Archive/File: holocaust/usa/murungu murungu.1094
Last-Modified: 1994/10/22

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Article: 17794 of alt.revisionism
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Quality of evidence?
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 20:43:26 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 70
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NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com

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I have seen a lot of 'evidence' presented here in the form of reproduced
testimonies and court documents, which are presented in an effort to
'prove' mass gassings etc., but I have to be frank and say that I am not
impressed.  Because what exactly is the _quality_ of such 'evidence' in
many of these cases?
 
I'm not saying that "all" or even "most" of it is fraudulent, but I want
to get some idea of how much of it is so, and how much can be relied on
as being factual or genuinely historical.  I think there is a tendency
of the "exterminationists" here on AR to just blandly accept ALL of it
as true and to refuse any serious discussion about quality of evidence,
about the possibility/propability of a lot of it being worthless.
 
Postwar hysteria:
Most of this material came out in the postwar atmosphere of hysteria and
hate and revenge.  The Soviets and the western Allies had a vested interest
in demonizing the Germans and Nazis, to cover up their own crimes and
misdeeds.  German prisoners were tortured routinely, forced confessions
were extracted, their families were threated with death or exile to the
Soviet Union, and any and all methods imaginable were used to extract the
kinds of statements that are presented here as 'evidence'.  It became common
knowledge that to deny the mass genocidal gassings was to guarantee a long
prison term or execution.  It quickly became the practice to swear to such
genocidal mass gassings but to deny personal participation in them, and
thus to earn a reprieve.  'I know it happened, I saw it happen, but I didn't
do it myself!' became the refrain in the postwar courtrooms.
 
The 'sources' themselves:
I see Kurt Gerstein being quoted from, but in his 'statement', when viewed
in it's entirety, there is so much palpable rubbish that the whole thing
is just a joke.  I think to myself, if Gerstein is so important as a source
of 'proof' of the mass gassings, then the exterminationists don't have very
much at all in the way of 'evidence' for this.
 
I also see Commandant Hoess' 'confession' being quoted from, but little
mention of the fact that it came out of a postwar Stalinist Polish prison.
What kind of credibility does THAT attach to it?  Not too much I'm afraid.
I have read his "COMMANDANT OF AUSCHWITZ" book but it too is worthless as
a historical source for the same reasons.  Entertaining maybe, but worthless
so far as historical truth goes.
 
Then, of all things, I even see Filip Mueller being dredged up as a 'source'
to 'prove' the mass genocidal gassings of Jews.  I don't think I even need
to comment very much on this guy except to laugh.  There have already been
a number of postings by revisionists here about him to clarify his 'value'
as a source.
 
Gerstein, Hoess, and Mueller.  What a trio to 'prove' the Holocaust gas
chamber stories.  I think that readers of these postings who view the McVeys
and the McCarthys and the Sheins and Steins putting forward such garbage as
'evidence' can see who is serious and who is not serious about the Holocaust.
To say that such sources 'prove' the genocidal mass gassings is to lie.
 
Readers should ask themselves.  How would such 'evidence' stand up in an
American court of law?  How many minutes, or seconds, would such sources
retain their credibility?
 
 
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From oneb!kmcvay Fri Oct 21 22:04:24 PDT 1994
Article: 17803 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Summary:  "Murungu" provides the media with a fine example of
          mouth-frothing, but he still doesn't spell my name correctly.
References: 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Oct22.050223.1240@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 05:02:23 GMT

In article  murungu@delphi.com writes:

>For those interested in 'motivations' and concerned about the sincerity
>or lack thereof of Mr McVey and others of his ilk, I recently ran across
>some published information that is of interest.  I am going to reproduce
>some interesting information from two articles that were published recently
>in the Canadian print media. The first, from one of Vancouver's two daily
>newspapers; the second, from _Maclean's_, Canada's national newsmagazine.
 
>Readers here in AR may find this of interest concerning Mr McVey.

[article concerning the support of the Committee for Racial Justice
and the United Church (BC Conference) deleted - ditto MacLean's
Magazine article along the same vein. The name is McVay, "oiy veh, oiy
veh" optional.]

>Very interesting.  Here we have Jews on Internet who frequently screech at
>the revisionists the accusation that they are doing it 'for the money',
>being 'paid' to post their material.

>Now we see Mr McVay, the leading anti-revisionist poster on AR, getting
>cash handouts for what HE is doing on the Internet.  He is even getting
>assistance from the US Government's Justice Department it seems, from a
>certain Eli Rosenbaum.  Is McVey being funded and assisted by special
>interest groups?  It would seem so.  McVey, tell us more about this please.
>What is it like to cash in on the Holocaust?

Cash handouts? During the past year, I have received $50 from a Dutch
survivor, and $50 from a supporter in Sweden. I have also come very
close (days) of shutting the system down due to persistent media
problems (which have plagued the system for over two years, as anyone
familiar with my computer will tell you). 

Some folks, both Jewish and not-remotely-Jewish, were troubled by
that, and have tried, during the past few years, to alleviate the
problem, perhaps by replacing the disks, perhaps with another
computer, whatever. Until recently, none of these efforts resulted in
any changes or improvements to the system, or, other than the two
instances noted, any money. Nor, I wish to point out, have I _asked_ 
for any hardware or money. (When folks ask me why files disappear
without warning, or become mangled, I tell them - they draw their own
conclusions and, presumably, their motivations from that.)

>Another question would be: is Rosenbaum's helping of McVey's activities being
>done with US taxpayer money?  Are taxpayers being made aware of how their
>money is being spent if this is so?  Answer is: NO.  What gives Rosenbaum,
>or McVey, the right to abuse taxpayers, if this is so, in this manner?

Since the help Mr.  Rosenbaum has provided consisted of a few readily
available Soviet testimonies, all publically available to anyone
familiar with the Demjanjuk and Fedorenko affairs via simple
examination of the court records, one wonders why you are frothing at
the mouth so.

>Now don't get me wrong here.  There is nothing wrong with working at
>a convenience store/gas station.  That is honourable work.  What is
>DIShonourable is pretending to be an ordinary person doing everything on
>one's own but then behind the scenes, one is being funded and assisted by
>special interest groups.

See above - no-one has provided me funding, until recently, when the
condition of my system was made known to the press, and the press
decided it was an interesting story. Help is now being provided on
several fronts, and, quite frankly, I'm grateful for it.

>Is McVey sincere, or just another phony using the Holocaust to make money?
>Is McVey indeed a paid flunky for the deep-pocketed anti-revisionist groups
>as revisionists have long suspected?  It would indeed seem to be so, if
>these articles are factual.

Since I have been kept well informed about the various efforts to
provide me with financial assistance these past few years, while you,
quite clearly, know absolutely nothing, I can only tell you that if
there are "deep-pocketed anti-revisionist groups" out there, none of
those good folks could find them, in over two years of active
searching. 

Many of the folks who share my desire to expose Holocaust denial for
the racism it represents have also been aware of these efforts, and
the lack of result, and I suspect they, too, must be wondering who
my supporters missed in their search for assistance.

>Comments from anybody on this would be welcome.  There is no question but
>that the Holocaust is a gravy train for many, and such people have a vested
>financial interest in maintaining the old lies and inventing new lies to
>cover UP the old lies.  There's no business like Shoah business.  How

Those who, to my certain knowledge, have climbed upon the Holocaust
gravy train include Greg Raven, Mark Weber, Bradley Smith, David
Irving, Robert Faurisson and a host of others, not the least of whom
is Canada's Ernst Zuendel, who has made a fortune selling fascist,
racist hate literature all over the world. Small fry deniers routinely
try to cash in right here in this newsgroup, by advertising their hate
literature openly and often - perhaps they, the Tim McCarthy's of the
net, all harbour deep-seated envy of Mr. Zuendel's cash cow.

>people can make money off the suffering of other people in WWII is beyond
>me.  It is sickening to cash in on the deaths and suffering of human beings.
>How a McVey can live with himself by doing this I cannot understand.  I mean,
>if that is what is happening and if these articles are factual.

That _is_ what is happening, sir. And if it continues to result in
media interest, I will continue answering the media's questions. And
if that provokes more media interest, and perhaps solid funding, I
will most certainly accept it.

I promise.

And do you know what I will do with it, should this support
materialize? I will buy myself a new internet server, with sufficient
power to do the job I've been doing far more effectively, and far more
efficiently, than my old XENIX box ever could.

I'll provide remote ftp service, Mosaic, Gopher, Veronica, Wais, WWW,
and any other internet wizbang that comes down the pike that will help
me collect and distribute Holocaust data. You'll love it - it will
really give you something to vent your vitriol upon.

>It is despicable in my opinion.  I think that McVey should apologise to
>everyone here, and then quietly withdraw from AR, throw away his computer,
>and get back to living a normal, honest life.

See above. 

>Comments, anyone?  I would welcome any other information that anyone can
>present concerning whoever else is funding/assisting Mr Vey or the other
>exterminationists here in AR.  If the information presented above in the
>two articles is incorrect or mispublished, then I would like to know about
>that too.

Here, since you asked, is my comment: Many in the media have asked me
to provide examples of extreme-right vitriol, and I have never really
known which to chose from among the tens of thousands of words I've
collected from folks like you these past years. Now, however, I have
your article, and I would like to thank you for writing it. I will
even, I promise you again, see to it that it gets the widest possible
exposure - that should please you, eh, old son?

-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


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Article: 17805 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Quality of evidence?
In-Reply-To: murungu@delphi.com's message of Wed, 19 Oct 94 20:43:26 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 02:51:22 GMT
Lines: 148


From: murungu@delphi.com
>I have seen a lot of 'evidence' presented here in the form of reproduced
>testimonies and court documents, which are presented in an effort to
>'prove' mass gassings etc., but I have to be frank and say that I am not
>impressed.

Well then perhaps you should, as has been suggested numerous times,
restrict yourself to memos and other documents written between Nazi
officers in the regular course of their duties which describe exactly
these crimes.

Somehow these revisionists love to pose this line of reasoning;
questioning of later, post-war testimonies by Nazi officers, Allied
troops, survivors, etc (as if they've all made up the same fantastic
tales!) but somehow fail to acknowledge the fact that the Nazis left
pretty good written records of their own activities, as much as they
did try to destroy such records.

Much of it is in the form of mundane bureaucratic reporting to each
other. I have personally seen surviving entry records from Auschwitz,
what happened to all those people? It's an interesting question, one
the revisionists pretend doesn't exist.

They've seen it all many, many times. Yet again and again people like
Mr Murungu will play dumb in public and claim that all that exists are
post-war evidence.

It's simply not true, and Mr Murungu knows that full well.

Bradley Smith has yet once to even acknowledge the existence of the
many documents whose texts has been posted here dozens of times, and
to his attention.

Mr Raven has recently deigned to address the Franke-Grisch report,
reproduced below, only to claim it is fraudulent based largely on his
own rather questionable reasoning relying primarily on this
bureacratic report to Himmler et al having some possible factual
errors regarding exact number killed in a day, the exact number of
stairs leading to the gassing chamber (F-G reports 5 or 6 stairs in
his report, there were 10 stairs IF we have guessed right which exact
facility he is describing, thus Mr Raven concludes this indicates a
forgery, I don't think so), whether bodies could have been taken to
the first or the ground floor (mere semantics since different
countries call the "ground floor" either the first or ground floor as
Mr Raven should have known), whether there were three or four pillars
in the gassing chamber (F-G reports 3, if it was Krema II there were
4, so what? did F-G enter the chamber to count these? or just report
what he remembered?  does this mean there was *not* a gas chamber?
Absurd!) and so forth.

But even that was after much prodding of Mr Raven and also his
repeated insistence that no such documents existed no matter how many
times this claim was simply answered with presentation of exactly
these documents, he insisted over and over they simply did not exist,
he was not aware of any, etc, batting these claims right back through
flurries (blinding snowstorms!) of these documents being presented to
him in volley.

Now, by some standards there exist better evidence than the F-G
report. It's certainly unfortunate that the original seems to be
missing. This alone does not prove a forgery, and it seems quite
consistent with everything else presented and other, similar
documents. But again there is a big difference between suggesting the
possibility of a forgery (by whom? when?) and proving a forgery, or
many forgeries as revisionists would have one believe occurred.

So why all the posing?

I think it's quite clear what they're up to...The evidence is not
limited to post-war testimonies, it's only further corroboration. And
Mr Murungu knows this, he's seen other documentation presented right
here many times. Even at that it would be quite difficult to believe
that so many completely unrelated people, without coordination,
corroborated the same story over and over. Even this claim by
revisionists that the testimony is somehow faulty cries out for some
proof other than the mere speculation that no physical law is violated
by suggesting that hundreds of completely unrelated people came up
with the same detailed descriptions of the mass killing process.

But why does he claim otherwise? Why does he act as if he has never
seen evidence such as the memos etc that Nazi officers wrote to each
other describing the extermination process he wants to deny occurred?

It's an interesting question.


--------------------

"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

	Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
	on 16 September 1942

  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Article: 17806 of alt.revisionism
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From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
Date: 20 Oct 1994 08:53:28 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
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murungu@delphi.com writes:

>With Holocaust 'evidence', each and every statement by 'eyewitnesses'
>and 'survivors' and each and every document, is taken at face value.
>Nobody is allowed to question such statements or documents or to make
>critical observations.  To do so is to invite an avalanche of hate,
>a mass of accusations of 'anti-semitism', 'Holocaust denial', and so on.

Nonsense.  M. Murungu has obviously never actually seen an historian at 
work.  I have, for most of my life.  As Jamie McCarthy has put it in 
another thread, part of the work of any historian is to "impeach" all 
evidence as a matter of course.  Can it entirely have escaped M. Murungu's 
attention that a great deal of the work of the historian, be it on the 
Holocaust or on any other event, is to engage in exactly what M. Murngu 
claims is lacking:  an exegisis of the available evidence?

Mind-boggling.


Chris
-- 
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@nyx.cs.du.edu     Kibo flavor:  Unlisted
Disclaimer:  standard    It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.


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Article: 17831 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 20 Oct 1994 06:55:59 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <38549v$67d@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:

# Comments from anybody on this would be welcome.  

Well, here's my comment: you're a liar, a fool, and a hypocrite.

I see no problem with the fact that someone helps Ken McVay 
buy some computer equipment (and this is what was mentioned).

The IHR Nazis makes a living of denying the Holocaust. Ernst
Zundel, another Nazi who is a "leading" revisionist, also solicits 
and receives donations. We didn't hear you protest this.

Moreover, the only "assistance" Ken got from the Justice Department
is the transcript of some interrogations of former guards in the
death camps. What's wrong with this, you fool? It really bothers
you when someone goes after the facts, right?


-Danny Keren.




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Article: 17832 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Quality of evidence?
Date: 20 Oct 1994 07:09:22 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 57
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:

# 'I know it happened, I saw it happen, but I didn't
# do it myself!' became the refrain in the postwar courtrooms.

Is that so?

>From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.



# of all things, I even see Filip Mueller being dredged up as a 'source'
# to 'prove' the mass genocidal gassings of Jews.  I don't think I even need
# to comment very much on this guy except to laugh.  There have already been
# a number of postings by revisionists here about him to clarify his 'value'
# as a source.

I encourage everybody to watch the movie "Shoa", where Mueller talks
at length, and decide for themselves if he's reliable or not. 
 
# Gerstein, Hoess, and Mueller.  What a trio to 'prove' the Holocaust 
# gas chamber stories.  

Gerstein, Hoess, and Mueller are three among many people who
testified about mass murder by gassing in Nazi death camps.
Gerstein's testimony is flawed in that he exaggerates the numbers,
but is accurate on the whole. Moreover, it is supported by the
very reliable testimony of Prof. Pfannenstiel and others.

You see these "revisionist scholars" always quoting Gerstein, as if
he was the only witness to gassings in Treblinka and Belzec. It's
a common trick they use: they pick one witness who might seem less
reliable than others and "forget" all the other witnesses.

# Readers should ask themselves.  How would such 'evidence' stand up 
# in an American court of law?  

Nearly all of it would stand up very well in an American court of law.


-Danny Keren. 


From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!misvms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman Sat Oct 22 05:09:52 PDT 1994
Article: 17834 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 20 Oct 1994 00:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 91
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <20OCT199400153154@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: 
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    You asked for comments, so I will give you comments...

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes...

[two oft posted articles about Ken McVey deleted]

>Very interesting.  Here we have Jews on Internet who frequently screech at
>the revisionists the accusation that they are doing it 'for the money',
>being 'paid' to post their material.

    Interesting comparison.  I hadn't really thought of Raven in quite the
    same light as McVey, but maybe Raven's budget is just as tight...

>Now we see Mr McVay, the leading anti-revisionist poster on AR, getting
>cash handouts for what HE is doing on the Internet.  

    Well, actually the articles were in future tense.  The church is hoping
    to raise money for Ken.  The articles you posted didn't say that he has
    received much of anything to this point.

    >He is even getting
>assistance from the US Government's Justice Department it seems, from a
>certain Eli Rosenbaum.  Is McVey being funded and assisted by special
>interest groups?  It would seem so.  McVey, tell us more about this please.
>What is it like to cash in on the Holocaust?

    Hardly seems like Ken is getting very rich at this.

>Another question would be: is Rosenbaum's helping of McVey's activities being
>done with US taxpayer money?  Are taxpayers being made aware of how their
>money is being spent if this is so?  Answer is: NO.  

    I dunno.  They don't seem to be keeping it much of a secret that
    Rosenbaum has provided information to McVey.  I'd say taxpayers are
    more aware of this than many things the government does keep secret. 
    And how much money can a few minutes of Rosenbaum's time be?  For that
    matter, with Ken's archives what they are, it may be that Rosenbaum
    gets as much value as he gives from any interaction they have.  It may
    be that YOU as an American taxpayer are accruing benefits from this
    Canadian talking to your government representative!

