Subject:     Leuchter -> Leuchter FAQ crosslink request
Sent:        10/28/96 12:41 PM
Received:    10/28/96 12:44 PM
From:        Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
To:          irimland@cts.com
CC:          Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca

Ms. Rimland,

Please add a cross-link from your Leuchter Report online edition to our 
Leuchter FAQ.

Note that I've just added the reverse link, from our FAQ to your copy of 
the Report.  (It'll take six to nine hours to hit our mirror sites, so 
it'll get to www.nizkor.org sometime this evening.)  Note that it's right 
on top of the main page.

Our Leuchter FAQ URL is:

   http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/

Thank you.

(Cc'd:  Ken McVay)

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/







Subject:     Re: Leuchter -> Leuchter FAQ crosslink request
Sent:        10/30/96 6:45 PM
Received:    10/30/96 6:48 PM
From:        E. Zundel, ezundel@cts.com
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net

There IS a link to Nizkor at the very first page of the Leuchter Report -
just as there is a link to Nizkor on EVERY SINGLE DOCUMENT we place.

Why don't you link to US on every single document YOU place, since you have
disavowed any interest in a debate and merely wish to link?  We urge you to
indulge in linking.




>Ms. Rimland,
>
>Please add a cross-link from your Leuchter Report online edition to our
>Leuchter FAQ.
>
>Note that I've just added the reverse link, from our FAQ to your copy of
>the Report.  (It'll take six to nine hours to hit our mirror sites, so
>it'll get to www.nizkor.org sometime this evening.)  Note that it's right
>on top of the main page.
>
>Our Leuchter FAQ URL is:
>
>   http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/
>
>Thank you.
>
>(Cc'd:  Ken McVay)
>
>--
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/

________
________
________ 







Subject:     Re: Leuchter -> Leuchter FAQ crosslink request
Sent:        10/30/96 6:57 PM
Received:    10/30/96 6:59 PM
From:        Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
To:          E. Zundel, ezundel@cts.com

The real question appears to be, why don't you want visitors to the 
Leuchter Report to see our refutation?  Why don't you want them even to 
_know_ that a refutation has been available for the last several years?

I have little interest in generic links to homepages, whether or not they 
be buried amidst disparaging commentary at the bottom of each page.  
"Revisionism" is complicated, and finding information about certain 
topics can be tough.  Linking to homepages doesn't help much, as I'm sure 
you realize.

I want to help visitors to our respective sites find what each of us has 
to say about the _issues_.  In this case, the Leuchter Report.  We want 
to make the interested researcher's job easy, so we link straight to the 
Leuchter Report itself.

We do this because we believe that our information stands up.  It stands 
the test of being directly compared to your information.  Do you not have 
that same degree of confidence?

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/









Subject:     Re: Leuchter -> Leuchter FAQ crosslink request
Sent:        10/30/96 7:27 PM
Received:    10/30/96 7:29 PM
From:        E. Zundel, ezundel@cts.com
To:          Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net

We could have had a debate, you know.. .

You could just move your Leuchter Rebuttal up front and put a blinking
light on it so people will not miss it even if they wander onto Nizkor from
ANY OTHER DOCUMENT of ours.

In our own interest, we are accommodating to the hilt.  We DO want people
to see you.  We look so good by comparison.

Over and out.

________
________
________ 








Subject:     Re: Leuchter -> Leuchter FAQ crosslink request
Sent:        10/30/96 7:42 PM
From:        Jamie McCarthy, jamie@voyager.net
To:          E. Zundel, ezundel@cts.com

You want us to put a "blinking light" on our home page pointing people to 
our Leuchter Report rebuttal?  Thanks for the tip, I guess.  What you may 
not realize is that we have hundreds of rebuttals on our site, and more 
are coming all the time.  Our home page simply isn't big enough to carry 
them all.

You say you are "accomodating to the hilt" -- I'm glad to hear it.  That 
being the case, it will be a simple matter for you to add one simple line 
of HTML text to the first page of your Leuchter Report.  Here, I'll even 
give you the line of HTML code:

   
Commentary on the
   Leuchter Report is available from the Nizkor site.

