From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is not only a censor but a hypocritical one
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:50:52 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 75
Message-ID: 
References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> <4padof$l66@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4pcll8$5te@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pdbbm$7ne@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> Matt Giwer  wrote:
> >>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
> >
> >>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> But isn't the Nizkor leaders
> >>> >  like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
> >>> >  shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with
> >>> >  pressures? 
> >>> 
> >>>         Certainly.  There was systematic voice and email harrassment of
> >>> Combase until I was dropped.  They even posted a bit on it here.
> >>> That is called censorship the last time I heard.  It is also
> >>> called a conspiracy.
> >  
> >       Statement of fact, little one.  There was in fact harrassment of
> >a service provider by the holohuggers.
> 
>     One could also make a case that there was harrassment of two service
> providers by the Giwer: Internet Direct and Volant Turnpike.  Giwer had
> Rack Jite's web pages censored _before_ he was bounced from Combase.

More importantly -- the "Nizkor leaders" and the "holohuggers" had
nothing to do with this "voice and email harrassment," this
"censorship," this "shut[ting] up some of the guys they don't like,"
this "pressures," this "harrassment of a service provider."

All fabrications from Giwer and Beaulieu.

In other words, I am hereby calling Giwer a liar (and I'm accusing
Beaulieu of acting leading questions without really knowing what he's
talking about).

If he would like to prove me wrong, all he has to do is post, publicly,
his proof that the "Nizkor leaders" and/or the "holohuggers" have done
anything like what he has claimed.  I won't read it -- I delete all
Giwer's posts unread and see no reason to change this practice -- but
I'm sure friendly Usenetters will be sure to email me a copy of such
"proof."  If it really would be proof, that is.

Of course, he has no proof, so he will find it difficult to do this.

The closest thing he has is his claim that Gordon McFee is really
"Marduk," who allegedly harrassed Mr. Giwer's previous service provider.
Mr. Giwer's claim has been denied by everyone involved:  Mr. McFee,
"Marduk," and most importantly an administrator at "Marduk"'s service
provider, who actually offered to write a testimonial to that effect!

In short, all we have seen that "proves" Nizkor's supposed affinity for
censorship is the ravings of a troll who lies regularly and who cannot
provide a single piece of evidence for this claim in particular.

Is that enough for you, Mr. Beaulieu?  Because if it is, I see no reason
to continue our discussion about the facts of the Holocaust:  Himmler's
speeches and so on.  If your standards of "proof" are really that
anemic, there simply would be no point.

URLs of interest:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/dishonest-text-deletion
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lean-mixtures-lie
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/boycott-giwer
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer-vrs-idirect.com
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/objectives.html

Posted;  emailed to Mr. Beaulieu and Mr. Stein.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
 to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.
 
 
 
 
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is not only a censor but a hypocritical one
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 05:56:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4plman$8nt@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-35.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 12 12:58:47 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>> Matt Giwer  wrote:
>> >>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> >
>> >>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>> 
>> >>> But isn't the Nizkor leaders
>> >>> >  like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
>> >>> >  shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with
>> >>> >  pressures? 
>> >>> 
>> >>>         Certainly.  There was systematic voice and email harrassment of
>> >>> Combase until I was dropped.  They even posted a bit on it here.
>> >>> That is called censorship the last time I heard.  It is also
>> >>> called a conspiracy.
>> >  
>> >       Statement of fact, little one.  There was in fact harrassment of
>> >a service provider by the holohuggers.
>> 
>>     One could also make a case that there was harrassment of two service
>> providers by the Giwer: Internet Direct and Volant Turnpike.  Giwer had
>> Rack Jite's web pages censored _before_ he was bounced from Combase.

>More importantly -- the "Nizkor leaders" and the "holohuggers" had
>nothing to do with this "voice and email harrassment," this
>"censorship," this "shut[ting] up some of the guys they don't like,"
>this "pressures," this "harrassment of a service provider."

>All fabrications from Giwer and Beaulieu.

        Such it the claim of the Nizkor Gang of Six.  It is questionable, given
the other tactics of the gang, that there is any credibility to the
denial.  Gee, I have discovered deniers.  Surprise, surprise.  

>In other words, I am hereby calling Giwer a liar 
        
        For saying what?  It appears go be another of the baseless charges of
the Gang of Six.  

(and I'm accusing
>Beaulieu of acting leading questions without really knowing what he's
>talking about).

>If he would like to prove me wrong, all he has to do is post, publicly,
>his proof that the "Nizkor leaders" and/or the "holohuggers" have done
>anything like what he has claimed.  I won't read it -- I delete all
>Giwer's posts unread and see no reason to change this practice -- but
>I'm sure friendly Usenetters will be sure to email me a copy of such
>"proof."  If it really would be proof, that is.

        I have made no such claim.  So you could never read such a claim you
brainless fool.  

>Of course, he has no proof, so he will find it difficult to do this.

        You are truly an idiot to accuse me of something I did not say.  

>The closest thing he has is his claim that Gordon McFee is really
>"Marduk," who allegedly harrassed Mr. Giwer's previous service provider.
>Mr. Giwer's claim has been denied by everyone involved:  Mr. McFee,
>"Marduk," and most importantly an administrator at "Marduk"'s service
>provider, who actually offered to write a testimonial to that effect!

        Gee, just how many were involved in that harrassment?  Who were the
conspirators?  

        But it appears you are involving his service provider in the conspiracy
as Marduk posted matters discussed in a phone conversation between CEOs
only a couple hours after the conversation.  You appear to be accusing
someone of lying here.  Which shall it be?  