    >What gives Rosenbaum,
>or McVey, the right to abuse taxpayers, if this is so, in this manner?

    I guess I have concluded that it is not abuse.  :>

>Now don't get me wrong here.  There is nothing wrong with working at
>a convenience store/gas station.  That is honourable work.  What is
>DIShonourable is pretending to be an ordinary person doing everything on
>one's own but then behind the scenes, one is being funded and assisted by
>special interest groups.

    Well, if it was behind the scenes then Ken probably wouldn't have given
    McLeans an interview, would he?  And to my knowledge, up to this point
    he basically has been paying for things on his own (as an ordinary
    person).  Seems we are finding out the situation may change even before
    it does so.  That certainly doesn't seem like it is "behind the scenes"
    at all.

>Is McVey sincere, or just another phony using the Holocaust to make money?

    Which other phonies are you referring to?  Smith?  Irving?  From what I
    have read here of McVey's writing, I find him to be very sincere.  I
    might not agree with 100% of what he writes, but even if I disagree
    with something it seems to be what he sincerely believes.  Have you
    noticed him writing things he doesn't sincerely believe?

>Is McVey indeed a paid flunky for the deep-pocketed anti-revisionist groups
>as revisionists have long suspected?  It would indeed seem to be so, if
>these articles are factual.

    Well, actually as the articles say he may become paid in the future, it
    would seem NOT (in the past tense) if these articles are factual.

>... 
>It is despicable in my opinion.  I think that McVey should apologise to
>everyone here, and then quietly withdraw from AR, throw away his computer,
>and get back to living a normal, honest life.

    Well, actually I have had a different reaction since I first read the
    articles this morning.  I have been thinking about pledging some money
    to help support McVey's work.  I am a grad student with not much more
    of an income than Ken has, but I think I can scrounge something up.  I
    am very impressed with what I read in these two articles.  I find it
    puzzling that two revisionists have posted the articles today as though
    they are damaging to Ken, when in fact most would find them very
    flattering.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932



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Article: 17835 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Quality of evidence?
Date: 20 Oct 1994 00:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <20OCT199400242008@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes...

>I have seen a lot of 'evidence' presented here in the form of reproduced
>testimonies and court documents, which are presented in an effort to
>'prove' mass gassings etc., but I have to be frank and say that I am not
>impressed.  Because what exactly is the _quality_ of such 'evidence' in
>many of these cases?

>I'm not saying that "all" or even "most" of it is fraudulent, but I want
>to get some idea of how much of it is so, and how much can be relied on
>as being factual or genuinely historical.  I think there is a tendency
>of the "exterminationists" here on AR to just blandly accept ALL of it
>as true and to refuse any serious discussion about quality of evidence,
>about the possibility/propability of a lot of it being worthless.

    Lets say that 95% of the evidence is faulty because it is exagerated,
    inexact, the chain of evidence is broken, etc.  The other 5% proves the
    holocaust.

    And in fact, probably much more than 5% of the evidence is pretty good.

>I also see Commandant Hoess' 'confession' being quoted from, but little
>mention of the fact that it came out of a postwar Stalinist Polish prison.
>What kind of credibility does THAT attach to it?  Not too much I'm afraid.
>I have read his "COMMANDANT OF AUSCHWITZ" book but it too is worthless as
>a historical source for the same reasons.  Entertaining maybe, but worthless
>so far as historical truth goes.

    As you surely know, this issue has been discussed here several times. 
    Hoess's confession and book were written at different times (before and
    after his trial I believe) under very different situations.  They agree
    on the key issues.  In fact, a close examination of Hoess's writings
    shows that he is an excellent source of much information.  Your
    conclusions here just don't match the facts.

>Then, of all things, I even see Filip Mueller being dredged up as a 'source'
>to 'prove' the mass genocidal gassings of Jews.  I don't think I even need
>to comment very much on this guy except to laugh.  There have already been
>a number of postings by revisionists here about him to clarify his 'value'
>as a source.

    I may be wrong about this, but I believe it was the deniers who brought
    up Mueller.  His testimony is not anywhere near the strongest testimony
    available and that appears to be why the deniers continue to bring him
    up.  But as the point up top says, even if 95% of the evidence is not
    strong, the other 5% proves the holocaust.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs Sat Oct 22 05:09:55 PDT 1994
Article: 17836 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
In-Reply-To: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu's message of 20 Oct 1994 00:15 MST
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <20OCT199400153154@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:08:01 GMT
Lines: 15


And I suppose Deborah Lipstadt is making her living off of denying the
deniers. And then others are selling newsletters denying Lipstadt. And
anyone who is left is denying that they're making a living off of
denial, or counter-denial, or counter-counter-denial.

Seems to me like a serious case of denial. Might cure the country's
unemployment problem tho, at the current rate.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet Sat Oct 22 15:28:06 PDT 1994
Article: 17840 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet
From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 05:41:34 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
I can't help but to compare the treatment of 'evidence' of mass
genocidal gassings here in AR, with the treatment of evidence in
the O.J. Simpson case.
 
In the O.J. courtroom, every bit of evidence is carefully weighed
and analyzed, and special attention is paid to how the evidence
was found or discovered.  The slightest hint of impropriety, or the
slightest hint of a lack of credibility on the part of witnesses,
is seized upon and scrutinized in the interests of a fair trial for
the accused and in the interests of pursuing the course of justice.
 
With Holocaust 'evidence', each and every statement by 'eyewitnesses'
and 'survivors' and each and every document, is taken at face value.
Nobody is allowed to question such statements or documents or to make
critical observations.  To do so is to invite an avalanche of hate,
a mass of accusations of 'anti-semitism', 'Holocaust denial', and so on.
 
Just imagine if in the O.J. courtroom, the prosecutors simply told the
defense to prove that he did _not_ commit the alleged crimes.  To prove
that the evidence presented was _not_, or _might_ not be, genuine.  And
if the defense could not prove that he was innocent, he would fry.  Imagine
if the prosecution was not required to actually prove anything at all in
connection with O.J.'s guilt, but the burden of proof were rested entirely
with the defense to prove that he was innocent.  What kind of justice would
that be?  Could any such court ever pretend that it was fair and impartial
or just?
 
Yet that is exactly the process at work with Holocaust evidence.  We are told
to prove that such evidence is _not_ factual or genuine.  The accusations
of mass genocide are made and the burden of proof is left to the people
who are the accused, to 'prove' that such events did not take place.
 
An entire people, the German people, is defamed with the accusations of mass
genocidal gassings and a variety of other hideous crimes.  Indeed the entire
world is accused of not having prevented such crimes, of having somehow aided
and abetted them by not 'stopping' them.  No proof required, just accusations
and slander and defamation.
 
I think this point, i.e. the treatment of evidence and the course of justice
concerning such Holocaust claims, is often overlooked.  Surely the same
standards of proof that we have in our courts of law should be applied
towards the crimes or alleged crimes the Germans are accused of having
committed?
 
Comments anyone?
 
 
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From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet Sat Oct 22 15:28:07 PDT 1994
Article: 17841 of alt.revisionism
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Soap/Lampshades/Shrunken heads?
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 05:42:14 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 64
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
I am amazed at the tenacity with which the old Holocaust lies of human
lampshades, human soap, and shrunken heads are defended here in AR.
The Raul Hilbergs and the Deborah Lipstadts, and Yad Vashem, no longer
attempt to defend such tales as factual or historical, but here in AR
we see various people still desperately clinging to this stuff.  They
just can't seem to let the old lies die a decent and peaceful death.
They are fanatically defended by the true believers here.
 
Of course, it is a little bit hazy.  I don't usually see statements of
'it happened!  human heads were shrunk!' or 'it happened! the nazis made
lampshades and soap out of human beings!'.  Instead of such clear-cut
statements of faith, I am hearing 'the shrunken heads were on display
at a museum in Germany!' which IMPLIES that they were genuine.  Or 'prove
to us that the nazis did _not_ make soap out of human beings!' which lays
the burden of proof of the story NOT being true upon the doubter.
 
I would like to clear some of this up.  What is required is a very clear
and unambiguous statement from exterminationists here in this forum
concerning these issues.  A simple 'yes' or 'no' answer will be sufficient
to establish whether or not McVey, Keren, Shein, Stein et al really and
truly believe these tales.  So here are some simple and clear questions:
 
1.  Do you believe that the Nazis did in fact take human heads and shrink
    them?  And were the displayed shrunken heads shown at postwar museums
    genuine or phony in your opinion?
 
2.  Do you believe that the Nazis took human flesh or human body fat and made
    soap out of it, for whatever purpose?
 
3.  Do you believe that the Nazis took human skin and made actual lampshades
    out of it?
 
4.  Is Deborah Lipstadt a 'Holocaust denier' for rejecting these stories?
 
5.  Is Raul Hilberg an 'anti-semite' or 'self-hating Jew' for no longer
    claiming these stories to be factual or historical?
 
6.  Is Yad Vashem a nest of Nazis and anti-semites for having rejected such
    stories, or for having cast general doubt on the testimonies of so-called
    eyewitnesses concerning the Holocaust?
 
7.  Does McVay, or Keren, or any of the other 'believers' around here in AR
    know _more_ than Lipstadt, Hilberg, or Yad Vashem?
 
Now I don't want any squirming around, I don't want any ambiguous statements
implying this or that.  I just want a clear and honest yes or no answer to
questions 1-4 from Keren, McVay, et al.
 
Comments from both exterminationists and revisionists are welcome.
 
 
 
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From oneb!kmcvay Sat Oct 22 15:47:04 PDT 1994
Article: 17846 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
References: 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Oct22.223912.6472@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 22:39:12 GMT

In article  murungu@delphi.com writes:

>With Holocaust 'evidence', each and every statement by 'eyewitnesses'
>and 'survivors' and each and every document, is taken at face value.

Nonsense. Had you actually _read_ the discussions here long enough
to acquire some knowledge, you would know this is not true.

>Nobody is allowed to question such statements or documents or to make
>critical observations.  To do so is to invite an avalanche of hate,
>a mass of accusations of 'anti-semitism', 'Holocaust denial', and so on.

Horsepucky. In the case of Maidanek, for instance, historians have
never been able to agree with respect to a victim count. They
cannot, it seems, even get _close_ to agreement. Do they subject
each other to "an avalanche of hate?" No. Do they accuse each other
of anti-Semitism? No.

Many historians cited here question eyewitness testimony, and
discuss the errors they believe they have found. Again, no
"avalanche," no accusations.

When, however, one refers to "Jewish slime" in the course of such a
discussion, it should not be surprising that accusations of
anti-semitism follow, as indeed they should.

>An entire people, the German people, is defamed with the accusations of mass
>genocidal gassings and a variety of other hideous crimes.  Indeed the entire
>world is accused of not having prevented such crimes, of having somehow aided
>and abetted them by not 'stopping' them.  No proof required, just accusations
>and slander and defamation.

Strange that the German people accept the reality of the Nazi
terror, isn't it?

>I think this point, i.e. the treatment of evidence and the course of justice
>concerning such Holocaust claims, is often overlooked.  Surely the same
>standards of proof that we have in our courts of law should be applied
>towards the crimes or alleged crimes the Germans are accused of having
>committed?

"Revisionist evidence" is explored here in exhausting detail, and
its fallacies examined with a fine-toothed comb. After proving it to
be false, however, beyond doubt, there is little point in rehashing
it ad nauseum.

Deniers, many of whom are most certain fascist anti-semites, often
claim Butz' massive conspiracy theory to be reality. And yet, with
all this noise, they have yet to produce a single piece of
corroborating evidence, while Butz' work has been shown to be
nothing less than a shoddy and transparent attempt to baffle the
ignorant into accepting racism in the guise of "historical
revisionism."

And that, Mr. "Murungu," is the issue at hand - the Holocaust is not
_about_ Jews, it is about racism.

-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


From oneb!kmcvay Sat Oct 22 15:50:17 PDT 1994
Article: 17847 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Soap/Lampshades/Shrunken heads?
References: 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Oct22.224700.6689@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 22:47:00 GMT

In article  murungu@delphi.com writes:

>I am amazed at the tenacity with which the old Holocaust lies of human
>lampshades, human soap, and shrunken heads are defended here in AR.

What proof have you, or anyone else, provided to support your claim
that these things are "lies?"

>The Raul Hilbergs and the Deborah Lipstadts, and Yad Vashem, no longer

None of these people have provided evidence which refutes any of
these stories. (If you disagree, you are invited to produce it, with
appropriate citations, so we can examine it.)

>attempt to defend such tales as factual or historical, but here in AR
>we see various people still desperately clinging to this stuff.  They
>just can't seem to let the old lies die a decent and peaceful death.
>They are fanatically defended by the true believers here.

Fine. Provide proof that Mazur et al lied at Nuremberg. Provide
proof that Lipstadt, Hillberg, Bauer, or any other historian has
discussed any such proof(s).

>Of course, it is a little bit hazy.  I don't usually see statements of
>'it happened!  human heads were shrunk!' or 'it happened! the nazis made
>lampshades and soap out of human beings!'.  Instead of such clear-cut
>statements of faith, I am hearing 'the shrunken heads were on display
>at a museum in Germany!' which IMPLIES that they were genuine.  Or 'prove
>to us that the nazis did _not_ make soap out of human beings!' which lays
>the burden of proof of the story NOT being true upon the doubter.

Show me rebuttal of Mazur's testimony.

>I would like to clear some of this up.  What is required is a very clear
>and unambiguous statement from exterminationists here in this forum
>concerning these issues.  A simple 'yes' or 'no' answer will be sufficient
>to establish whether or not McVey, Keren, Shein, Stein et al really and
>truly believe these tales.  So here are some simple and clear questions:
 
>1.  Do you believe that the Nazis did in fact take human heads and shrink
>    them?  And were the displayed shrunken heads shown at postwar museums
>    genuine or phony in your opinion?

I believe that someone shrunk heads at Buchenwald. I can't comment
on the heads you ask about, as I have neither seen them or seen them
discussed in any of the texts I've read.

>2.  Do you believe that the Nazis took human flesh or human body fat and made
>    soap out of it, for whatever purpose?

Yes - Mazur and the British witnesses at Nuremberg have _never_ been
shown to be incorrect.

>3.  Do you believe that the Nazis took human skin and made actual lampshades
>    out of it?

Yes.

>4.  Is Deborah Lipstadt a 'Holocaust denier' for rejecting these stories?

Deborah Lipstadt has never refuted Mazur et al, or rejected their
testimony. Feel free to provide any citation demonstrating she has
"rejected" their testimony (by providing proofs that they all lied),
or that she has refuted existing testimony regarding the other two
matters.

>5.  Is Raul Hilberg an 'anti-semite' or 'self-hating Jew' for no longer
>    claiming these stories to be factual or historical?

See above, and show me where Hilberg provides evidence contrary to
Mazur's.

>6.  Is Yad Vashem a nest of Nazis and anti-semites for having rejected such
>    stories, or for having cast general doubt on the testimonies of so-called
>    eyewitnesses concerning the Holocaust?

See above, and show me where Yad Vashem has "cast general doubt" on
eyewitness accounts.

>7.  Does McVay, or Keren, or any of the other 'believers' around here in AR
>    know _more_ than Lipstadt, Hilberg, or Yad Vashem?

See above.

>Now I don't want any squirming around, I don't want any ambiguous statements
>implying this or that.  I just want a clear and honest yes or no answer to
>questions 1-4 from Keren, McVay, et al.

See above.

-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 17856 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-08.dialip.mich.net!user
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 18:08:07 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-08.dialip.mich.net

murungu@delphi.com wrote:

> Comments, anyone?  I would welcome any other information that anyone can
> present concerning whoever else is funding/assisting Mr Vey or the other
> exterminationists here in AR.

As far as I know, Mr. McVay is the only one to receive any money.

And, as far as I know, he hasn't gotten much yet.  A few hundred bucks
so far to buy a CD-ROM and so on.  More may be forthcoming in the future,
if the media coverage stirs up people who hate neo-Nazis enough to give
some money to the cause.  But not much to date.

As far as I know, Mr. Raven and Mr. Smith make their livings solely off
the Holocaust.  They are editors of their own magazines dedicated to the
Holocaust.  Mr. Raven is editor of the Journal published by the IHR.
Care to tell us, Mr. Raven, how many millions of dollars have passed into
and out of the IHR's coffers in the last decade or so?  Care to tell us,
Mr. Smith, how much _you've_ received in donations and purchases in the
last year?

I've donated all my time to date.  All of it.  It's certainly in the
hundreds of hours I've spent researching and reading and writing;  most
likely in the low thousands.  How much money have I received for my
efforts?  Zilch.  Not a penny.

(And I don't want any, either.  If anyone does want to help me out, buy
me some books and pay my overdue library fines.  :-)

The same holds true for every other anti-revisionist on this list,
except for Mr. McVay, as far as I know.

Ken McVay has typed in almost every word in his incredibly voluminous
archives -- how many megabytes?  He can't afford a scanner, you see,
unlike Dan Gannon.  For his efforts, he's gotten a few hundred bucks in
donations and a case of tendonitis in both elbows and a serious problem
in one wrist.

And when Ken might be on the verge of getting some money to replace his
old 386 box, and his flaky old hard drives, the revisionists start
screaming?

Bah.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 17857 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-08.dialip.mich.net!user
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Quality of evidence?
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 18:16:06 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 57
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-08.dialip.mich.net

murungu@delphi.com wrote:

> It became common
> knowledge that to deny the mass genocidal gassings was to guarantee a long
> prison term or execution.  It quickly became the practice to swear to such
> genocidal mass gassings but to deny personal participation in them, and
> thus to earn a reprieve.  'I know it happened, I saw it happen, but I didn't
> do it myself!' became the refrain in the postwar courtrooms.

I've heard this before, expressed and implied.

Please present the evidence that led you to the conclusion in your first
sentence above:  that denying the gassings led to a harsh sentence.