Just cut and paste that line into your web page at:

   http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/LEUCHTER/leuchtertoc.html

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/








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Subject: Re: ZGram - November 3, 1996
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 96 15:41:22 -0500
x-sender: jamie@vixa.voyager.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: Jamie McCarthy 
To: "E. Zundel" 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

>I don't know about
>the fourth one which I believe is colloquially called the "Krakow Report."
>It could be that it is available at Nizkor.  ( http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ )

No, our URL is http://www.nizkor.org/ and has been for months.

The report offered by the Institute for Forensic Research, Cracow, is 
available at:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/

And, as long as I've "got you on the line" --


Mr. Zuendel, I presume you got my email concerning Christopher Saunders, 
who would like to share the CSIS videotape but would like your permission 
first since it's your copyright.  Would you please either tell him it's 
all right, or send me the tape yourself, or publicly state that you don't 
want this alleged tape to be viewed?  Thanks.


And, Ms. Rimland, your last email to me concerning crosslinking the 
Leuchter Report to our Leuchter FAQ said:

   In our own interest, we are accommodating to the hilt.  We DO want
   people to see you.

I interpreted this to mean that you _did_ want to do the crosslinking. 
However, I have not heard back from you since my last email on 10/30, and 
there is still no crosslink on your Leuchter Report pages.  Perhaps I was 
mistaken.

As a reminder, here again is the single line of HTML code (or anything 
similar would do, of course):

   
Commentary on the
   Leuchter Report is available from the Nizkor site.

The page in question is:

   http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/LEUCHTER/leuchtertoc.html

Do you intend to insert this one line onto that one page, or not?  I 
would appreciate your letting me know either way.  Thank you.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/








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To: Jamie McCarthy 
From: ezundel@cts.com (E. Zundel)
Subject: Re: ZGram - November 3, 1996

Jamie,

I will, in a forthcoming ZGram, announce your new URL as well as give the
one for the Cracow Report.  I honestly didn't know since I have, at this
point, very little interest in what Nizkor is doing and haven't visited for
quite some time.  As you will recall, I did at one point have a very strong
interest because I thought we were talking debate.  Since you told me that
I was mistaken, I told you that, henceforth, we would link unilaterally and
leave you to your own devices about reciprocation.  This is what we've been
doing.

Once more - we link on every document!  We urge you to do likewise.

If you have hundreds of documents refuting the Leuchter Report, I suggest
you link on every single one to us, since you're so fond of linking but not
fond of debate except on alt.revisionism where people like to party with
lampshades on their heads.

Alternately, as I have also suggested before (an idea you even endorsed at
one time) you could organize your home page so that what is important to
you will be immediately found.  I assume a refutation of the Leuchter
Report ought to be important to you.
>
Mr. Zundel is not available right now to answer your question about the ARA
tape.  I have no idea what he intends to do.  I have forwarded your letter.
>

We are STILL interested in debating, but now it will have to be live - at a
university or at a major network.



________
________
________ 








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Subject: Re: ZGram - November 3, 1996
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 96 17:47:29 -0500
x-sender: jamie@vixa.voyager.net
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From: Jamie McCarthy 
To: "E. Zundel" 
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Ms. Rimland, you are very confused about a number of things.  I won't 
bother correcting you, because such corrections have had essentially no 
results in the past (it's been in one ear and out the other).

You didn't answer my question, so I assume you're _not_ going to take 
action.  You have time to write me 250-word emails, but -- despite 
claiming to be "accommodating to the hilt" -- you will not cut'n'paste a 
single line into a single HTML document.

My only possible conclusion is that, despite your claim to the contrary, 
you simply don't want people to see our response to the Leuchter Report.


However --

There may be a technical workaround to your refusal to participate in 
crosslinking.  If I took the time to write a custom program, perhaps you 
could point each of your pages to that program, rather than our home 
page. The result would be that, with no effort on your part, people who 
took your deprecating "Nizkor sucks" link at the bottom of each page 
would be _automatically_ sent to the page we felt most appropriate.

If I took the time to write this program, would you be willing to edit 
your footer to point to it rather than to our home page?  It would be 
more work for me, but that way I could stop bugging you about 
cross-linking.


--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/







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To: Jamie McCarthy 
From: ezundel@cts.com (E. Zundel)
Subject: Re: ZGram - November 3, 1996


Jamie,

as I said, Mr. Zundel is not available right now, but on the face of it
what you propose looks fine and dandy to me.  I personally would have no
problem with it whatsoever.

