Forensic evidence does not support
it. Jewish historians are slowly backing away from the claims which were
gospel only a few short years ago. Yet they want to uphold it in its
entirety. This indicates to me that they see all of this as a religious
experience which must be protected at all costs, regardless of its truth
or falsity. Which by the way, is the opposite of the Catholic position
concerning Truth.

If they want to continue arguing in bad faith, so be it. Call names,
impugn character, besmirch reputations. Go ahead. But the more they do it
is the more rotten it smells to the ordinary man in the street. And he,
after all, is the final arbiter which will overthrow the holocaust.


WmMichael@aol.com



From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs Mon Aug 29 08:36:41 PDT 1994
Article: 15534 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Simon Says
In-Reply-To: wmmichael@aol.com's message of 28 Aug 1994 17:59:10 -0400
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Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 01:01:29 GMT
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From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael)
>Ross Vicksall is correct in asking for the single most important
>evidentiary document from the exterminationist side.

That's generally associated with Greg Raven, but that's probably not
very important to correct.

>All the convoluted
>reasoning, testimony by "eye witnesses" who testify to impossible
>occurrances, etc. does not set aside the fact that there is NO real proof
>other than PR that the mass extermination of Jews as a matter of National
>Socialist policy ever took place.

Really? Why do you believe this?

Would you consider memos sent between Nazi officers during the war and
in the regular course of their duties to be outside of what you
consider questionable evidence? Here:

--------------------------------------------------

"Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three
vans, without any faults occuring in the vehicles."

	Dr August Becker on 5 June 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff

*******

"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

******

  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000   ^^^^
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.

--------------------------------------------------

>Otherwise, why, in more than 50 years,
>has not this evidence been presented so that it can be examined in an
>unbiased and scientific manner. 

It has. We can only conclude you have remained blissfully ignorant of
it.

>To my mind the fact that the exterminationists seek legal protection, and
>the imprisonment of their opponents, is the single most cogent argument
>against their position. 

You're referring of course to Germany's laws, and perhaps Canada's,
against some of this.

It's circumstantial at best, what else is illegal to say in those
countries that you believe is thus proved true?

I know of no (credible) attempt in the USA to do this. Why?

Anyhow, the rest of this note is just so much unfounded speculation.

I trust that now that Mr Michael has been provided with the good
evidence he seeks (and some good basis on what to look for in the
future) he will change his views.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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