Please present the evidence that led you to the conclusion in your second
sentence above:  that admitting the gassings happened led to a light sentence.

Please explain why, if denying personal involvement was paramount, people
like Hoess admitted their own involvement.

> I also see Commandant Hoess' 'confession' being quoted from, but little
> mention of the fact that it came out of a postwar Stalinist Polish prison.
> What kind of credibility does THAT attach to it?  Not too much I'm afraid.

It's not a confession.  It's his memoirs.  He writes about his childhood,
about growing up, about experiences in the Army.  He writes a bit about
his wife.  He writes of his growing disillusioned with religion.

And he also writes about the gassings and the Nazi extermination effort.

> I have read his "COMMANDANT OF AUSCHWITZ" book but it too is worthless as
> a historical source for the same reasons.  Entertaining maybe, but worthless
> so far as historical truth goes.

Then you've read the forward to that book.  In that forward, Steven
Paskuly explains why the memoirs must be accepted as legitimate.

Please explain why you disagree with Paskuly.

> Then, of all things, I even see Filip Mueller being dredged up as a 'source'
> to 'prove' the mass genocidal gassings of Jews.  I don't think I even need
> to comment very much on this guy except to laugh.  There have already been
> a number of postings by revisionists here about him to clarify his 'value'
> as a source.

Those postings only discredit the revisionists, showing that they have no
interest in discovering the truth.

> Readers should ask themselves.  How would such 'evidence' stand up in an
> American court of law?  How many minutes, or seconds, would such sources
> retain their credibility?

For fifty years, and counting...
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 17865 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-08.dialip.mich.net!user
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 18:39:53 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-08.dialip.mich.net

murungu@delphi.com wrote:

> Just imagine if in the O.J. courtroom, the prosecutors simply told the
> defense to prove that he did _not_ commit the alleged crimes.  To prove
> that the evidence presented was _not_, or _might_ not be, genuine. [...]
>  
> Yet that is exactly the process at work with Holocaust evidence.  We are
> told to prove that such evidence is _not_ factual or genuine.

Just imagine if O.J. had committed to the crime.  If he'd stood up in court
and said, "yes, I did it.  I intended to do it, and I did it."

Because that's exactly what e.g. Hoess did.

Then imagine if a few hundred of O.J.'s closest friends testified, saying
that yes he did it, they saw him do it, they'd heard him talking about
wanting to do it too.  They were there when it was done, and they saw it,
and they're sure that Nicole was killed and that the killer was him.

Because that's exactly what e.g. Kremer and Boeck did.

Then imagine that a few hundred of Nicole Simpson's friends testified,
saying that they saw him do it too.

Because that's exactly what e.g. Mueller did.

Yet the defense still wants to plead _not guilty_!

The prosecution (and I) give the defense (revisionists) an exceedingly
odd look, and say something like "uh...sure...well, go ahead and make
your case, explain why all those hundreds of testimonies should all be
disregarded."

And "murungu" claims that, after seeing document after document, after
hearing eyewitness after eyewitness, after hearing the defense _confess_,
that the prosecution has yet to fulfill the burden of proof.

Well, there's no pleasing some people, is there now.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 17866 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-08.dialip.mich.net!user
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soap/Lampshades/Shrunken heads?
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 18:49:28 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 73
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-08.dialip.mich.net

murungu@delphi.com wrote:

> 1.  Do you believe that the Nazis did in fact take human heads and shrink
>     them?  And were the displayed shrunken heads shown at postwar museums
>     genuine or phony in your opinion?

Yes;  I have no reason to doubt the exhibits presented.

And I can't speak for shrunken heads I haven't seen, but again I have no
reason to believe them to not be products of sick Nazis.

> 2.  Do you believe that the Nazis took human flesh or human body fat and made
>     soap out of it, for whatever purpose?

Yes.

It's important to distinguish between mass production of soap, which is
acknowledged by all to be a wartime rumor, and individual cases of making
soap out of people.  The latter I believe to have occurred several times.

> 3.  Do you believe that the Nazis took human skin and made actual lampshades
>     out of it?

Yes.

I'm certain that this occurred at Buchenwald.  I don't know if it
occurred anywhere else;  as far as I know, it didn't.

> 4.  Is Deborah Lipstadt a 'Holocaust denier' for rejecting these stories?

Careful!

Lipstadt rejects all soap stories, as far as I know.  But I've not seen
her express an opinion about shrunken heads or lampshades.

To answer your question:  no.

> 5.  Is Raul Hilberg an 'anti-semite' or 'self-hating Jew' for no longer
>     claiming these stories to be factual or historical?

No.

> 6.  Is Yad Vashem a nest of Nazis and anti-semites for having rejected such
>     stories, or for having cast general doubt on the testimonies of so-called
>     eyewitnesses concerning the Holocaust?

First part of your question:  I wasn't aware that they'd done so.
Source please.

Second part of your question:  I wasn't aware that they'd done so.
Source please.

To answer your question (which, like the previous two, is rhetorical):  no.

> 7.  Does McVay, or Keren, or any of the other 'believers' around here in AR
>     know _more_ than Lipstadt, Hilberg, or Yad Vashem?

Regarding the minor insignificant details like the soap stories, I'd say
there's a good possibility that I know as much or more than Lipstadt.
It's hard to say;  I've only read one line from her about soap (she says
something like "we should admit it's not true and get on with it").
Maybe she knows more than I do.

And I'm surely not claiming to know more than any of the real scholars
do about anything of substance.  I don't have the time nor talent to
become an expert.

But the soap thing is such a tiny specialized area of knowledge that it's
feasible that I'm as familiar with the evidence as anyone else is.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 17867 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!news.umass.edu!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soap/Lampshades/Shrunken heads?
Date: 20 Oct 1994 22:38:06 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <386rge$17r@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu


 wrote:
 
# I am amazed at the tenacity with which the old Holocaust lies of human
# lampshades, human soap, and shrunken heads are defended here in AR.

According to the most respected historical institute in Germany
dealing with the Holocaust, SS men did shrink some heads of
prisoners and did use human skin for various purposes in the
Buchenwald camp. The "Institute for Contemporary History"
was kind enough to mail me material regarding this. It contains 
photographs of the shrunken heads and various ornaments made from 
human skin. One poster from Germany said he saw the shrunken heads 
and the ornaments from human skin in a museum.

There are questions about the soap story. It seems most historians
agree there was no mass production of soap, however some agree
there were attempts to make soap from human fat (but on a limited
scale) in a laboratory at Danzig.

# The Raul Hilbergs and the Deborah Lipstadts, and Yad Vashem, no longer
# attempt to defend such tales as factual or historical, 

You are, plain and simple, a liar. Show me where Prof. Lipstadt,
for example, said there were no shrunken heads or ornaments from
human skin in Buchenwald.

# 1. Do you believe that the Nazis did in fact take human heads and shrink
#   them?  

Yes.

# 2. Do you believe that the Nazis took human flesh or human body fat and made
#    soap out of it, for whatever purpose?

As I wrote, there is doubt about this. My answer: I don't know, and
am trying to study more about this.

# 3.  Do you believe that the Nazis took human skin and made actual lampshades
#     out of it?

And other ornaments as well.

# 4.  Is Deborah Lipstadt a 'Holocaust denier' for rejecting these stories?

Doesn't she question only the soap issue, you little liar?

# 5.  Is Raul Hilberg an 'anti-semite' or 'self-hating Jew' for no longer
#     claiming these stories to be factual or historical?

Same question here.

# 6.  Is Yad Vashem a nest of Nazis and anti-semites for having rejected such
#     stories, or for having cast general doubt on the testimonies of so-called
#     eyewitnesses concerning the Holocaust?

Same question here.

# 7.  Does McVay, or Keren, or any of the other 'believers' around here in AR
#     know _more_ than Lipstadt, Hilberg, or Yad Vashem?

Same question here.

Now two questions for you, "revisionist scholar". 

Do you believe Russian soldiers raped German women after occupying
parts of Germany? 

Do you believe the US used atomic weapons against Japan during WW2?


-Danny Keren.




Article 17872 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 20 Oct 1994 11:54:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 6
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3863qt$lhr@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:

>>It is sickening to cash in on the deaths and suffering of human beings.

Reminder: Both  Greg Raven and Bradley Smith make their living off the
backs of the dead...


Article 17921 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
In-Reply-To: murungu@delphi.com's message of Thu, 20 Oct 94 05:41:34 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 03:08:25 GMT
Lines: 114


From: murungu@delphi.com
>With Holocaust 'evidence', each and every statement by 'eyewitnesses'
>and 'survivors' and each and every document, is taken at face value.
>Nobody is allowed to question such statements or documents or to make
>critical observations.

Just judging by your own postings, and those of other revisionists,
it's certainly hard to see who is stopping y'all from questioning
whatever you like.

That you may be utterly wrong and lacking in any credibility is not
something you can expect to be disregarded just for the sake of fair
play or whatever you're referring to, wrong is wrong whether you
consider it rude to point it out or not.

How can we know for sure, in particular how can YOU know for sure,
that you're not just simply deluded? It can happen, right? People get
deluded about things, some people are consistently deluded about a lot
of things.

Well, one way is to rub your beliefs up against a lot of other
people's, people who are generally reasonable. If most of them find
your ideas or beliefs unlikely or worse then I suppose you can come to
a few possible conclusions:

	a) You see something others simply don't see, you're
	a genius.

	b) There is a conspiracy by all those people to deny
	you are right and they know it.

	c) You are simply wrong, deluded, mistaken, etc.

Well, one cannot prove any of those with mathematical accuracy. But we
all know which is more common, even if the "c"s often claim "a" or "b"
in their defense.

Maybe they're just crackpots. There are crackpots in this world,
right? I mean even you must recognize that possibility even if you're
loathe to accept the term when applied to yourself.

>To do so is to invite an avalanche of hate,
>a mass of accusations of 'anti-semitism', 'Holocaust denial', and so on.

Denying the Holocaust occurred is often referred to as "holocaust
denial", no question about that. Not sure what the complaint is.

However, I'd like you to produce examples (perhaps other than a
one-shot hit and run random person) where someone contended
anti-semitism and there simply was none.

This is the biggest straw-man of revisionists, the crocodile tears,
the cheap and tawdry attempt at sympathy where their flawed logic has
failed. I'm unpopular, I'm a martyr, they call me an anti-semite.

First, about half the people who died in the Nazi extermination camps
were not Jewish. So you deny their fate also, another several million
deaths.

Second, there has been absolutely bona-fide jew-bashing here by
revisionists. Nothing even slightly subtle or inflated.

What else would you make of:

  From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
  Date: 17 Jul 1994 01:49:55 GMT
  >After reading Shein, can anyone really be surprised that the Germans 
  >would people like him in concentration camps during WW2.  That is 
  >precisely where people like him belonged--that is the only thing his 
  >talmudic logic, his filthy sophistry, is ever able to prove.

or

  From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
  Date: 21 Mar 94 09:45:48 -0500
  >The Jew rules only through fear, an atmosphere of conscious and subconscious 
  >terror permeating every facet of society generated by strategic planning, a 
  >socially-caustic mix of money, myth, media, and manipulative politics being 
  >the empowering dynamoes of the grand plan.
   ...
  >I do not offer any apologies whatsoever for my beliefs.  I offer no apologies 
  >for the expression of those beliefs on this group, or on alt.skinheads.  I 
  >have revealed the heartfelt thoughts of a National Socialist with bold honesty

Or:

  From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
  Date: 26 Jun 1994 21:39:11 -0400
  >Mr Kaufman is obviously Jewish and a living example of why the Nazis 
  >tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
  >camps for the duration of the war.


I mean, is this subtle stuff? Is this debateable stuff? Subject to
interpretation? There's a lot more where that came from.

I have a better interpretation of events: You are deluded, or possibly
just so driven by hate you are attempting to be cynically manipulative
of others.

If you have a case, make it. If not, drop it. But spare us this
patronizing bullshit which only is a pathetic attempt to tell people
how to think. They can think for themselves.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17924 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
Message-ID: <1994Oct21.002105.31894@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 21 Oct 94 00:21:05 -0500
References: 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 27

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  
> An entire people, the German people, is defamed with the accusations of mass
> genocidal gassings and a variety of other hideous crimes. 

This kind of appeal to nationalism happens all the time, and
it gets less and less complelling each time you repost it.
\

1) Not all Germans were Nazis, not all Nazis were German.  
The blame for the Holocaust falls at the feet of the Nazis
and the Nazi gov't of Germany, not the German people as a whole.

2) The first victims of the Holocaust were _Germans_.  They 
were stripped of their citizenship, harrased, oprresed, 
and eventually killed by the Nazis.  All because they were Jewish, 
or because the Nazi gov't said that they were. 

Germany first and foremost has a good reason to hate Hitler
and all he stood for.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "...God sets us nothing but riddles.."
Miami University             -Dostoyevski's _The Brothers Karamazov_
Oxford, Ohio 45056                yeech! ackphtbt! ungh!
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 17926 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
Date: 21 Oct 1994 22:32:03 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <389fh3$lca@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <386098$20u@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Suppose that:

1) Someone would give public speeches, declaring he is going
   to kill his former wife.

2) He would write a book, and include in it threats to kill her.

3) Many people would testify they saw him kill her.

4) Documents would be discovered, in which he states that he
   is going to kill his former wife, the method of killing he is
   going to use, and, finally, that he indeed killed her.

5) He would testify in court that he killed her.


Would such a person be convicted? Most probably yes.

Now, the Nazis said they are going to kill the Jews of Europe;
Hitler said it himself, publically, a few times. He also
wrote a book, stating in it that he wishes to expose Jews
to poison gas. Many people - Jews, Germans, Poles, Russians,
and others - saw Nazis kill Jews and other victims. Documents
were found, in which leading Nazis state that they are going
to kill the Jews, as well as detailed reports about the methods
used for the killing and the numbers of victims. And, finally,
many Nazis testified about how they killed Jews and others in
the death camps and elsewhere, and that the orders given to
them were to kill every Jew they could capture.

So?


-Danny Keren.



Article 17935 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
In-Reply-To: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu's message of 21 Oct 94 00:21:05 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <1994Oct21.002105.31894@miavx1>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 06:24:13 GMT
Lines: 16


From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
>2) The first victims of the Holocaust were _Germans_.  They 
>were stripped of their citizenship, harrased, oprresed, 
>and eventually killed by the Nazis.  All because they were Jewish, 
>or because the Nazi gov't said that they were. 

The last victims of the Nazis were also Germans, as any cursory review
of the results of the Nazis' insanity would reveal.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17943 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@ganymede.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 21 Oct 1994 00:12:39 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <38711n$eds@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References:  <3863qt$lhr@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ganymede.sun.csd.unb.ca

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:

>It is sickening to cash in on the deaths and suffering of human beings.

What death and suffering?  After all, according to our esteemed revisionist
scholars ("Yes, Watson, that _is_ an oxymoron") there was no death or
suffering.  Egads, they were taught how to properly sip champagne while
they sat around the pool at the Auschwitz bordello.  Didn't they ever
tell you that?


Keith Morrison

The Well, Yes Actually We Do Quote of the Week

"Do you really think I haven't read volume after volume of Holocaust-related
 material?  Do you really think I would make a blanket statement about
 evidence without having some idea what I would be getting?"
                         
                                            - Greg Raven

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************
 


Article 17953 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soap/Lampshades/Shrunken heads?
Date: 21 Oct 1994 12:22:43 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <388bqj$mrc@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:  <386rge$17r@cat.cis.brown.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <386rge$17r@cat.cis.brown.edu>,
Danny Keren  wrote:

>There are questions about the soap story. It seems most historians
>agree there was no mass production of soap, however some agree
>there were attempts to make soap from human fat (but on a limited
>scale) in a laboratory at Danzig.

The _Encyclopedia Judaica_, in its article "Poland," has a photograph
of what claims to be the laboratory in which the experiments on making
soap from human fat took place.  It is a picture of a tub full of corpses
and what looks to be various soqp-making equipment.  I do not know if
the photograph is authentic or not.  Perhaps someone with an interest
in the subject can research the provenance of that photograph.
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 17983 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Quality of evidence?
Date: 21 Oct 1994 12:53:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,   wrote:
>I'm not saying that "all" or even "most" of it is fraudulent, but I want
>to get some idea of how much of it is so, and how much can be relied on
>as being factual or genuinely historical.  I think there is a tendency
>of the "exterminationists" here on AR to just blandly accept ALL of it
>as true and to refuse any serious discussion about quality of evidence,
>about the possibility/propability of a lot of it being worthless.

    If you wish to engage in a *serious* discussion of this, I am quite
willing.  However, your habit of simply shouting claims without producing
evidence of your own does not count as a *serious* discussion. 

>Postwar hysteria:
>Most of this material came out in the postwar atmosphere of hysteria and
>hate and revenge.

    Which does not, however, make it false.


>The Soviets and the western Allies had a vested interest
>in demonizing the Germans and Nazis, to cover up their own crimes and
>misdeeds.

    a) What is your evidence for this?

    b) What about evidence which came from sources other than the allies?
       (E.g., reports from Finnish sources posted here by Kari Nenonen.)


>German prisoners were tortured routinely, forced confessions
>were extracted, their families were threated with death or exile to the
>Soviet Union, and any and all methods imaginable were used to extract the
>kinds of statements that are presented here as 'evidence'.

    a) What is your evidence for this?  Please give specific names
       of German prisoners subjected to this treatment, and the
       nationality of those inflicting it.

    b) What about German sources such as Eduard Schulte, who risked
       his life during the war to bring news of what he had learned
       about the nature of Auschwitz to the attention of the Allies?
       Schulte was anti-Nazi, and spied for the allies.  However, the
       OSS considered him to be very conservative and one of
       their most reliable and accurate agents.  Torture could not
       possibly have been used in his case.