My whole objection to your way of linking was from the start that I felt
you would run us ragged with silly and inconsequential links.  I didn't
want to be your gopher.  If you want to do things on your own time and
indulge in linking to your heart's content, I would have no problem with
it.  In fact, it would be good for us because, as I have said before, we
_welcome_ the comparison.

The only reservation I would have would be with PAST links.  I don't want
to go back and redo every single document we have already placed, and we
have hundreds of documents of our own right now.  I am rather fond of my
"for relentless Holocaust promotion..." phrase, but I will check with M r.
Z and see what his feelings are on changing the wording a bit.

HOWEVER, if we link your way, how about a little "give" on your part by
linking every single document of yours to _us_ with something at least
neutral about us?  That would be really nifty.

I will be back in touch with you a week from now, as far as I can tell.
This new proposal implementation is not up to me altogether, but I have no
objection.

IR

________
________
________ 








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Subject: Re: ZGram - November 3, 1996
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 96 18:58:54 -0500
x-sender: jamie@vixa.voyager.net
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From: Jamie McCarthy 
To: "E. Zundel" 
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To change past pages, would you have to redo existing documents? I 
thought you had a footer of some kind set up, so that you could simply 
change the footer file and instantly get all files on your web site 
modified.  If you _are_ using footers, you could replace this single line 
of footer text:

   
For relentless Holocaust promotion, on the other hand,
   contact
   Nizkor.

With this line:

   
Nizkor may
   have a response to this web page.

Nizkor, on the other hand, is not using common footers and is unable to 
link to the Zuendelsite on every one of our 2,357 pages.  Sorry, but 
that's the way it is;  we've got five mirror sites on five totally 
different systems, all run by volunteers (mainly me), and it's hard 
enough just to keep it running at all.

We will continue to link directly to Zuendel's relevant pages, when 
appropriate.  I'm sure if you stop to think about it you will see that 
crosslinks between topically-related pages are much more effective and 
important than blanket links to home pages.  A quick check of our site 
reveals somewhat over 100 such crosslinks to your site.

Anyway, this solution might be easiest.  It would be a pain for me to 
write the code -- it takes time away from my paying jobs.  But if it's 
the only way, it's better than nothing.


--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/







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To: Jamie McCarthy 
From: ezundel@cts.com (E. Zundel)
Subject: Re: ZGram - November 3, 1996


Jamie,

just to give you something to think about how to do this and get back to
being civil again -  I have a footer in my glossary that I hand-paste into
every document before I ftp it to webcom.  For me to change past footers
would mean I'd have to go into file manager (agonizingly slow) one by one,
scroll down and change the footer.  It is too long and and slow and
cumbersome.  It's on-line.  and it's agony.

It's not a problem for me for any documents from now on, provided you
reciprocate. I want a fair system.  That's all.

I don't see why you can't paste into any documents from now on you put up a
neutral footer that would be reciprocal.  I wouldn't ask you to do it for
past documents for the same reason I don't want to redo them.  You must
have a glossary or a note pad.

IR

________
________
________ 







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Subject: Re: ZGram - November 3, 1996
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 96 14:08:10 -0500
x-sender: jamie@vixa.voyager.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: Jamie McCarthy 
To: "E. Zundel" 
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>I have a footer in my glossary that I hand-paste into
>every document before I ftp it to webcom.

Oh!  Sorry, I misunderstood how you were working.

>For me to change past footers
>would mean I'd have to go into file manager (agonizingly slow) one by one,
>scroll down and change the footer.

Understood.  I can see how that would be very tedious.

Let me consider the problem and see if there isn't a better way to do 
this.  We may be able to implement the CGI solution with you keeping the 
same HTML code you've got now (pointing to our slow home page at 
www.almanac.bc.ca).  It's hard to say at the moment since our mirroring 
system is in flux.

>I don't see why you can't paste into any documents from now on you put up a
>neutral footer that would be reciprocal.
[...]
>You must have a glossary or a note pad.

Why I don't do it?  Well, first of all, as I've said before, I _won't_.  
One of the hallmarks of our site is cleanliness and consistency.  If 
people want to go to other sites, our "other sites" page is clearly 
marked on our home page.  If they don't want to go there, they can call 
up Yahoo and find "revisionist" sites in about ten seconds.  Links to 
home pages are not much of a convenience, and certainly not enough to 
clutter up every one of our 2000+ web pages with.  It's the cross-links 
between specific _topics_ that are useful, which is the point I've been 
making to you over and over for the last ten or eleven months.