From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is not only a censor but a hypocritical one
Date: 12 Jun 1996 13:34:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <4pmv2m$65q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> <4pdbbm$7ne@access1.digex.net>  <4plman$8nt@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4plman$8nt@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>> Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>> >>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> But isn't the Nizkor leaders
>>> >>> >  like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and 
>>> >>> >  temporary) to
>>> >>> >  shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with
>>> >>> >  pressures? 
>>> >>> 
>>> >>>         Certainly.  There was systematic voice and email harrassment of
>>> >>> Combase until I was dropped.  They even posted a bit on it here.
>>> >>> That is called censorship the last time I heard.  It is also
>>> >>> called a conspiracy.
>>> >  
>>> >       Statement of fact, little one.  There was in fact harrassment of
>>> >a service provider by the holohuggers.
>>> 
>>>     One could also make a case that there was harrassment of two service
>>> providers by the Giwer: Internet Direct and Volant Turnpike.  Giwer had
>>> Rack Jite's web pages censored _before_ he was bounced from Combase.
>
>>More importantly -- the "Nizkor leaders" and the "holohuggers" had
>>nothing to do with this "voice and email harrassment," this
>>"censorship," this "shut[ting] up some of the guys they don't like,"
>>this "pressures," this "harrassment of a service provider."
>
>>All fabrications from Giwer and Beaulieu.
>
>       Such it the claim of the Nizkor Gang of Six.  It is questionable, given
>the other tactics of the gang, that there is any credibility to the
>denial.  Gee, I have discovered deniers.  Surprise, surprise.

    If you have evidence you are welcome to post it.  Unedited of course.



>>In other words, I am hereby calling Giwer a liar 
>       
>       For saying what?  It appears go be another of the baseless charges of
>the Gang of Six.  

    For saying "certainly" in response to Mr. Beaulieu's text which makes
a false allegation against the "Nizkor leaders."  



>(and I'm accusing
>>Beaulieu of acting leading questions without really knowing what he's
>>talking about).
>
>>If he would like to prove me wrong, all he has to do is post, publicly,
>>his proof that the "Nizkor leaders" and/or the "holohuggers" have done
>>anything like what he has claimed.  I won't read it -- I delete all
>>Giwer's posts unread and see no reason to change this practice -- but
>>I'm sure friendly Usenetters will be sure to email me a copy of such
>>"proof."  If it really would be proof, that is.
>
>       I have made no such claim.  So you could never read such a claim you
>brainless fool.  

    You answered Mr. Beaulieu's question with an affirmative.  What did
you think he was saying? 



>>Of course, he has no proof, so he will find it difficult to do this.
>
>       You are truly an idiot to accuse me of something I did not say.  

    You did not correct someone else's false and derogatory allegation
against certain people but instead answered "Certainly" to it.  Clearly
deceptive.  And you did it deliberately.



>>The closest thing he has is his claim that Gordon McFee is really
>>"Marduk," who allegedly harrassed Mr. Giwer's previous service provider.
>>Mr. Giwer's claim has been denied by everyone involved:  Mr. McFee,
>>"Marduk," and most importantly an administrator at "Marduk"'s service
>>provider, who actually offered to write a testimonial to that effect!
>
>       Gee, just how many were involved in that harrassment?  Who were the
>conspirators?

    That is a question to ask people who make allegations or otherwise
make statements to get people to think that there has been harrassment or
conspiracy.  Any person making such a claim bears the burden of proof.
But you know that.


>       But it appears you are involving his service provider in the conspiracy
>as Marduk posted matters discussed in a phone conversation between CEOs
>only a couple hours after the conversation.

    Mr. Giwer appears to be seeing things.


>You appear to be accusing someone of lying here.  Which shall it be?

    If you have evidence to support an allegation that any "Nizkor leader" 
has applied pressure to shut you or anyone else up, successful or no, you
are free to post it.  Verbatim, uncut, with article ID, email headers, or
URL.  If you have none, I will be forced to conclude you have deliberately
worked to promote a false idea that such pressure existed.

    Posted/emailed to Mr. Beaulieu, who is invited to post his evidence or
retract.
-- 
Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.




From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is not only a censor but a hypocritical one
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:21:23 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4ovu98$pb2@Vir.com> <4pdbbm$7ne@access1.digex.net>  <4plman$8nt@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pmv2m$65q@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>     If you have evidence to support an allegation that any "Nizkor leader" 
> has applied pressure to shut you or anyone else up, successful or no, you
> are free to post it.  Verbatim, uncut, with article ID, email headers, or
> URL.  If you have none, I will be forced to conclude you have deliberately
> worked to promote a false idea that such pressure existed.

And that's the bottom line.

Of course, since such evidence has not been forthcoming in the last few
months, there's no reason to believe it will surface now.  It's clear that
this fellow has lied again.  And this time, has backpedaled and claimed
that I made a "baseless charge" when I accused him of lying -- which was
pretty stupid considering that his own lie was quoted just a few lines
above:

   >>> >>> But isn't the Nizkor leaders
   >>> >>> >  like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and 
   >>> >>> >  temporary) to
   >>> >>> >  shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with
   >>> >>> >  pressures? 
   >>> >>> 
   >>> >>>         Certainly.

But lies, followed by backpedaling, appear to be a pattern with this man.

The real question is, Mr. Beaulieu, why do you believe him?

Posted;  emailed to Mr. Stein and Mr. Beaulieu.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
 to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.

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