>It became common
>knowledge that to deny the mass genocidal gassings was to guarantee a long
>prison term or execution.

    a) What is your evidence for this?

    b) What about those (such as Hoess) who confessed to mass genocidal
       gassings even though he knew it meant execution?

    c) What about Hoess voluntarily writing his memoirs after he was
       convicted and knew death awaited him?  In them he reiterated 
       his initial confession (which had been obtained by beating and
       liquor), mentioning that he had been beaten and didn't really
       remember what he had said then.  (If he was forced to write these
       memoirs, why wasn't he forced to leave this damaging part out?)

    d) What about people like Franz Suchomel, who was convicted and
       served prison time, yet still continued to admit his guilt?

    e) What about people like Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, who continued to
       testify that he saw gassings long after the postwar hysteria
       had subsided?

    f) What about people like Franz Stangl's wife, who learned of the
       nature of the Treblinka II extermination camp from a drunken boast 
       by another officer while she was visiting her husband?  Why
       would that officer make up such a story, or why would Frau
       Stangl lie about such a thing?  Clearly she was not under
       indictment for the crimes.


>It quickly became the practice to swear to such
>genocidal mass gassings but to deny personal participation in them, and
>thus to earn a reprieve.  'I know it happened, I saw it happen, but I didn't
>do it myself!' became the refrain in the postwar courtrooms.

    The questions about Hoess are repeated.

    Hoess's testimony was corroborated by SS Private Boeck, Filip Mueller,
Alter Fajnzylberg, SS Judge Georg Konrad Morgen, Henryk Tauber, and many
others. 

    Why did the SS dynamite the supposedly innocent crematoria, yet leave
everything else (including a perfectly good air-raid shelter) standing? 


>The 'sources' themselves:
>I see Kurt Gerstein being quoted from, but in his 'statement', when viewed
>in it's entirety, there is so much palpable rubbish that the whole thing
>is just a joke.

    a) Please describe what is "rubbish" and what evidence you have for
       it.  I am aware that he is wrong about the number of people packed
       into a chamber, and also about which of the three Reinhard camps
       he visited with Dr. Pfannenstiel two years earlier as well as some
       minor details of the trip such as who was in what car.  But aside
       from that, what else is wrong? 

    b) You seem unaware that several friends of Gerstein, and a Swedish
       diplomat, testified that *during the war* Gerstein told them that
       mass gassing was going on.  On the other points, his statements
       to them agree with his postwar statement.  Since his statements
       were made during the war, again torture cannot be an issue.

    c) Gerstein was corroborated by SS Dr. Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, the man
       Gerstein said was with him.

    d) Gerstein was corroborated by eyewitness accounts of the Polish
       resistance viewing from a distance (so that they misinterpreted
       the engine exhaust as steam) but noted that Jews entered the
       camps by the thousands but none left.

    e) Gerstein was corroborated by prisoners who escaped from the camp
       during the war.

>I also see Commandant Hoess' 'confession' being quoted from, but little
>mention of the fact that it came out of a postwar Stalinist Polish prison.
>What kind of credibility does THAT attach to it?  Not too much I'm afraid.
>I have read his "COMMANDANT OF AUSCHWITZ" book but it too is worthless as
>a historical source for the same reasons.  Entertaining maybe, but worthless
>so far as historical truth goes.

    You must address questions such as why, if he was forced into writing
it, he was not forced to omit the detail that he had been beaten and
liquored up when first captured.  (I suspect that the liquor is where the
"Wolzec" error came from.  Drink a pint of vodka and then try saying
"Belzec.")


>Then, of all things, I even see Filip Mueller being dredged up as a 'source'
>to 'prove' the mass genocidal gassings of Jews.  I don't think I even need
>to comment very much on this guy except to laugh.  There have already been
>a number of postings by revisionists here about him to clarify his 'value'
>as a source.

    The only thing I have seen brought up to discredit Mu"ller is a
mistake about the shape of a chimney on a certain date (the chimney was
rebuilt to a different shape), and deliberate further exaggeration of
Mu"ller's colorful language used to describe a phenomenon which has been
shown to be physically possible.

    Documentary evidence found in the files of the Auschwitz construction
administration corroborates his eyewitness testimony.  For example, Filip
Mueller said there were fake showers and hollow metal columns with holes
used to introduce the gas.  Inventory sheets show four "wire-mesh
introduction devices with wooden covers," a gas-tight door, and a small
number of showerheads in the room identified as a "gassing cellar" in a
letter from Bischoff to Kammler.  The construction drawings for the room
show no plumbing going to these supposed showers, though the same drawings
show the plumbing for some water faucets in the room.

    An SS memo claims that the crematoria could dispose of over 4,000 
bodies a day.  While this may not have been possible in fact, why would 
they boast of such a high number to their superiors?  That's over a 
million bodies a year.  One does not build such capacity unless one 
expects to use it.


>Gerstein, Hoess, and Mueller.  What a trio to 'prove' the Holocaust gas
>chamber stories.  I think that readers of these postings who view the McVeys
>and the McCarthys and the Sheins and Steins putting forward such garbage as
>'evidence' can see who is serious and who is not serious about the Holocaust.

    We bring forth and interpret evidence with detailed technical
discussions and explanations of how pieces of evidence fit together to
show a pattern.  You just say "It's ridiculous because I, the great
Murungu, say so."  You bring no evidence of your own to the discussion. 
Who is serious here and who is not? 


>To say that such sources 'prove' the genocidal mass gassings is to lie.

    They are hardly the only sources.  I have in this post included others
which corroborate the sources you dismiss so lightly.  The evidence
converges on a conclusion.  There is so much evidence which agrees on the
important points that in order for it all to be false there must have been
a major conspiracy - the testimonies could not agree as they do without
coordination. 

    What is your evidence for this conspiracy?  Who ran it, who
participated in it, how was it organized, how did its members communicate? 


>Readers should ask themselves.  How would such 'evidence' stand up in an
>American court of law?

    Pretty well, actually.

    Emailed, as from his lack of substantive response to several earlier
posts I suspect Mr.  Murungu may also suffer from ARMS (Acquired
Revisionist Myopia Syndrome). 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18017 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
In-Reply-To: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca's message of Sat, 22 Oct 94 22:39:12 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <1994Oct22.223912.6472@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 01:25:38 GMT
Lines: 57


From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
>And that, Mr. "Murungu," is the issue at hand - the Holocaust is not
>_about_ Jews, it is about racism.

Good point, but it's also about the value and dignity of human life.

By the end of the war the Nazis treated their own countrymen not very
differently from how they treated those they professed to hate a few
years before. Life was cheap to them, so long as it wasn't their own
and served their crazy ideas, their egos, etc.

What else can we say about the Nazi high command, in April 1945
sending out 12 and 13 year olds and old men with broomsticks to
challenge Russian tanks on the bridges into Berlin?

What else can we say about Hitler and others retreating into a bunker
and sacrificing their country to the bitter end rather than brokering
some sort of peace when it was obvious to any sane person that the end
was long past? They knew they could not win, could not hold out very
long. They were quite simply cowards, they let tens of thousands more
of their fellow countrymen die (men, women, children) so they could
continue toasting each other and living in their fantasy world for
just a little while longer. Their lives were important, others' were
expendable, every one of them. Hitler and his cronies knew full well
that in the totalitarian regime they had created only they could
broker peace (so long as they appeared to still be in control, which
they desparately made evident they were.) Even if it meant
unconditional surrender. Something that angers me is when people refer
to Hitler in the bunker as insane. That forgives him somehow. But he
wasn't insane, he was only insanely selfish, one more toast, here is a
nice wine, what shall we have for dinner, something nice, ah, I do
hope the bombing outside isn't making you nervous, shall I put on some
music? General? Please send another official order that all Hitler
Youth shall defend the bridges to the end, I will sign it, make sure
the Allies see I am still in command...now about that wine?

What else can we say about the T4 gassings, where Nazis took German
children, declared them "defective", and killed them all in the name
of creating some sort of master race?

The Jews, Gypsies etc were just more victims. But anyone who thinks
that this is about only them misses the point entirely. It is about
the value of human life, and not allowing oneself to be duped into
throwing away their rights because they're promised that only someone
else is going to be hurt. It's one of the oldest political tricks in
the books.

	Fool me once, shame on you.

	Fool me twice, shame on me.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18043 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soap/Lampshades/Shrunken heads?
Date: 23 Oct 1994 00:13:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
murungu (murungu@delphi.com) writes:
>I am amazed at the tenacity with which the old Holocaust lies of human
>lampshades, human soap, and shrunken heads are defended here in AR.
>The Raul Hilbergs and the Deborah Lipstadts, and Yad Vashem, no longer
>attempt to defend such tales as factual or historical, but here in AR
>we see various people still desperately clinging to this stuff.

    I posted a long article about soap in which I made my position quite
clear.  I have emailed a copy to Mr. Murungu.

    The gist of it is that there were *two* soap stories.  One is that the
Nazis engaged in mass production of soap from Jewish fat, labeled "RIF". 
Although this was a widespread rumor, absolutely no evidence has ever been
found to support it, no first-hand eyewitness has claimed to have seen the
manufacturing process, and one must indeed therefore conclude (as has Yad 
Vashem) that this is false - it never happened.

    However, the Nuremberg proceedings contain an entirely different soap
story.  The Danzig Institute conducted experiments on the use of human
fat, and three people - Mazur and two British POWs at Stutthof
concentration camp - testified that using a recipe provided by Prof. 
Spanner of the Danzig institute an experimental batch of soap was made at
Stutthof.  It did not bear the initials "RIF" and was not distributed
commercially.

    Unlike the RIF soap, for the making of which no direct witness could
ever be found, Mazur and the British POWs claimed to be first-hand
participants in the manufacturing process.  Thus I would presume their
story to be true unless some evidence is brought forward to indicate that
they were lying.  To the best of my knowledge this has never happened. 

    Still, I think it's a mistake to make too much of this.  Nothing in
the testimony indicates anybody was killed with the intent to use the body
to make soap.  While it is probable that some would have been, from the
testimony there is nothing which proves that any of the corpses used were
Jewish.  In fact, although it sounds shocking from our point of view, I
don't see that there was anything criminal about the activity. 

    The shrunken heads can be seen in the Buchenwald museum, so obviously
they exist.  *Somebody* made them.  The lampshades also clearly existed. 
Holocaust deniers claim they were all goatskin, not human.  However, some
of the lampshades contain tattoos, things not usually found on goats.  I 
have never seen Lipstadt or Yad Vashem deny the lampshade and shrunken 
head stories; I would appreciate a literature reference.

    Buchenwald was liberated by the US Army.  Murungu therefore seems to
believe either a) that the Germans were not capable of making shrunken
heads and lampshades, but the US Army was, or b) the Germans found it
amusing to make fake shrunken heads and to tattoo goats.  I ask him for
his evidence that the US Army made shrunken heads and human skin
lampshades, or that there was a German tattoo artist who went around
practicing his art on goats. 

    Koch, the commandant of Buchenwald, was executed for the sadistic way
in which he ran the camp.  However, it was not the Allies who did this. 
His excesses were too much even for the SS; he was charged, tried, and
executed by the Nazis themselves after an investigation by SS Judge Georg
Konrad Morgen.  There was no Nazi plan or policy to produce lampshades and
shrunken heads; this was a bit of "freelance" inhumanity on the part of
Koch and his men.

    Gen. Clay believed (at least at one time; I don't know if he ever
changed his mind) that Koch's wife Ilse was unfairly convicted of having
personal responsibility for the atrocities.  (The SS had charged her, but
acquitted her, unlike her husband.) This does not mean that Clay said that
the acts did not happen at all, only that *she personally* was not
responsible for them. 

    From the execution of Commandant Koch, as well as another trial of an
SS officer for brutality in which the court explicitly accepted the
necessity of killing the Jews even as it convicted the officer of having
done it brutally (Danny Keren has posted it before), it would appear that
there was at least a faction within the SS whose view was exactly the same
as that of our own judicial system regarding death row inmates - they are
to be killed, but not brutalized.  Execution of those not useful as slaves
was official policy, but sadism was not, and was sometimes punished. 

    Nevertheless, the leadership cannot entirely escape blame.  First, it
seems Himmler acted to stall the investigation into Koch's crimes.  (See
Feig, Connilyn: "Hitler's Death Camps" [Holmes & Meier, 1979] p. 105.) The
virulent rhetoric used to demonize the Jews inflamed passions and
contributed to the incidence of brutality against those portrayed as the
mortal enemies of the German people.  And the official policy makes the
Nazi leadership quite monstrous; that they were not *infintely* monstrous
does not somehow excuse their crimes. 

    This is what I believe.  If Mr. Murungu thinks I am in error about
anything, I ask him to produce *specific* evidence and quotations, with
references.  It is not at all clear that Yad Vashem has denied the
Stutthof soap story, and complete news to me if they have denied the
lampshade and shrunken head stories.  If there is refutation, fine - I
have no problem with that.  I *do* have a problem with people who say that
Mazur and the British POWs were lying, yet cannot point to any evidence
which would suggest that. 

    So far the only reason Murungu has given for doubting the lampshades
and shrunken heads - both of which were physically introduced into
evidence - is that it sounds farfetched to him.  But to me it sounds
equally farfetched to think that the US Army produced them.  We know that
even the SS considered Koch a sadistic brute and executed him for it. 
Therefore on balance I think it more believable that the Germans running
Buchenwald manufactured them.  If Murungu has any evidence of US Army
fabrication of lampshades and shrunken heads, he should bring it out
rather than simply crying "It can't be true!  It's too ridiculous to 
believe!"

    Or is that all he can do?

    A copy of this article has been emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18054 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin)
Reply-To: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <1994Oct22.050223.1240@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 01:48:12 GMT
Lines: 22


In a previous article, kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) says:

[much of excellent and dignified article deleted]

>
>Here, since you asked, is my comment: Many in the media have asked me
>to provide examples of extreme-right vitriol, and I have never really
>known which to chose from among the tens of thousands of words I've
>collected from folks like you these past years. Now, however, I have
>your article, and I would like to thank you for writing it. I will
>even, I promise you again, see to it that it gets the widest possible
>exposure - that should please you, eh, old son?
>
Since Ken has now straightened this matter out, in his usual accurate and
dignified way, perhaps the revisionist lackeys could drop it as the
non-issue it is, since it is entirely irrelevant to the attempt of the
Nazi Germans to exterminate the Jewish race in Europe during WWII.
--
Gordon McFee ai292

I'll write no line before its time!


Article 18072 of alt.revisionism:
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From: chambles@whale.st.usm.edu (John William Chambless)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 23 Oct 1994 19:58:48 -0500
Organization: Nihilists for no Tomorrow
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References: 
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In article ,   wrote:
]>Readers here in AR may find this of interest concerning Mr McVey.
 
 
]Article:  CHURCH AIDS INTERNET NAZI-FIGHTER
>          By Gordon Clark, Staff Reporter
 
]> > The United Church of Canada has come to the aid of Vancouver
]> > Island Nazi-fighter Ken McVay...
]> >
]> > Support for McVay will be funnelled through the anti-racism
]> > organization Committee for Racial Justice, and the United Church
]> > will issue tax receipts...
]Article:  BATTLE ON THE INTERNET
> 
]> > McVay has received help, in the form of research and additional
]> > documents, from supporters who include Eli Rosenbaum, chief
]> > war-crimes prosecutor for the U.S. justice department...

]> > week, however, a group of Vancouver-based admirers persuaded a local
]> > charity, the Committee for Racial Justice, to raise money for McVay's
]> > Fascism and Holocaust Archives--and his one-man crusade may now become
]> > a full-time job.

]> > _Maclean's_ Magazine (Oct. 17, 1994), p. 6.

>Now we see Mr McVay, the leading anti-revisionist poster on AR, getting
>cash handouts for what HE is doing on the Internet.  He is even getting
>assistance from the US Government's Justice Department it seems, from a
>certain Eli Rosenbaum.  Is McVey being funded and assisted by special
>interest groups?  It would seem so.  McVey, tell us more about this please.
>What is it like to cash in on the Holocaust?
 
>Another question would be: is Rosenbaum's helping of McVey's activities being
>done with US taxpayer money?  Are taxpayers being made aware of how their
>money is being spent if this is so?  Answer is: NO.  What gives Rosenbaum,
>or McVey, the right to abuse taxpayers, if this is so, in this manner?

I see that you have the total lack of reading comprehension skills
characteristic of most Holocaust revisionists. McVay, after carrying on his
work for quite a while with no monetary support, is being given funds
by PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS who believe that what he's doing is a good thing.

As for Rosenbaum's help, since he is involved in war-crimes prosecution,
it is natural and erasonable for him to provide McVay with documents
and other help.

Researchers routinely get assistance from goverment agencies, and no one 
whines about it, except for people like you.

BTW: Thanks for posting those article excerpts; you certainly
cheered me up, as well as increasing my admiration for Ken McVay.

Guten tag.


Article 18130 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 25 Oct 1994 19:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <25OCT199419195732@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

>Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
> 
>: And I suppose Deborah Lipstadt is making her living off of denying the
>: deniers. And then others are selling newsletters denying Lipstadt. And
>: anyone who is left is denying that they're making a living off of
>: denial, or counter-denial, or counter-counter-denial.

    Barry, I am not so sure the Lipstadt is makeing her living off of
    denying the deniers.  She is a college professor and is probably paid
    $30-$40 thousand a year for that.  Authors of academic books generally
    make very little money from their publishing.  My guess is that she has
    made in the hundreds to low thousands for her book.

    Academic texts pay less than minimum wage when you figure in all the
    hours of research they take.  Professors write them for academic
    rewards other than direct revenue.

    I welcome comments or corrections from any academics out there reading
    this post.

    danny
===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18134 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
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Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 19:26:42 GMT
Lines: 20

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: And I suppose Deborah Lipstadt is making her living off of denying the
: deniers. And then others are selling newsletters denying Lipstadt. And
: anyone who is left is denying that they're making a living off of
: denial, or counter-denial, or counter-counter-denial.