The Zuendelsite is only one of many "revisionist" sites on the net.  If 
we add you to every single page, do we add the IHR web site?  CODOH?  
Adelaide?  Where does it end?  Well, it ends when our pages are as 
cluttered and difficult to read as...well, no offense, but as yours.

Besides, our site is for people who want to do real research.  Why should 
someone reading our copy of the U.S. Government's 1,400-page report on 
Adolf Hitler, from 1934, see links to the Zuendelsite or other 
Holocaust-denial sites?  So they can read about Israel being an immoral 
state?  Irrelevant.

Even if we wanted to do this, we'd have a very hard time.  You ask if we 
have a "glossary or a note pad" -- you don't understand how the Nizkor 
site is put together.  We have a plethora of _volunteers_ using totally 
different computer systems.  Ken works online and doesn't even have a 
cut-and-paste -- he uses Emacs, I think;  I use a Mac but my uploading 
goes painfully slowly;  Sara uses a Mac too but I think she emails files 
to Ken;  Hilary uses Windows;  Gord uses OS/2;  you get the idea.  We do 
this in our spare time, and getting it to work at all is amazing.  
Changing even small details in how we work is a big deal for us.


As I say, I'll look into the possibility of writing extra code to enable 
effective cross-linking without your having to do much beyond using the 
regular footer text you're using already.  I'll be in touch.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/



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To: Jamie McCarthy 
From: irimland@cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: Re: ZGram - November 10, 1996 - "Jurgen Graf's newest on the NW

Jamie,

the last communication we had was to the effect that you would think about
a way to write a program on your end that would ONLY necessitate our
changing our standard  bottom document link to Nizkor.  I told you that I
would run this proposal by Mr. Zundel, but that I personally saw no problem
doing it FROM NOW ON on every document we place.  I also told you that I
did NOT want to do it on old documents already placed - simply for logistic
reasons.  It is too slow, cumbersome and expensive to do it.

You said you would think about it  and get back to me on that.

I have since asked Mr. Zundel, and he agreed to this arrangement. If you
want to write such a program, we would HAVE a de facto debate, whether or
not you chose to call it that.  It would suit us just fine.

I also asked Mr. Zundel about changing the wording on our standard,
boilerplate links to Nizkor, and I told him also that you were not willing
to reciprocate and put up links on every Nizkor document to US.  He said,
in that case our wording stays as it is.

As I have explained already several times, I have no interest in
accommodating you with individual, document-to-document links if you are
not willing to have a debate.  You have said repeatedly that you were not
willing to have a website debate, had never agreed to it, and that the
whole debate idea was merely a figment of our imagination.  We have now
discarded that notion and are proceeding independently and unilaterally -
still hoping that, one day, we WILL  debate in a live forum with a national
and/or international audience. If and when that comes about, you are
invited to participate.

Once more:  It is important to us for any number of fine reasons to have
the linking be under control where we wouldn't tie our time to silly and
inconsequential links to whatever documents you might decide are pertinent.
That is my major reason but not the only one.  As I have said before, I
don't want to play gopher to Nizkor.  I have serious work to do. And it is
impossible for me to get respectable scholars involved if there isn't even
agreement that what we are doing IS a debate - and one that is managed
properly.  Why should they?

Boilerplate links are quite sufficient to alert people to the notion that
there is opposition to our Revisionist claims via Nizkor.  You can make the
most of by  presenting your line of the arguments if you care to organize
yourself on your end.  All you have to do is shine.

Regarding the ARA tape, a placement somewhere in the dark hole of the
internet universe is of very little use to us - or you, for that matter.
My guess is somebody told you already it wasn't a good idea to place that
tape after all.  If you can't get it placed on Nizkor - if I were you, I
wouldn't bother.