: Seems to me like a serious case of denial. Might cure the country's
: unemployment problem tho, at the current rate.

      This has been probably the best bit of witticism I've seen around 
here in a while.  A little good humor can't hurt, even if it is from a 
Revisionist Denier!  :)

      -Rick
-- 
 _____________________Rick Savage ______________________
|     Access this ftp site for many interesting files:      Rick Savage     | 
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Article 18135 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:39:25 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <5e01iPt.murungu@delphi.com>
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[Michael Stein says...]
>Obviously, buckets don't levitate from the floor...
>And obviously, liquid blood doesn't literally spurt from the
>ground like Old Faithful.
 
Now wait a minute.  Why 'obviously'?  The story has been told
and it has been repeated by Elie Wiesel and others.  Are you
saying that they _LIED_?  Of course not.  They were merely
"in error".  They were "confused".  Is that what you would say?
We are not allowed to say that Jews "lied", right?
 
>But what *does* happen is that people see things - shocking,
>horrible things - and they describe them as best they can.  Sometimes
>the horror and raw emotion causes them to use strong imagery in their
>language - but you find a strong core of truth in what they say if
>you stop to analyze it slowly and honestly.
 
Oh come on now, Michael.  They either saw the jumping buckets or they
didn't.  And they didn't because buckets of flesh DO NOT JUMP.  And
THAT means that they LIED.  And that means that anybody wanting to
learn about the Holocaust must know that eyewitness accounts and
survivor testimony have to be verified as factual, that such accounts
need to be corroborated by physical evidence before they can stand up
as historical fact.
 
>The underlying scientific basis for the "geysers of blood" has been
>previously explained here.  The gas generated by decomposing bodies
>finally manages to break out from the ground rather suddenly when the
>spring thaw comes, or for that matter whenever the pressure from the gas
>becomes great enough enough to break out.  And so bits of dirt (and bits
>of bodies, because the gas is exploding out of the torsos) get thrown up
>into the air from the shallow graves as the pressure from the gas is
>finally stronger than the ground above it.
 
Michael Stein says it all.  He is telling us that the story is true.
He _wants_ us to believe the story.  Because Jews never lie you see.
The eyewitnesses and survivors of the Holocaust never lie.  Never.
ALL tales of the Holocaust are TRUE and that's it.  No discussion.
Finito.  The buckets of flesh jumped.  They geysers of blood spurted
from the ground.  The heads were shrunk.  The skin was made into
lampshades and the human fat was made into soap.  The stories were
told so they MUST be true.  We have it from Michael Stein.  To doubt
is to malign Jews, to malign religious dogma that has incorporated
the Holocaust as a new and central tenet.  No need to prove it.
It was said and therefore it happened.  There must have been a way!
 
>Not a geyser, exactly.  I think a "spring" of blood would be more
>accurate...
 
Now you are changing the story.  You can't take the story, the
tale, that was told by a survivor or an "eyewitness" and then
tailor it to make it more palatable, more believable.  If the
story is absurd, then it must be rejected in toto.  And the
spinner of the absurd story has NO credibility with anything else
that he/she has to say.  If they LIE, they are not credible as
"eyewitnesses".  This is obvious and yet it is resisted by the
true believers.
 
>So Bradley Smith is really laughing at his fellow simple workingmen
>who reacted with horror at bits of flesh and blood-soaked dirt and
>organs thrown up in the air by escaping gas, and described what they
>witnessed as "geysers of blood."
 
No.  Bradley Smith is laughing at the rediculous story as it was
related by Elie Wiesel, NOT the story as it has been tailored and
altered to a more fashionable fit by Michael Stein.  By doing the
alterations Michael is piling more lies upon the original lie.
Rather than protect the first lie with more lies, surely it would
be better to just jettison ALL lies.  Let's get rid of all the
stupid Holocaust lies and then have a look at what's left.  Then
maybe we can all get someplace.
 
>But - and I say this in all sincerity - I'm really glad that Mr.
>Smith himself was never forced to see such things.  Nobody should have
>to see such things.
 
Don't worry, Michael.  NOBODY ever saw such a thing because, quite
simply, it never happened.  Except in the neurotic sado-masochistic
fantasies of very sick people.
 
 
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Article 18136 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:39:52 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[Michael Stein says...]
>And in that morgue, limbs are suddenly severed and yet still
>occasionally twitch.  This is something that biology lab students can
>tell you happens, something farm kids who have seen chickens decapitated
>can tell you happens.  (Where do you think the expression, "Running
>around like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from?)  But maybe
>Filip Mu"ller (and Bradley Smith, for that matter) had never seen that
>happen before, had never even *heard* of that happening before...
>And one time when that twitching limb is in a bucket, and hits the
>side of the bucket, and it rocks or slides a little - well, if you're not
>prepared for that, have never seen or heard of anything like it, so you're
>suddenly confronted with something that looks like it's straight out of a
>Clive Barker horror novel - well, I think it might make a really strong
>impression on your mind.  So strong that the shock comes through in your
>description, and you say that the bucket "jumped."
 
I have seen dead snakes, after having been killed, still curling or
uncurling now and then.  I have to admit, it gave me a momentary fright
when I first witnessed this.  I had shot a very large poisonous snake
and when it started moving I thought for a second that I might have
missed and that it might wreak vengeance on me.  Later it turned out
to have been non-poisonous and I knew I needed to brush up on my
snake identification.  But I did not go around exaggerating the size
of the snake, or talking about "jumping buckets" of snakes, or anything
else absurd.  If I did, I would have rightly been ridiculed and called
a liar.  So why is "jumping buckets of flesh" when it comes to the
Holocaust a different situation?  We're talking, with this buckets thing,
of whole buckets jumping in the air, and of _living_ human flesh within
those buckets moving so much that the buckets actually take off again
and again into the air.  THAT IS THE STORY WE HAVE BEEN TOLD.  But
Michael Stein is saying that it was different but that somehow the
original story is still true.  Alter.  Change.  Incorporate.  Make
the story believable any which way one can, because survivors and
eyewitnesses never lie.  Never.  Riiiiight.
 
>...And so it's possible Mu"ller is lying - I'm perfectly willing
>to admit that I can't *prove* this specific story.
 
Why not just jettison it and be done with it?  You know he lied,
I know he lied, Bradley Smith knows he lied, and the readers of
these postings know he lied.  And we all know that to defend
such obvious lies is to discredit the entire Holocaust edifice
and to demonstrate dishonesty.  Take the jumping buckets of
flesh lie and throw it out with the trash.  Please.  Admit that
the story is a lie and let us move on.
 
 
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Article 18160 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: murungu@delphi.com's message of Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:30:28 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com> 
	<37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> 
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 20:52:08 GMT
Lines: 29


From: murungu@delphi.com
>I have tried a simple experiment and asked a few ordinary people about
>the Holocaust.  First I said how terrible the Nazis were.  They agreed.
>Then I said they did unbelievably evil things in the camps.  They agreed
>again.  Then I mentioned torture, beatings, killings, and so on, and
>eventually got around to the buckets of flesh that jumped.  My subjects
>then just smiled, and a couple even laughed.  One looked puzzled and
>just didn't believe that such a claim could ever have been made.  The
>others probably assumed that I just made it up as a joke or something.
>I assured them that such a story _had_ been claimed to be factual, and
>then I mentioned the geysers of blood, etc. to demonstrate that a
>number of such stories have been told.  They just couldn't believe it.

Well, since you believe their reactions to this and expect us to then
we can believe their reactions to the other items and expect you
to. Case closed on the bucket of flesh and geysers of blood, it didn't
happen, and case closed on the Nazi Holocaust, it did happen.

Fair enough?  Or are we only supposed to accept your method of proof
when it suits your particular belief system? Hey, it's *your*
experiment.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18161 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: murungu@delphi.com's message of Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:30:59 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com> 
	<37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> 
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 20:54:20 GMT
Lines: 23


From: murungu@delphi.com
>You can tell people that xxxx number of millions of Jews were gassed
>and they don't bat an eyelid.  But if you talk about human lampshades,
>or shrunken heads, or suchlike, and their imagination comes alive and
>they get interested.  But when you talk about geysers of blood or
>jumping buckets of flesh, they just laugh.

Ok, we accept your methods:

1. xxxx millions of jews gassed - accepted as proven.

2. Human lampshades, shrunken heads - likely.

3. geysers of blood, jumping buckets of flesh -- unlikely.

Is there anything remaining to discuss? I think that settles it.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18162 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Buckets of Flesh (was: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny)
In-Reply-To: dzk@cs.brown.edu's message of 26 Oct 1994 12:27:42 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
	<38lhvu$imu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 21:05:24 GMT
Lines: 51


From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
>First, to the best of my knowledge, Mueller doesn't speak English.
>In the film "Shoa", he talks in German. So, the word "jump" is
>probably a translation. Moreover, "jump" can just be a bad
>choice of word. He didn't say that the bucket actually lifted
>itself off the floor. 
>
>I can't believe I'm really debating these two clowns, who try to
>reduce the whole history of the Holocaust to one word in one
>sentence by one survivor of one camp... 

Remember that Bradley Smith insists that the bucket was doing the
lambada.  Pretty remarkable when the dance wasn't even invented for
another 40 years after.

Or that's certainly as accurate a depiction of his words as any
revisionist ever presents of others' words, particularly on this
issue.

Close enough, the word lambada appeared in his note, it had something
to do with the Mueller thing, point scored.

It's interesting how revisionists insist a priori that all survivor's
testimony is to be discounted EXCEPT when they find one word in one
survivor's testimony they think they can make some propaganda hay out
of.

I assume this means we can begin presenting survivor's testimony as
evidence again? Or are they still all liars from Mars who weren't even
on the planet during the Holocaust?

It's because they don't want to deal with the hard evidence, like the
Nazi memos documenting the holocaust.

Let's face it, if they had any answer to the hard evidence, the stuff
even they claim is of a form that is indisputable, they would have
presented it a long time ago. It has been 50 years, certainly several
years for most of the revisionists here during which times they've
managed to write long and tedious tracts about fund-raising speeches
made during WWI (yes that's a one) and human lampshades and
soap. Somehow they never get around to the obvious stuff (other than
the occasional "forgeries, all forgeries".)

Wonder why.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18174 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:30:28 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[Bradley Smith says...]
>Keren believes Muller's testimony in Shoah is "rather accurate:"  Maybe it
>is. On the other hand, who's going to trust a man who "testifies" that he
>watched a bucket of human flesh "jump about" on a crematory floor?...
>Longshoreman and other workers laugh at that kind of stuff and are
>contemputous of the professors who would have them believe it...
>I'd love to watch Danny Keren down on the waterfront trying to convince
>the workers there that he can make a bucket of flesh dance the samba for
>them...
>On the other hand, the Filip Muellers and Danny Kerens appear to be meant
>for each other. They represent two generations of a sado-masochistic cult
>that is growing ever more ludicrous in the eyes of the people,
>particularly among working men and women.
 
We have a situation where believiers in this rubbish present rationales
as to how such a story of jumping buckets of flesh _could_ be true, and
therefore _must_ be true, and it is up to us to prove that it is _not_
true.  The onus is on revisionists, you see, to demonstrate the falsehood.
Apparently the onus is NOT on anybody to prove that the stories are true.
So one can just invent a story, no matter how wild, and it's up to the
listener to disprove you.  If he cannot disprove you, then the story
must be true.  I see this "logic" being used over and over again in
these AR postings.  Readers can see this for themselves by just
browsing around AR.
 
I have tried a simple experiment and asked a few ordinary people about
the Holocaust.  First I said how terrible the Nazis were.  They agreed.
Then I said they did unbelievably evil things in the camps.  They agreed
again.  Then I mentioned torture, beatings, killings, and so on, and
eventually got around to the buckets of flesh that jumped.  My subjects
then just smiled, and a couple even laughed.  One looked puzzled and
just didn't believe that such a claim could ever have been made.  The
others probably assumed that I just made it up as a joke or something.
I assured them that such a story _had_ been claimed to be factual, and
then I mentioned the geysers of blood, etc. to demonstrate that a
number of such stories have been told.  They just couldn't believe it.
 
The story is indeed made up, but not by me.  I think that to believe in
such nonsense reflects a genuine sickness, and/or some kind of religious
dogmatic fervor of belief, in which any and all stories, no matter how
absurd, _must_ be believable and true.  Readers of these AR postings
from around the world have to seriously ask themselves if such a story
could possibly be true, who made it up, why, and above all _why_ is
such a story still being defended by people here in AR.  Ordinary,
mentally healthy people will not be taken in by such idiotic rubbish as
jumping buckets of flesh.
 
 
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Article 18175 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:30:59 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[Bradley Smith says...]
>For those of you who have had enough of Filip "Jumping-Buckets-
>of-Flesh" Mueller I give you:...
>Elie "Geysers-of-Blood" Wiesel...
>Elie reports that after the fighting at Kiev that a mass-killing
>of Jews took place in the Babi Yar ravine and that:...
>"Eyewitnesses say that for months after the killings the ground
>continued to spurt geysers of blood."
 
I have seen in AR a Jewish person defending this story, saying that
it _could_ be true.  He talked about gasses being trapped in human
flesh, about the ground being disturbed sometime afterwards, the
flesh being disturbed, gasses released and in turn by doing so the
blood being pumped out etc etc.  He gave what he thought was a
plausible rendering of events that would make the "geysers of blood"
believable and true and defensible.  Let each reader judge for himself
this thing, and judge the tale-spinner and the defenders of such tales.
 
I have said it before: such tales are the real crux of the Holocaust.
You can tell people that xxxx number of millions of Jews were gassed
and they don't bat an eyelid.  But if you talk about human lampshades,
or shrunken heads, or suchlike, and their imagination comes alive and
they get interested.  But when you talk about geysers of blood or
jumping buckets of flesh, they just laugh.  What makes Jews think that
people are so stupid that they will give credence to such rubbish?
 
The only people who seem to accept this garbage as factual are fanatical
true believing Jews.  I don't say this to ridicule Jews necessarily,
but to point out that religious belief, and paranoia, and persecution
mania, when taken to extremes, probably leads to this insanity of
belief in the most idiotic rubbish.  I think that many Jews who
promote such rubbish as factual history have lost their perspective
on what is real and what is not real.  I believe that many Jews, very
possibly the majority of Jews, do not accept such stories, and laugh
at such stories _privately_.  But they are afraid to speak out and
denounce such lies because their greater community won't allow any
criticism of the Holocaust.  This has got to change because the
spinners of such lies are placing the credibility of all Jews in
question.
 
 
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Article 18182 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Buckets of Flesh (was: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny)
Date: 26 Oct 1994 12:27:42 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <38lhvu$imu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

This whole insane thread revolves on one word used by Philip
Mueller, a Jewish survivor of Auschwitz. Both B. Smith (who
wrote that Mueller is worth less than an animal) and this
"murungu" nut, keep posting that Mueller, and therefore many
others survivors, cannot be trusted because Mueller told that
when SS men cut pieces from people that were just shot, and
threw them into a bucket, it "jumped about".

Now, they seem to agree that large chunks of muscles torn from
a person (or an animal) that was just shot, and may still be
alive, can twitch and move about. "murungu" said he witnessed
it himself. The only thing left for them is to cling to the
word "jump" which Mueller used. 

First, to the best of my knowledge, Mueller doesn't speak English.
In the film "Shoa", he talks in German. So, the word "jump" is
probably a translation. Moreover, "jump" can just be a bad
choice of word. He didn't say that the bucket actually lifted
itself off the floor. 

I can't believe I'm really debating these two clowns, who try to
reduce the whole history of the Holocaust to one word in one
sentence by one survivor of one camp... 

Is this what is meant by "revisionism is the great intellectual
adventure of the century"? Phew.


-Danny Keren.



Article 18206 of alt.revisionism:
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From: spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 27 Oct 1994 20:25:11 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <38p2b7$4c2@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
References:   <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gs1.sp.cs.cmu.edu

In article <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>,   wrote:
>We're talking, with this buckets thing,
>of whole buckets jumping in the air, and of _living_ human flesh within
>those buckets moving so much that the buckets actually take off again
>and again into the air.  THAT IS THE STORY WE HAVE BEEN TOLD.

Told by whom?  By Mu"ller?  I don't recall him saying anything about
"taking off again and again into the air".  The translation of his
story talks about "jumping about", which isn't nearly the same thing.

Were you told by "revisionists"?  If so, and their story doesn't
match Mu"ller's, then the responsibility for distortion lies with those
revisionists, doesn't it?

Or, if you can't point out a particular person who said the bucket was
"taking off again and again into the air", then the responsibility
lies with you.

So, who's responsible for the "taking off again and again into the air"
story?  Name someone, and document where they said it.

I also find it a bit interesting that you say in another article:

> The only people who seem to accept this garbage as factual are fanatical
> true believing Jews.  I don't say this to ridicule Jews necessarily,

when a number of the people here who have argued that Mu"ller's story
cannot be dismissed out of hand have been non-Jews.  Have you not
noticed these posts, or are you ignoring them, or were you just
assuming without evidence that everyone defending Mu"ller was Jewish?

John Ockerbloom
-- 
==========================================================================
ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu            1603 Beechwood Blvd., Pittsburgh PA 15217


Article 18207 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Muller & buckets "jumping about"
References: <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com> <38p2b7$4c2@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Oct29.113544.21208@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 94 11:35:44 GMT

In article <38p2b7$4c2@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom) writes:

>Told by whom?  By Mu"ller?  I don't recall him saying anything about
>"taking off again and again into the air".  The translation of his
>story talks about "jumping about", which isn't nearly the same thing.

Here is the relevant translation from the 1979 Stein and Day
edition:

Archive/File: holocaust/poland/auschwitz muller.006
Last-modified: 1993/09/16 
XRef: index auschwitz

   "From time to time SS doctors visited the crematorium, above all
   Hauptsturmfu"hrer Kitt and Obersturmfu"rher Weber.  During their
   visits it was just like working in a slaughterhouse.  Like cattle
   dealers they felt the thighs and calves of men and women who were
   still alive and selected what they called the best pieces before the
   victims were executed.  After their execution the chosen bodies were
   laid on a table.  The doctors proceeded to cut pieces of still warm
   flesh from thighs and calves and threw them into waiting receptacles.
   The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and
   contracting, making the bucket jump about.  At first we thought the
   Nazis planned to use human flesh for plastic operations on wounded
   soldiers.  Only later we learned that these buckets of living flesh
   were taken to the Institute of Hygiene at Rajsko where it was used in
   the laboratories for the growing of bacterial cultures.  Once I heard
   Oberscharfuhrer Ouackernack remark: 'Horseflesh would do, but in
   war-time it is too valuable for that sort of thing.'" (Mu"ller, 46-47)

From this, Bradley Smith postulates the lambada?

                              Work Cited

Mu"ller, Filip. Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers.
New York: Stein and Day, 1979

-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 18212 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 27 Oct 1994 16:14:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <38p1ma$73n@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
References: <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

In article <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>, murungu@delphi.com writes:

[lots of perosnal opinion]

Joe, why don't you sign your notes?  I was recently chastised for not
signing my notes, but I'm new here and you're not...Shouldn't you be
signing your name by now?


Article 18225 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Censorship of the Net?
Date: 27 Oct 1994 17:01:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <38p4g4$s1m@access4.digex.net>
References: <388nh0$fco@urvile.MSUS.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,   wrote:
>It is ironic to me.  I always see Jewish names and Jewish-led
>or Jewish-dominated groups railing against censorship when it
>comes to child pornography, or gay issues, or anti-white causes,
>but when it comes to ordinary political or social speech that
>Jewish people disagree with, all such individuals and groups fall
>silent or nod with approval to the suppression and censorship of
>same.

    This is, of course, another one of Murungu's blind-in-one-eye empty
assertions.  You will also see many Jewish names in the American Civil
Liberties Union, which fought for the right of Nazis to hold a march in
Skokie, IL, home of many Holocaust survivors.  In fact, I believe the
specific lawyer who handled the case was Jewish. 

    I also oppose censorship on principle, and feel that Murungu should be
as free to spout distortion, half-truth, and empty assertions as I am to
point out the fact that he's spouting distortion, half-truth, and empty
assertions.  His questions about soap and lampshades were answered by
several people, including myself.  He has yet to make any response at all,
let alone a serious one.

    Not that I expect it to do any good, but emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18226 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Landpost" and his Threats (was: Re: Aussrotten)
Date: 27 Oct 1994 10:21:56 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <38nv04$6jf@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <38ceng$e7q@access4.digex.net> <38d9ha$eeq@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:
# dzk@cs.brown edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

["landpost's" threats deleted]

## What do you expect? You thought Nazis have changed? Their basic
## tactics have remained the same.
 
# How would Landpost's statement compare with the lurid and violent
# death threats received by Dan Gannon, Bradley Smith, and the
# researchers at the Institute for Historical Review?  

Ok, two comments on that.

1) Since you, Gannon, and Smith have all posted blatant lies on 
   this newsgroup and elsewhere, why should I believe what you 
   wrote above?

2) Sometime ago, someone posted an excerpt from the "Spotlight",
   a rag published by the "Liberty Lobby". The "Spotlight"
   article discussed at length the battle between the "Liberty
   Lobby" and the IHR. It also said that some "leading
   revisionists" have exchanged punches and even threatened
   each others with guns.

I am very much inclined to believe that, if you're not just
plain lying like you always do, these "attacks" and "threats"
against IHR people are made by people associated with the
"Liberty Lobby". That is obviously one possibility.

I said before, and I say again: Nazis have no problem beating
the crap out of other Nazis, or killing other Nazis. Remember
what one-balled Shitler did to his pal Rohm.


-Danny Keren.



Article 18231 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!misrael
From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 27 Oct 1994 09:07:38 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <38nqkq$3fb@riscsm.scripps.edu>
References: <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: struct.scripps.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In article , golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) writes:

> What Mr. Mueller said -- in a single portion of his much longer
> description of the camps -- was that he saw freshly-stripped flesh placed
> in a bucket and that the flesh caused the bucket to "jump about."  (I am
> sure someone can post the full quote, since I don't have it handy.)

   Did he even say "about"?

> He NEVER said "jumping buckets of flesh."
> He NEVER said "the Nazis had to chase the leaping bucket around the lab."
> He NEVER said "jumping in the air."
> He NEVER said "the living human flesh made the buckets take off again and
> again."

   What about the lambada?  I'm *sure* somebody said something about 
doing the lambada.

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


Article 18234 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 27 Oct 1994 12:48:15 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <38o7if$kpd@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,   wrote:

>I am writing this in response to the avalanche of hate and rage that
>has been posted by exterminationists 

How come I always seem to be missing the fun stuff?

					Richard Schultz


Article 18237 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Censorship of the Net?
Date: 27 Oct 1994 13:29:19 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <38o9vf$g4h@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <388nh0$fco@urvile.MSUS.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

I'v read through "murungu's" long rant and, as usual, it has no
foundation in fact.

Just look at this newsgroup. We have seen here "revisionists" use
expressions like "Jewish trash", "Jewish slime", etc; we have
seen them call for another Holocaust, in which all Jews will be 
murdered; one "revisionist" e-mailed a Jewish poster that he hopes
he will be gassed. One other "revisionist" suggested that I be
gassed with CO. Another writes that he greatly admires Adolf Hitler,
and would still deeply admire him even if the Nazis would have 
killed 60 million Jews. And so on.

So, who's the racist here?


-Danny Keren.








Article 18240 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Censorship of the Net?
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 94 07:07:11 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 190
Message-ID: 
References: <388nh0$fco@urvile.MSUS.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Wayne McGuire 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[quoted by Wayne McGuire...]
>//Things are heating up even more on the Internet.  Recently, the
>//Simon Wiesenthal Center, a Los Angeles institute devoted to
>//exposing anti-Semitism, submitted a summary of a massive dossier
>//of cyberspace hatemongering to the FCC...
>//Says Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate
>//dean of the Wiesenthal Center: "It may be time for the FCC to place a
>//cop on the information superhighway."
 
[Wayne McGuire says...]
>Uh oh. Another major Jewish group has shown an interest in
>censoring free speech on the Internet. The other major group is
>the ADL.
 
I saw the HOC article also.  A "dossier" compiled and submitted to
the FCC.  And "it may be time [for]...a cop on the information
superhighway".  The FCC and the mass media don't understand that
the Wiesenthal Center and the ADL are not independent and
well-meaning organizations serving the public, but rather are
high-pressure groups with agendas of their own.  Or maybe they
DO understand that, but are too cowardly to stand up to them.
 
Jewish people and Jewish groups seem to think that censorship and
suppression will stop or preempt the old bugaboo "anti-semitism"
from surfacing.  They are quite happy and even eager to stomp out
our intellectual freedom to achieve this end.  What they don't
realize is that such moves to do away with our freedom LEADS to
anti-Jewish feelings.  Which leads to more Jewish efforts to stomp
out more of our freedoms to express ourselves.  A vicious circle
develops which leads to greater levels of anti-Jewish feeling and
greater efforts on the part of Jews to eliminate freedom.
 
It is ironic to me.  I always see Jewish names and Jewish-led
or Jewish-dominated groups railing against censorship when it
comes to child pornography, or gay issues, or anti-white causes,
but when it comes to ordinary political or social speech that
Jewish people disagree with, all such individuals and groups fall
silent or nod with approval to the suppression and censorship of
same.
 
[quoted by Wayne from a different article...]
>//On the Net, messages aren't routed through a
>//command central; instead they travel freely throughout the
>//web of interconnected computers. So any regulation must come
>//from the individual institutions, often universities, that
>//enable people to tap into the system. Simply put, anything
>//goes....
 
I think we can be sure that, behind-the-scenes as usual, the
Wiesenthal Center and the ADL and no doubt many other Jewish
organizations and individuals, are applying immense pressure
on the various services, such as the universities, GEnie, Delphi,
Compuserve, AOL, and so on, to crack down on "hatemongers" who
have accounts there.  To cancel or limit their accounts if they
upload opinions to the internet that Jews disagree with.  I have
heard that this has in fact already happened to a number of
individuals here and there.  We should be sitting up and taking
notice of this activity.  So should the mass media and the State.
But more on that below.
 
>"The war is far from over"--is that what the ADL intends to do?
>Wage a war against free speech on the Internet?
 
Yes.  To the ADL and other Jewish groups, free speech is great
when it is given to child pornographers and homosexual groups,
but terrible when applied to individuals or groups who express
viewpoints the Jewish people do not like expressed.
 
>This is the same organization that engaged in illegal spying on
>thousands of Americans, some of it for the state of Israel.
 
And that has illegally obtained confidential information from
police agencies here and there in the United States, most
recently from the police department in San Francisco.  Such
"dossiers" formed from the information illegally obtained consists
of profiles and personal information on "hate" groups and individuals
belonging to or supporting those groups.  What is the purpose of
compiling that information?  To someday have them all arrested, or
shot, or whatever, as happened in the USSR and the countries it
conquered?  Is some kind of roundup being planned?  The feds
did not go after the ADL on that one like they should have, and
merely levied a tiny fine - a fine that was used to further
Holocaust propaganda.  A huge joke how our own government deals
with illegal acts when they are committed by Jewish terror
organizations like the ADL.
 
>What do you want to bet that the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the
>ADL had nothing to say about the many hundreds of hate messages
>posted on the net by religious Jews who are followers of Rabbi
>Meir Kahane. I have seen many Jews bash Christianity, Islam,
>Arabs and blacks in the most vicious way. But of course Howard
>Stern can get away with this kind of hate language before an
>audience of millions without a peep from the Jewish
>establishment.
 
I too have seen countless instances of Jewish hatemongering
and the most hurtful and hateful things imaginable coming from
the mouths and keyboards of Jewish extremists on bulletin boards.
But you see, when Jewish people do it, it gets re-labelled as
free speech and free opinion.
 
I think the key here is that Jews get to do the actual definitions of
what is "hate" and what is not "hate".  They also get to define what
constitutes "community values" and what does not.  The "community
values" catchphrase is now being used on various computer services
as the means to monitor and control "hate".
 
>If the Jewish establishment in the U.S. undertakes a campaign to
>destroy the freedom of the Internet, they will represent a much
>greater threat than the revisionists.
 
And the "threat" from the revisionists is that the revisionists
talk about things like the Jewish campaign to limit our freedoms
on the Internet and elsewhere.  You see how neat and tidy it all is?
Jews have to censor "haters" and everybody else because the "haters"
are talking about the censorship.  And remember that every non-Jew
is seen as a real or potential "hater", as a real or potential
"anti-semite".  Some Jews even see their fellow Jews as real or
potential "self-hating Jews".  The paranoia and hysteria has
reached absurd heights [or depths].
 
>As it stands now, the outlawing of revisionism in some countries
>outside the U.S. represents a form of Stalinism pure and simple.
>The burning issue is going to turn from revisionism to the
>censorship of free speech, thanks to the nasty totalitarians who
>have lobbied for these repressive policies.
 
European countries, and Canada, do not have the speech protections
that we have in the United States in our constitution's 1st amendment.
This is why it has been relatively easy for Jewish groups in these
countries to get totalitarian, suppressive laws enacted along this
line.  But there are ways and means of getting around the 1st here in
America too, such as by high-pressure tactics on services and the
government to "voluntarily" enforce political correctness in all
areas including, above all, the Holocaust.
 
>When you can go to jail for merely questioning whether or not a
>certain historical event happened, you are deep into
>Bolshevism-land. These people need to be fought. If they try to
>lay their heavy hand on the most libertarian medium in human
>history, they will probably encounter an intifada in which they
>will be "shaken off."
 
To fight them is "hate".  To resist them is "anti-semitism".
To defend free spech and intellectual freedom is "insensitive"
to Jewish wants and desires.  How many people do you know who
are willing to be so labelled?  How many people do you know who
give a damn at all?  Not many now, but the number is growing.
The greater the repression, the greater the resistance that is
generated from people who now are indifferent.
 
>Everyone here should read the chapter entitled "Culture as
>Propaganda" in Richard Pipes' magnificent _Russia Under the
>Bolsehvik Regime_ for insight into the kind of psychology that
>makes groups like the ADL tick.
 
I have the book and have read the chapter in question.  Pipes
discusses, interestingly, how the Bolsheviks instituted control
over the press, culture, and even imposed Bolshevik philosphophy
on education, child-rearing, abortion, and so on.  The parallels
with our own societal changes in recent years is amazing.  And
the people making the changes in both countries appear to often
have the same Jewish background.  THIS is what actually leads to
"anti-semitism".  Jewish people just cannot seem to grasp this.
 
We already have a situation now in the United States where the
press and academia are marching in virtual lockstep with the
State, especially over issues like the Holocaust and what is to
constitute free speech and intellectual freedom.  It is scary.
 
Pipes is a terrific author.  I have his "THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION"
and am trying to find "RUSSIA UNDER THE OLD REGIME".  I am always
trying to find genuine, factual historical studies like his, but
this is getting more and more difficult year by year.  A certain
dogma is reigning in history and few historians are willing to
break certain taboos.
 
 
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Article 18247 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Acceptance of documents
Date: 27 Oct 1994 12:28:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <38okg0$hc2@access4.digex.net>
References: <38c3bm$k74@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <26OCT199421345764@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <26OCT199421345764@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
Daniel Mittleman  wrote:
>In article , murungu@delphi.com writes...
>    Stein is saying: no!
>>let's just accept and blindingly believe [so long as it supports the
>>Holocaust dogma]!
>
>    I don't think he is saying that.  Do you have a statement from him
>    which says that - or anything which could be interpreted to mean that? 
>    If so, you ought to print it here as I will remain very dubious of this
>    assertion unless I actually see evidence for it.


    Apparently Murungu learned to read at the same school Tim McCarthy and
Michael Hoffman went to.  What I said was that all documents should be
accepted as genuine regardless of whose position they support, unless
there are specific reasons identified to reject them. 

    Dan Gannon was absolutely correct on one point he raised - if it turns
out that the Franke-Gricksch report does contain an anachronism (though
this has not yet been firmly established), then that would be solid reason
to discard it as a forgery.  However, unlike Greg Raven, I don't think the
fact that something came from the Soviets is prima facie evidence of
forgery. 

    I accept the letter from Just to Rauff, and I accept the directive
from the SS Economic Administration to reduce the death rate.  I see no
inconsistency between keeping useful slaves alive and killing people
elsewhere referred to as "useless eaters."  Deniers bring up the latter
document as evidence for their case, but call the former a forgery with no
other evidence than "it came from the Soviets." 

    I accept as genuine the early documents which show the Nazis looking
for a deportation/emigration solution.  I see no contradiction between
those early discussions and the later acceptance of extermination as the
only feasible means of solving "the Jewish question." 

    The deniers make heavy use of probabilistic arguments of the form "It
would have been better for the Nazis to do X if they were really out to
kill the Jews; since they didn't do X, this proves they weren't out to
kill the Jews."  However, they do not recognize that a similar
probabilistic argument is available with regard to forged documents.  It
would have been better for the Soviets to forge an unambiguous order from
Himmler to Hoess to commence gassing, as Himmler committed suicide and
(according to the deniers) Hoess was tortured and brainwashed into
confessing to things that never happened, so it would seem he could just
as easily have been coerced into agreeing that the forged order was
genuine.  Or they could have slipped a clearly-labeled "Plans for
Homicidal Gas Chamber" blueprint into the Auschwitz Bauleitung documents. 
Piece of cake for those master Soviet forgers, I should think.

    I'm still waiting for Murungu to make a substantive, serious response
to anything I've posted.  It seems all he can do is yell "It's not true!" 
and distort my words.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18252 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user
From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 22:34:45 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>, murungu@delphi.com wrote:

>"jumping buckets"
>"jumping buckets of flesh"
> We're talking, with this buckets thing,
> of whole buckets jumping in the air, and of _living_ human flesh within
> those buckets moving so much that the buckets actually take off again
> and again into the air.  THAT IS THE STORY WE HAVE BEEN TOLD.

Yes, and THAT IS THE STORY YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD BY BRADLEY R. SMITH.  Filip
Mueller never used the words "jumping buckets of flesh."  He never said
"the buckets jumped off the ground" or "the living human flesh within the
buckets made the buckets take off again and again into the air."

Do you understand that?  HE NEVER SAID IT.

What Mr. Mueller said -- in a single portion of his much longer
description of the camps -- was that he saw freshly-stripped flesh placed
in a bucket and that the flesh caused the bucket to "jump about."  (I am
sure someone can post the full quote, since I don't have it handy.)

He NEVER said "jumping buckets of flesh."
He NEVER said "the Nazis had to chase the leaping bucket around the lab."
He NEVER said "jumping in the air."
He NEVER said "the living human flesh made the buckets take off again and
again."

The first two of the above statements are the creations of Bradley R.
Smith, one of which you have repeated here.

The last two of the above statements are your OWN creation.

They have NOTHING to do with what Filip Mueller described.

Do you understand this, Mr. "murungu"?

Now, if you will post the entire Mueller quote in context and explain why
THAT must be a lie, without resorting to Smith's or your own exaggerated
interpretations, then perhaps that part of Mr. Mueller's story bears
re-examination.  But so far, all you're suggesting is that we discard
Smith's and your exaggerations.  Fine.  I reject them.  I denounce them as
lies.  I have no reason to disbelieve Mueller's description of what he
saw.