IR








>>The Nizkor folks have offered in all innocence to
>>put the ARA tape up on their site
>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ not necessarily
>
>I've offered to put it up at Nizkor if it is legal to do so.  Your
>statement is close enough for all practical purposes, but I wanted to
>alert you ahead of time as to the minor error.
>
>I may have to house it at another server to avoid legal difficulties.  I
>understand that Zuendel owns the copyright, but if it looks like Canada's
>national security or other issues might be at risk (I don't know if it's
>legal to tape a Canadian government operative without his/her
>permission), we may not put it up at _our_ site.
>
>I do promise that it will get up on the net, somehow, somewhere, in a
>timely manner.  That, you can quote me on.
>
>
>I take it from your failure to respond that you aren't going to crosslink
>the file I asked for.
>
>--
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/

________
________
________ The Zundelsite can be found at
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/








Received: from nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (nizkor.almanac.bc.ca [199.60.231.65]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with SMTP id RAA03934 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:23:45 -0500 (EST)
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Message-Id: <199611112222.RAA03541@vixa.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: ZGram - November 10, 1996 - "Jurgen Graf's newest on the NW
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 17:22:57 -0500
x-sender: jamie@vixa.voyager.net
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From: Jamie McCarthy 
To: "Ingrid Rimland" 
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>Regarding the ARA tape, a placement somewhere in the dark hole of the
>internet universe is of very little use to us - or you, for that matter.
>My guess is somebody told you already it wasn't a good idea to place that
>tape after all.

Well, that _would_ be your guess, since you're a conspiracy nut.

You _do_ know that I gave up correcting all your errors and lies a long 
time ago, right?  That now I just watch them go by and try to smile?

>If you can't get it placed on Nizkor - if I were you, I
>wouldn't bother.

I won't place it on Nizkor's server if it's illegal, because I don't want 
Nizkor to get sued.  This is my personal project, not Nizkor's.

To reduce Nizkor's culpability, I will put it on a server in a country 
with weak copyright laws if I have to -- South Africa or someplace 
offshore, probably.  Nizkor would host a prominent (homepage) link 
thereto, and our users shouldn't even notice the difference unless 
they're watching their URLs carefully.

Are we all clear now?



Regarding the arrangement,

>I have since asked Mr. Zundel, and he agreed to this arrangement. If you
>want to write such a program, we would HAVE a de facto debate, whether or
>not you chose to call it that.  It would suit us just fine.

I guess I'll take what I can get.  If your strong committment to open 
discourse boils down, in the end, to not being willing to do _any_ extra 
work, well, then I guess that's what I've got to work with.

I'll tell you that it's not going to happen in the near future (weeks) 
because things are changing for us technically.  But I will write this 
program and try to get it to work.

In the meantime, continue linking to our home page -- your old links to 
www.almanac.bc.ca will do, but feel free to change that to our main site 
at www.nizkor.org for new documents that you create, if it isn't too much 
trouble.

I still disagree that cross-linking should be labeled "debate," because I 
have this crazy notion that the term actually means something.  But you 
can call it whatever you want, of course.

You have admitted that you _would_ call cross-linking "de facto debate." 
Since you must surely agree that this is _all_ we've been asking for for 
the last ten months (!), then I trust you now see that Nizkor never _was_ 
running away from debate.  I don't expect retractions for all the nasty 
things you said about us over the last ten months, but I do hope you will 
no longer refer to Nizkor as having foiled your plans for "debate" in any 
way. If you do, please be sure to explain to your audience that the 
extent of Nizkor's crime was to replace (what you call) "debate" with 
(what you call) "de facto debate."

On second thought -- never mind -- just keep lying about us as you always 
have.  I'll try to smile.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/








Received: from vixa.voyager.net by veritas.nizkor.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)	id UAA07649; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:46:33 -0600
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Message-Id: <199703270244.VAA22427@vixa.voyager.net>
Subject: crosslink request
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 21:46:57 -0500
x-sender: jamie@mail.voyager.net
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From: Jamie McCarthy 
To: 
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Ms. Rimland,

Please begin changing the link at the bottom of each Zundelsite page from

   http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

(or whatever it currently is) to

   http://www.nizkor.org/crosslink-ezundel.cgi

Please notify me when you begin and when you finish this process.

Thank you.

--
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@nizkor.org     Director of Operations, The Nizkor Project
                                          http://www.nizkor.org/
 I lost 100+ incoming emails from 10 AM - 11 PM, Thursday, March 20.
 If you didn't get a reply from me on it, I lost it;  please resend.









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To: Jamie McCarthy 
From: irimland@cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: Re: crosslink request


Jamie,

You've got to be kidding!  Would we ask YOU to link to a page called
"Jamie's buns"?

We are linking to the Nizkor home page, as we have done before.  We are in
the very serious business of Holocaust busting and not in the business of
personal, childish vendettas.

IR

________
________
________ The Zundelsite can be found at
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/

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