Posted and emailed.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 18265 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!caen!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu's message of 28 Oct 94 00:52:37 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	 <1994Oct28.005237.32500@miavx1>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 23:02:15 GMT
Lines: 41


From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
>I've still not seen any 'revisionists' provide any convincing
>reasons why a thousand or so corpses in a shallow grave 
>would not heave and throw up earth, often with human remains. 

Over 30,000 corpses. Even according to the Einsatzgruppen's own
reports back to Berlin:

--------------------
Einsatzgruppe C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941

--------------------

(Babi Yar being the ravine just outside of Kiev where the actual
killings took place.)

30,000 human corpses is something over 3 million pounds.

3+Million pounds of dead, rotting bodies in a shallow grave.

Think about what becomes of just a few ounces of rotting meat, which
has most of the more liquid portions removed, forgotten in your
refrigerator. Now try to imagine 3 million pounds of it heaped into a
shallow grave and exposed to the elements, mixed with rain, etc.

I'm *sure* this is a situation our revisionist friends are most
familiar with and can tell us all about...NOT!

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18266 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!caen!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Greg Raven: "Revisionist Scholar" in Actionnex
In-Reply-To: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu's message of 28 Oct 94 01:30:34 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <38c3bm$k74@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
	<1994Oct28.013034.32505@miavx1>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 23:03:57 GMT
Lines: 15


From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
>It also might help if revisionists actually _had_ a thesis 
>to support.

They do, it goes:

	The holocaust didn't happen and the victims deserved
	what they got.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18268 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven: "Revisionist Scholar" in Action
Date: 26 Oct 1994 21:34 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 105
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <26OCT199421345764@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <38c3bm$k74@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes...

>Nonsense.  What Mr Raven says is that we have to look carefully at
>documents, not just blindly and believingly accept any and every
>document that is thrown at us.  We have to know if the original
>document is available rather than just a copy or duplicate.  

    Agreed.

    >We have
>to know if it is available to ALL researchers rather than just
>"approved" researchers who give the stamp of approval to the Holocaust
>story while revisionist researchers trying to get access to these
>documents may find the doors slammed in their faces.

    Which documents have not been made available to which researchers?

>We have to know the context of the document.  For example, there are
>documents that "prove" the extermination of Jews in the Crimea and
>that state that the Crimea is now "Jew-free".  Such documents were
>used at the trial of Field Marshal von Manstein to show him as a
>war criminal.  His lawyer did his research and proved that the Crimea
>had large and thriving Jewish communities there that were virtually
>untouched during the entire occupation by the Nazis.  So what is the
>value of such documents if they are false? [source: "MANSTEIN: HIS
>CAMPAIGNS AND HIS TRIAL" by R. T. Paget].  Primary documentation is
>important as evidence but that doesn't mean that the content of same
>is necessarily factual or honest.

    Someone who knows the case and the book care to comment on this?

>Then you have multi-page documents wherein critical pages or critical
>passages are apparently interpolations, where a different typewriter
>was used or there have been alterations to the text.  Dr Staglich's
>"THE AUSCHWITZ MYTH" explores these kinds of documents that are
>sometimes used by exterminationists in which no mention is made of
>the alterations or interpolations.  This is why it is important to
>be able to have the _original_ documents to hand.

    This seems reasonable, although good photocopies of originals are
    sufficient for most purposes and it is important to protect originals. 
    Seems to me that only research questions that absolutely need original
    documentation should have access to them.

>It is also important to look at ALL the documentary evidence, not
>to just pick and choose to find the most condemning documents while
>ignoring everything else that doesn't support the Holocaust story.

    Absolutely true.  What are some examples of this happeneing?

>Mr Raven is saying: let's be careful and let's ask questions, like
>all researchers and historians are meant to.  

    Well, maybe.  I find him to be rather disengeneous at times under the
    guise of asking such questions.  But I agree with the sentiment that it
    is important to ask questions and nothing should be taboo.  I bet most
    everyone reading this newsgroup would agree with that too.

    Stein is saying: no!
>let's just accept and blindingly believe [so long as it supports the
>Holocaust dogma]!

    I don't think he is saying that.  Do you have a statement from him
    which says that - or anything which could be interpreted to mean that? 
    If so, you ought to print it here as I will remain very dubious of this
    assertion unless I actually see evidence for it.

>The Holocaust is an historical event that needs to be subject to the
>same standards of research, care, and logic as any other historical
>event.  

    Agreed.  In fact, again, I think most everyone will agree with this.

    >And Jews should not have a monopoly on that research.  

    Might you offer a piece of evidence which supports the assertion that
    Jews do have a monopoly on this research?  Tell you what, I will offer
    you a piece of evidence which shows your assertion not to be true:  Ken
    McVay is not Jewish.  He stated in this conference that before he began
    his current work he didn't even think he knew anyone Jewish.  And yet
    he is working hard and has assembled a remarkable database of evidence
    pertaining to the holocaust.  Would you care to align this evidence
    with your assertion?

    >And
>methods of terror should not be applied towards those who want to
>ask critical, taboo-bashing questions.

    Agreed.  Would you provide a piece of evidence to support methods of
    terror being applied towards those who are asking criticial taboo
    bashing questions?

    Note, protests of Irving's speeches are not such evidence.  [1] it is
    far from conclusive that those protests are methods of terror rather
    than people exercising free speech, and [2] Irving does not ask
    "critical" questions.  His work is extremely sloppy and contains well
    documented lies.  

    But if you have evidence of people really asking critical questions
    being quashed, by all means submit it.  I will oppose those who are
    trying to stop real legitimate research.  And I bet most others in this
    conference will as well.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18271 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.004355.32499@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 00:43:55 -0500
References:     
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 55

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
>  
> We have a situation where believiers in this rubbish present rationales
> as to how such a story of jumping buckets of flesh _could_ be true, and
> therefore _must_ be true, and it is up to us to prove that it is _not_
> true.  The onus is on revisionists, you see, to demonstrate the falsehood.
> Apparently the onus is NOT on anybody to prove that the stories are true.
> So one can just invent a story, no matter how wild, and it's up to the
> listener to disprove you.  If he cannot disprove you, then the story
> must be true.  I see this "logic" being used over and over again in
> these AR postings.  Readers can see this for themselves by just
> browsing around AR.

Look, I assume this "jumping buckets" story is your attempt to 
disprove what Mu"ller says he saw.  The conclusion that you're 
grasping for is that Mu"ller did _not_ see medical doctors remove
tissue from recently killed inmates for use in experiments.

Your whole argument rests on the translation of Mu"ller's 
testimony that mentions the jumping buckets.

Is this a correct characterization of your claim?  

Of course, there's one thing you've forgotten:

in his Diary, Dr. Kremer discusses removing organs from 
recently killed inmates for use in experiments, on a day
by day basis.  

so then, all of these complaints about Mu"ller's testimony 
are a bit silly, aren't they?  Even if we throw every word
that Mu"ller ever said into the wastecan, we still have
Kremer's testimony and diary.  We also still have Ho"ss, 
Broad, Stark, Eichmann, Valliant-Courtier, and countless 
others.  

All of this obsessing about one detail of one part of
one person's testimony is ridiculous.  A more telling analysis
would show gross errors and inconsistencies between all 
the witnesses.  In all the time I've been sifting through
this nonsense, I've never seen any systematic analysis of the
available evidence.  

rather, you goofs have simply screamed about one or two things, 
whether it be Elie Wiesel's story about Babi Yar or Mu"ller's 
apparent hyperbole when describing medical dissection of 
murdered inmates.

\
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon	     "The world is on its elbows and knees;
Miami University	It has forgotten the message and worships
Ohio 45056			the creeds!"
WHUT R U LOOKIN AT?			-- Matt Johnson
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18272 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.005237.32500@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 00:52:37 -0500
References:     
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 46

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
>  
> I have seen in AR a Jewish person defending this story, saying that
> it _could_ be true.  

Out of curiosity, how did you _know_ this person was Jewish?
did you use Jim Bowery's method of analysis?

I've still not seen any 'revisionists' provide any convincing
reasons why a thousand or so corpses in a shallow grave 
would not heave and throw up earth, often with human remains. 

Particularly after they began to rot....

> The only people who seem to accept this garbage as factual are fanatical
> true believing Jews.  I don't say this to ridicule Jews necessarily,

evidence please?  

I happen to believe this story, and just by coincidence 
I'm not Jewish either.

> on what is real and what is not real.  I believe that many Jews, very
> possibly the majority of Jews, do not accept such stories, and laugh
> at such stories _privately_.  But they are afraid to speak out and
> denounce such lies because their greater community won't allow any
> criticism of the Holocaust.  This has got to change because the
> spinners of such lies are placing the credibility of all Jews in
> question.

Oh yes, of course!  It's another INTERNATIONAL JEWISH CONSPIRACY!
this one blinkers and coerces other Jews from seeking the
truth!

gimme a break!

You think that _no_one_ out of millions involved in such 
a thing would _not_ come forward?


=======================================================================
Brian Harmon	     "The world is on its elbows and knees;
Miami University	It has forgotten the message and worships
Ohio 45056			the creeds!"
WHUT R U LOOKIN AT?			-- Matt Johnson
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18273 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.005648.32501@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 00:56:48 -0500
References:     <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 31

In article <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>, murungu@delphi.com writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mr. Murungu comments on the lifelike activity of muscles
in recently dead animals:

> I have seen dead snakes, after having been killed, still curling or
> uncurling now and then.  I have to admit, it gave me a momentary fright
> when I first witnessed this.  I had shot a very large poisonous snake
> and when it started moving I thought for a second that I might have
> missed and that it might wreak vengeance on me.  Later it turned out
> to have been non-poisonous and I knew I needed to brush up on my
> snake identification.  But I did not go around exaggerating the size
> of the snake, or talking about "jumping buckets" of snakes, or anything
> else absurd.  If I did, I would have rightly been ridiculed and called
> a liar. 

Then again, you did not also witness the murder of 
thousands of people, which might have a pretty adverse
affect on your ability to be rational.

You also did not write the story down in a different
language, and then have someone else (other than you)
translate it.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon	     "The world is on its elbows and knees;
Miami University	It has forgotten the message and worships
Ohio 45056			the creeds!"
WHUT R U LOOKIN AT?			-- Matt Johnson
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18274 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.012539.32504@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 01:25:38 -0500
References:   
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 22

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
>  
> I am writing this in response to the avalanche of hate and rage that
> has been posted by exterminationists in response to the information
> on McVey cashing in on the Holocaust that I had earlier posted. 

Of course, you can _document_ these claims, right?
Unless you do, this is just _another_ unsupported accusation.

> The Holocaust trough is big and getting bigger because entire national
> governments are putting taxpayer money into it [eg the Holocaust
> Museum in Washington's largesse received from the US government, and
> the taxpayer funded "education" in our schools in which SCHINDLER'S
> LIST is force-fed to our children].  More and more snouts are appearing
> at the trough and slurping pig-like at it.  McVey is just another of
> the many snouts to be seen there, and indeed a very small snout at that.

Comparing McVay and historians to pigs, eh?  

Sounds pretty hateful to me.

Brian


Article 18275 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven: "Revisionist Scholar" in Actionnex
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.013034.32505@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 01:30:34 -0500
References: <38c3bm$k74@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 22

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
>  
> It is also important to look at ALL the documentary evidence, not
> to just pick and choose to find the most condemning documents while
> ignoring everything else that doesn't support the Holocaust story.

I think that's a splendid idea.

I tell you what, Mr. murungu, why don't you collect the 
documents that show that the Holocaust did not happen. 

Post them here, and we'll discuss them.
 
I think it's high time the 'revisionists' provided some
data that support their thesis rather than simply taking
pot shots at the existing body of evidence.

It also might help if revisionists actually _had_ a thesis 
to support.

Brian Harmon
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18276 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Landpost" and his Threats (was: Re: Aussrotten)
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.013258.32506@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 01:32:58 -0500
References:     
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 28

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
> [Danny Keren says...]
>> wrote:
>># McFee, only an *sshole like you would step-in to our debate with a
>># statement like that. I have a long memory McFee, and we will meet in
>># person one day.
>  
>>What do you expect? You thought Nazis have changed? Their basic
>>tactics have remained the same.
>  
> How would Landpost's statement compare with the lurid and violent
> death threats received by Dan Gannon, Bradley Smith, and the
> researchers at the Institute for Historical Review?  Has Landpost
> actually slashed tires or fire-bombed as has been done to the IHR
> and IHR staff's personal vehicles?  Have any of the prominent


Can you make _any_ connections between anyone in this
newsgroup and the various thugs that have attacked the
IHR?  

I doubt it.

It's just another one of your fact free unsupported accusations
that we've all come to know and love.

Brian Harmon
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18282 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!udel!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 26 Oct 1994 20:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 91
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <26OCT199420570704@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes...

>The Wiesenthal Centre plays around with how many millions?  Holocaust
>museums around the country and around the world rake in how much money?
>Spielberg has pulled in how many millions from his trashy SCHINDLERS LIST?

    Ah, Schindler's List may be a lot of things, but outside this
    conference I haven't noticed anyone call it "trashy".  I have noticed
    that it won Best Picture at the Oscars.  I have noticed that most
    reviewers gave it the highest number of stars given out.  I have
    noticed at least one reviewer refer to it cinematically as "the perfect
    movie."

    Might there just be a wee bit of bias in your evaluation of what is and
    what is not trash?

>The Holocaust trough is big and getting bigger because entire national
>governments are putting taxpayer money into it [eg the Holocaust
>Museum in Washington's largesse received from the US government, and
>the taxpayer funded "education" in our schools in which SCHINDLER'S
>LIST is force-fed to our children].  

    Pray tell, how much money has the federal government put into showing
    Schindler's List in our schools?  Can you find a cite which attaches
    dollars to this assertion?  I suspect not as most all public education
    is paid by the states.  (Though I admit this is splitting hairs as if
    you are upset about tjhe Feds doing it you will be upset about the
    states doing it.)  Further, can you tell me some public schools which
    are showing the movie?  Personally I am not aware of any, though I
    suspect there may be some.

    >More and more snouts are appearing
>at the trough and slurping pig-like at it.  McVey is just another of
>the many snouts to be seen there, and indeed a very small snout at that.

    Yes, he is a very small snout :>  That was the point several other
    people made here too.  Glad you agree.

>Then there are the revisionists.  Every one of them could make MUCH
>more in private life.  Some of them have turned to revisionism full time

    Yeah, Fred could finally get that engineering degree he always wanted
    :>

>kind of idealism because it has to be done and none of our "scholars"
>and "historians" in the establishment or in academia has the guts to
>do it - to expose the Holocaust lies and to tell the truth about the
>Holocaust, i.e. what REALLY happened.

    Oh, if there were a thread of truth to this "revisionism" there would
    be plenty of scholars looking to make names for themselves in it.  But
    you know how far out this "revisionism" stuff you preach is?  It is so
    far out not even the National Enquirer and their ilk pay it much
    attention!

>The revisionists are under constant threat, harassment and persecution.
>Their work and the pressure applied against them put tremendous stress
>on themselves and their families.  Far from cashing in, they often lead
>lives at the edge of poverty.

    This may be more a reflection of their imbalance as human beings (which
    seems to correlate with holocaust denial) than to the denial itself. 
    Several of your friends out there, murungu - if that is your real name,
    are an apple short of a fruitplate.

>I realize that this is getting off subject.  I also realize that a
>discussion of money is not really relevant to the veracity or truth
>of the statements made by this or that person; the truth of such will
>always stand or fall on the basis of what is stated, not on any other
>factor.  If a McVey is paid thousands to upload his attacks here on
>AR, that is irrelevant to the truth or untruth of the attacks.  I
>really should have made that point earlier.

    Ah, sanity emerges through at last!  I knew it was there somewhere.

>I realize that I have broken a sacred taboo in discussing the money
>that Jews and others are making out of the Holocaust.  I was not
>supposed to have mentioned the Holocaust gravy train and the Holocaust
>trough; the goyim are not supposed to know about these things.  I
>humbly apologise for having broken the taboo.

    Your sarcasm aside, you are welcome to raise this point if you
    genuinely feel it is impacting people's perception of the holocaust. 
    But it would be helpful if you made your point with evidence rather
    than with hollow rhetoric.

    And as far as goyim not supposed ot know about these things:  Ken McVay
    is about as goyim as you can get.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18296 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
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Murungu puts the Holocaust "business" in perspective, but fails to 
mention the biggest beneficiary of them all, Israel.

                Ross Vicksell


Article 18299 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Subject: Re: "Landpost" and his Threats (was: Re: Aussrotten)
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Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 02:24:00 GMT
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In a previous article, murungu@delphi.com () says:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
>[Danny Keren says...]
>>Gordon McFee exposes a "revisionist scholar", our dear "landpost",
>>as an idiot, a racist and a liar, and "landpost" responds by
>>threatening him.

"landpost" was unable to cope with the truth--I take it you are prepared
to continue that tradition.


> 
>Why is every person who discusses the Holocaust critically, labeled
>as a "revisionist scholar".  Who here in AR has actually made the
>statement that they are a "revisionist scholar" rather than just an
>ordinary person interested in this subject?  Is every exterminationist
>here an "exterminationist/Holocaust scholar"?

Can't speak for anyone else, but in landpost's case, he purported to be
able to understand German (he couldn't); he purported to know the
chronology of the Himmler Posen speeches (he didn't); and so on.  Landpost
purported to be a scholar; he proved he was not.

> 
>Of course, nobody here has claimed to be a "scholar".  But you
>dishonestly imply that they have made such claims.  Then you search
>out imperfections or non-scholarly language to ridicule and vilify them.

One seeks out only blatant untruths, deliberate lies and obvious racism. 
It is not necessary to search out subtelties.

> 
>Why are you so sleazy and dishonest about this?  What you don't understand
>is that readers of such attacks are beginning to see ALL Jews as being
>similarly sleazy when it comes to discussions on the Holocaust.  You are
>giving all Jews a bad name.

What do I care?  I'm not Jewish--I'm just one of their lackeys!

--
Gordon McFee ai292

I'll write no line before its time!


Article 18300 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Subject: Re: "Landpost" and his Threats (was: Re: Aussrotten)
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Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 02:31:33 GMT
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In a previous article, murungu@delphi.com () says:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Speaking of paranoid, could you stop already with these juvenile PGP
messages?  Dick Tracy you ain't!

> 
> 
>[Gordon McFee says, concerning Keren's comments on Landpost...]
>>That's the way of the bully, Danny, if you can't beat him, beat him up.
>>I'll bet Tim and the rest of the boys are pretty good at kicking the shit
>>out of 9 year old Jewish boys and girls (as long as they outnumber them 12
>>to 1).  He's proven his brain is enfeebled; now he would threaten me
>>physical violence.  He can spout all he wants.
> 
>Does Mr McFee have any comments about the terror bombings of the IHR,
>the physical beatings, by Jews, of Zundel, Faurisson, and Cole?  The
>near-continual death threats received by IHR staff, Bradley Smith,
>and just about every other revisionist?  Mr McFee would not be engaging
>in a double standard, would he?

Mr McFee engage in a double standard?  I would NEVER do such a thing.  Do
I have any comments about the bullshit you mention in the preceding
paragraph?  Yes, my comment is "bullshit".  The beating of Faurisson is
well documented as BS.  Zundel?  Don't make me laugh, yahoo, I have seen
Zundel and his blue-helmeted goons in Toronto; no one has beaten him--he
is always surrounded by tons of his boys (hey! that rhymes with goys!).

> 
>When Jews do it to the nth degree, and in excess, and continually,
>we are supposed to say nothing but just nod in approval.  We are even
>supposed to pretend that Jews don't do such things.  Jews are nice,
>you see.  The Jewish Defense Organization must be something imaginary,
>right?  When the JDO attacks, beats, bombs, or whatever, maybe they
>are really not the JDO and really not Jews.  It is happening all around
>the world and we are supposed to pretend that it isn't happening and we
>aren't supposed to talk about it.

No one excuses any physical excesses that any side might enage in.  But
the difference is landpost, through the safety of the Internet, was
threatening me physical attack simply because I (correctly) called him an
Arschloch.  How's that for a double standard?

> 
>Discussing the Jewish terror campaign against revisionists is yet
>another taboo that we are not supposed to break.

So shut up already!

--
Gordon McFee ai292

I'll write no line before its time!


Article 18346 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Scholarly standards
Date: 30 Oct 1994 15:33 MST
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In article <390ot7$ebe@access4.digex.net>, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes...

>    Speaking strictly for myself, I expect to be held to the scholarly
>standards of accurate in-context quotation, honest interpretation of
>sources, willingness to address all documents and evidence regardless of
>whether something supports my position or not, willingness to produce
>documentation for my statements including the normal academic conventions
>of author, title, publisher, year, and page, and offering evidence and
>detailing the reasoning used to reach conclusions. 

    I am willing to be held to these standards too.  While my academic area
    of expertise is not the holocaust, I came to this group from
    sci.skeptic and I know enough about research to differentiate good work
    from garbage.  I pledge to support good work here, and expose work that
    is garbage.  I expect you all to hold me to such standards as well.

    Any deniers out there willing to share this pledge?

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18359 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 30 Oct 1994 18:10:14 -0500
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In article <1994Oct28.005237.32500@miavx1>,
Raskolnikov  wrote:
>In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
>>  
>> I have seen in AR a Jewish person defending this story, saying that
>> it _could_ be true.  
>
>Out of curiosity, how did you _know_ this person was Jewish?
>did you use Jim Bowery's method of analysis?

    Out of fairness to Murungu, he of course meant me, and given not only 
my name but the fact that I'm currently tormenting Michael Hoffman over 
his Hebrew, I think Murungu's conclusion is justified, and moreover, 
correct.  (Michael Hoffman and Rick Savage would disagree, calling me a 
Khazar, although there is a rather obvious reason why this could not be 
entirely true.)

    Completely unjustified, however, was Murungu's apparent assumption
that the witness who told Wiesel that he had seen "geysers of blood" was
Jewish.  Indeed, given the slaughter, it would seem that the person who
told Wiesel that was almost certainly *not* Jewish. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18360 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Murungu finds unbelievable
Supersedes: <390mmu$d5r@access4.digex.net>
Date: 30 Oct 1994 18:15:05 -0500
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In article <5e01iPt.murungu@delphi.com>,   wrote:
>[Michael Stein says...]
>>Obviously, buckets don't levitate from the floor...
>>And obviously, liquid blood doesn't literally spurt from the
>>ground like Old Faithful.
> 
>Now wait a minute.  Why 'obviously'?  The story has been told
>and it has been repeated by Elie Wiesel and others.

    First of all, Elie Wiesel did not originate the geyser story; he
repeated that someone told this to him.  Are you saying nobody ever told
Wiesel any such thing, and that he made it all up?  Where is your proof? 

>Are you saying that they _LIED_?  Of course not.  They were merely
>"in error".  They were "confused".  Is that what you would say?

    I would say in the case of Mu"ller you are the one in error in your 
insistence that "jump about" *must* mean completely leave the ground.  
Cf. Webster's New Universal Unabridged, 2nd ed, def. 2: "To be moved with 
a jerk, to bob, to bounce."  In the other case, I would indeed say they 
were in error in the interpretation of what they saw.

    I have a simple yes/no question for you to which I would like an
answer.  If someone says they saw something which is not 100% literally
true according to *your* interpretation, does it necessarily mean that
they didn't even see anything like it, that it must always be a deliberate
fabrication or hallucination and have *no* basis in reality? 

    My own answer is no.  I believe, for example, that a large number of
people who claim to have seen "UFOs" have actually seen lights in the sky
- but what they saw were easily-explainable phenomena such as unusual
airplane lights which for some reason they did not correctly identify.  
They did not lie, they *were* indeed merely in error.  Apparently Murungu 
thinks that they saw absolutely nothing and made the whole thing up.


>We are not allowed to say that Jews "lied", right?

    I don't like to say *anyone* lied without proof, as you would know if
you had seen my rebuke of Daniel Keren for calling Milt Kleim a liar about
having read something somewhere, but not being able to produce the book. 


>Oh come on now, Michael.  They either saw the jumping buckets or they
>didn't.  And they didn't because buckets of flesh DO NOT JUMP.  And
>THAT means that they LIED.

    Please take a course in remedial reading and remedial logic.  First,
Mu"ller described *one* moving bucket.  Second, the idea that either the
bucket completely lept high into the air or didn't move at all is a false
dichotomy.  Third, refer to the dictionary definition of "jump" reproduced
above.  Fourth, the conclusion does not follow.

    Another simple question for Murungu: If Mu"ller had said "The bucket 
rocked around" rather than "jumped about," would you withdraw your 
objection?

    One last simple question: is there anything else in the testimony of 
Filip Mu"ller you find unbelievable on the face of it?


>And that means that anybody wanting to learn about the Holocaust must 
>know that eyewitness accounts and survivor testimony have to be verified 
>as factual, that such accounts need to be corroborated by physical 
>evidence before they can stand up as historical fact.

    Another false conclusion.  Eyewitness accounts can also be verified 
by other eyewitness accounts.  Mu"ller is not the only person who 
testified to gassings.  How did *all* those people come to tell the 
*same* lie?  And why did the people at Auschwitz all make up a Zyklon 
lie, and the people at the Reinhard camps make up an engine exhaust lie?

    Statistically, this could not happen by coincidence.  Therefore this 
could only have happened by some conspiracy.  Where is your evidence for 
this conspiracy?  Who took part in it?  How was it organized?  

    Also, testimony must be analyzed as a whole.  That is, if a witness
makes one easily explainable error (such as using "jump" instead of
"rock," even though from the definition given earlier it's not even clear
that "jump" is really a wrong verb usage), in a testimony which is
otherwise solid and credible, that error is not enough to call into
question everything else which was said. 


>>The underlying scientific basis for the "geysers of blood" has been
>>previously explained here.  The gas generated by decomposing bodies
>>finally manages to break out from the ground rather suddenly when the
>>spring thaw comes, or for that matter whenever the pressure from the gas
>>becomes great enough enough to break out.  And so bits of dirt (and bits
>>of bodies, because the gas is exploding out of the torsos) get thrown up
>>into the air from the shallow graves as the pressure from the gas is
>>finally stronger than the ground above it.
> 
>Michael Stein says it all.  He is telling us that the story is true.

    I am telling you that there is good reason to think it was not a
complete invention, that there is good reason to believe the witnesses
*did* see something resembling what they described even if they did not 
use the same words Murungu would have used.


>He _wants_ us to believe the story.

    I want you to realize that an honest and objective analysis of
testimony requires that one consider not only how it can be false, but how
it can also be true to the best of the witness's ability to describe
things, even if Murungu feels he can describe it better. 

    Murungu wants us to *disbelieve* the story.  Not just that it 
didn't happen *literally*, but that NOTHING EVEN REMOTELY LIKE IT 
happened.  That's what he's insinuating.

    You know, I myself first disbelieved the geysers testimony when I 
first saw it.  Then Danny Keren posted the entirely credible story from 
(I think) Reitlinger's book.  I believe that people are mistaken far more 
often than they tell outright lies, that's all.  And I believe this 
consistently - not just for the Holocaust, but in other cases as well.


>Because Jews never lie you see.

    Who said that the person who told Wiesel that there were geysers of 
blood was Jewish?

    Of course people do lie, including Jews.  And people, including Jews,
get hysterical.  But which is likelier - that someone made up a story out
of whole cloth, or that they did see something reasonably close to what
they saw, something terrifying, something which sounds reasonably like
other calmer eyewitness testimony?  I think it's the latter.  Murungu says
it's the former, but he doesn't say why he believes that, or whether he
uses the same principle consistently (i.e., in cases which have nothing to
do with the Holocaust).

>The eyewitnesses and survivors of the Holocaust never lie.  Never.
>ALL tales of the Holocaust are TRUE and that's it.  No discussion.
>Finito.

    False.  I do believe that people in general tell the truth as best 
they perceive it.  And I'm willing to discuss it; Murungu is the one who 
simply says "anything which has anything wrong with it must be a complete 
and total fabrication" with no reasons offered for taking this position.


>The buckets of flesh jumped.

    According to the definition of "jump" given above, this would be 
possible - Murungu himself says he has seen the phenomenon of muscles 
continuing to work after death.


>They geysers of blood spurted from the ground.

    Two other eyewitness testimonies, entirely credible on the face of
them, said something came up from the ground from shallow graves.  Yet
Murungu is trying to convince people that the third testimony CANNOT
POSSIBLY have been an exaggeration, it was COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY MADE UP
FROM NOTHING and there is NO OTHER POSSIBLITY THAN A DELIBERATE LIE.  I
say that's false, there *is* another possibility. 


>The heads were shrunk.  

    There are heads in a museum.  Their existence is not debatable.  
Murungu seems to be suggesting that the U. S. Army made them, or that 
they were made by the Germans but were just clever Naugahyde imitations.

    But he still hasn't given one reason for this idea.  All he's saying 
is that *he* can't believe that Germans could make them, though he's 
perfectly capable of believing that the U. S. Army made them.

    Murungu says, "They're fakes and that's it.  No discussion is
possible." 


>The skin was made into lampshades

    *Something* was made into lampshades.  They were introduced into 
evidence.  Murungu says, "They're fakes and that's it.  No discussion is 
possible."


>and the human fat was made into soap.  The stories were
>told so they MUST be true.  We have it from Michael Stein.

    No, the stories were told by three witnesses; you have that from Mazur
and two British POWs who claimed to have been direct participants. 
Furthermore, there is probabilistic corroboration in that the Danzig
Institute also did other experiments on the use of human fat.  What you
have from me is this: for the reasons given above - multiple corroborative
testimonies and the existence of similar activities - there is a strong
presumption that the testimonies are true unless and until other evidence
comes forward to cast doubt on them. 

    Murungu does not provide any such evidence.


>To doubt is to malign Jews,

    It is also to reject the principles by which modern courts and 
historians work.

>to malign religious dogma

    There is actual evidence; it is not dogma.  Murungu is the dogmatic
one here; he has yet to give a single reason to believe that the U. S. 
Army fabricated shrunken heads, yet since he clearly does not belive that
Germans produced them, either supernatural forces or the U. S. Army would
seem to be the only other source.  Whether he explicitly admits it or not,
by logical necessity Murungu believes - without a scrap of evidence - that
the U. S. Army produced shrunken heads, or they miraculously appeared.  
Religious dogma, QED.


>No need to prove it.

    Murungu obviously feels no need to offer any evidence.  Even when 
incontroverable physical objects are found, "IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!  THEY'RE 
FAKE!" is, he feels, all he needs to say.  Religious dogma.


>It was said and therefore it happened.  There must have been a way!
> 
>>Not a geyser, exactly.  I think a "spring" of blood would be more
>>accurate...
> 
>Now you are changing the story.  You can't take the story, the
>tale, that was told by a survivor or an "eyewitness" and then
>tailor it to make it more palatable, more believable.  If the
>story is absurd, then it must be rejected in toto.

    False.  This is simply not a valid method of reasoning.  Murungu takes
the entirely one-sided view that any plausible story must be analyzed to
the Nth degree so that one tiny wording ambiguity (e.g., the precise
meaning intended by "jump") can be used to label the story absurd, so that
EVERYTHING the witness says can be rejected "in toto."  However, Murungu
says implausible stories are not allowed to be analyzed to see if there is
a basis in fact which would allow us to conclude that the statement is the
result of interpretational error, not deliberate lie or mental illness.

    Murungu's double standard is clear.


>And the spinner of the absurd story has NO credibility with anything else
>that he/she has to say.  If they LIE, they are not credible as
>"eyewitnesses".  This is obvious and yet it is resisted by the
>true believers.

Fine.  Let's judge Murungu by his own standards.  In article 
, Murungu wrote:
>The bigger the lies being told [I was gassed!  I was gassed 5 times!  I was
>gassed 50 times!], the bigger the payout.

    Nobody has claimed to be gassed 50 times.  This is absurd.  Therefore 
Murungu has LIED, and nothing he says has any credibility.  We simply 
cannot examine the possibility that he has exaggerated; this is a 
hallucination or a lie and Murungu can safely be dismissed "in toto."

    Right, Murungu?  I mean, that's your own standard.  The same goes for
Bradley Smith and his "lambada."  Mu"ller never said such a thing. 
Therefore Bradley Smith is a LIAR and EVERYTHING Bradley Smith says can be
discarded.  Right, Murungu?  Your rules, after all, not mine.  Still sure 
you want to play by them?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18362 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
Date: 30 Oct 1994 07:17:06 GMT
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Greg Raven  wrote:
# dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

## Now, the Nazis said they are going to kill the Jews of Europe;
## Hitler said it himself, publically, a few times. 

# Not true.

Speech by Hitler, January 31, 1939
[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol XIII, p. 131]
---------------------------------------------------------------
Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers
in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into
a world war, then the result will not be the bolshevization of the earth,
and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in
Europe!
 
## He also
## wrote a book, stating in it that he wishes to expose Jews
## to poison gas. 

# Not true.

He wrote this in "Mein Kampf". 
 
##  Many people - Jews, Germans, Poles, Russians,
## and others - saw Nazis kill Jews and other victims.

# No one is claiming that no Jew was ever killed by a Nazi. However, the
# revisionist position is that no Jews were killed in gas chambers as part of
# a Nazi plan or policy.

From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.

   * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz

 
##  Documents
## were found, in which leading Nazis state that they are going
## to kill the Jews, as well as detailed reports about the methods
## used for the killing and the numbers of victims.
 
# Detailed reports? Let's see them. Do they mention gas chambers?

Some of them do.
 
##   And, finally,
## many Nazis testified about how they killed Jews and others in
## the death camps and elsewhere, and that the orders given to
## them were to kill every Jew they could capture.

# Here we go with the "testimony" again. No doubt you particularly like the
# "testimony" of Rudolf Hoess and Otto Ohlendorf.

No, I don't "particularly like" their testimonies any more than many
other testimonies.
 

-Danny Keren.


Article 18372 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven: "Revisionist Scholar" in Action
Date: 30 Oct 1994 13:25:00 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <390ods$e4f@access4.digex.net>
References: <38c3bm$k74@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
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In article ,   wrote:
>[Michael Stein says...]
>>Mr. Raven had previously demanded that evidence consist of physical
>>evidence and contemporaneous documents.  However, now he seems to be
>>hedging his bets, so that even if a document turns up which says, "We
>>have gassed all the Jews as you ordered," and which Raven cannot think
>>of even a halfway-credible reason to call a forgery, he has an out.
> 
>Nonsense.  What Mr Raven says is that we have to look carefully at
>documents, not just blindly and believingly accept any and every
>document that is thrown at us.

    Actually, Mr. Raven does not believe in looking carefully at
documents.  He seems to thinks documents and testimonies can be dismissed
with "Oh, boy, more Soviet-supplied proof."  No further analysis (except 
perhaps for misinterpretations of the word "rectilinear") is needed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18374 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ai292
From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Subject: Re: McVey being paid $$$?  Sickening
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Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin)
Reply-To: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:   
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 02:17:02 GMT
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In a previous article, murungu@delphi.com () says:

[much nazi rubbish deleted]

> 
>I realize that I have broken a sacred taboo in discussing the money
>that Jews and others are making out of the Holocaust.  I was not
>supposed to have mentioned the Holocaust gravy train and the Holocaust
>trough; the goyim are not supposed to know about these things.  I
>humbly apologise for having broken the taboo.

Thanks for the info--the damn Joos almost had me hoodwinked, dumb goy that
I am, and you came along and saved me.  Boy, am I lucky!

Why don't you post in alt.fucked_up.racist where you belong?

--
Gordon McFee ai292

I'll write no line before its time!

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