Path: news.voyager.net!clmx16.dial.voyager.net!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 04:13:51 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
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Xref: news.voyager.net news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56257 alt.revisionism:51302

Matt Giwer (mgiwer@netcom.com) writes:

> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> >You've missed the point.  Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
> >declared their intentions to be:
> 
> >      making this a "spam conference" [1];
> 
>    This was a comment of mine in response to specific threat of theirs to
> duplicate everything I post in the conference.  Thus they were the ones
> making the threat.  I merely put a name to the consequences of such a
> threat.  

That is an outright lie.  Back it up (by documenting this alleged
"specific threat") or retract.

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03

> >      responding to questions with irrelevant, long propaganda [2];
> 
>         I do not do that, as you know.  

That is a lie.  A quick visit to:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty

and

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-one-liner

should make that clear.

> >      posting under fake names to dodge peoples' killfiles [3];
> 
>    This appears to be an issue with the outgoing news servers at Netcom
[...]

Your response was deleted, as you obviously misunderstood the
allegation, presumably because you did not bother to access the URL
which documented it:

  "I can and will come in under another name that is not killfiled. 
   You folks have proven yourselves so freaking dumb that I can do
   anything I want to show what idiots you are."

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02

> >         or, my favorite:
> 
> >      "making it" (this newsgroup) "useless" to anyone who would
> >      challenge revisionist dogma [4].
> 
>         That is not what is said.  
> 
>    What I did say is that it could be made useless to the mind control
> freaks who have been intent upon making a conference on revisionism
> useless to people who want to talk about revisionism.  

The "mind control freaks" are those of us who want to discuss
revisionism but who do not agree with Mr. Giwer.  Mr. Giwer refers
to these people as "hijackers."

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless

If he could produce a single piece of evidence that we "hijackers" are
"mind control freaks," or that we "hijackers" want to make the
conference "useless" to our ideological opponents, he might have a case.
 He can't, so he doesn't.  In fact, there was a short thread a month or
so ago in which several of us "hijackers" expressed thanks for Usenet
and other means of open expression, so that Nazis could make fools of
themselves in public.  If challenged, I'll dig up an archive of or a URL
for this thread.

On the other hand, we have Matt Giwer admitting that "making it useless"
is exactly what he intends to do to _his_ ideological opponents.

>    You folks have  not only been doing that for years with personal insults
> and harrassment including harrassment of people's families

That is a lie.  Back it up or retract.

> but you have
> bragged about doing so.  You have bragged about driving people out of
> the conference.  

Since you claim we have bragged about doing these things, it should be
exceptionally easy for you to back up your statement.  However, you
cannot, as it is a lie.

>    You folks have publically posted about email planning as to the best way
> to get people to leave the conference.  

That is a lie.  Back it up or retract.

Again, here are the URLs backing up _my_ claims about _Giwer_.

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>   You fail to note in public that the files on Nizkor are heavily censored
> and altered to conceal the original intent and meaning of the posts.  

"Censored"?  That is a lie, since every post Mr. Giwer have made to
alt.revisionism over the last six months (or more) is archived.  See
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt .

"Altered"?  That is a lie.  Back it up or retract.

>    You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
> prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

That is a lie.  Back it up or retract.

>    You fail to note the years of spamming the exact same messages on the
> conference by members of Nizkor.  

That is a lie (unless one uses a ridiculously loose meaning for the
term "spamming").  Back it up or retract.

>    You fail to note that the posts to this conference are in fact one more
> attempt to prevent discussion of revisionism as an attempt to silence
> me.

That is a lie.  Back it up or retract. 

>    You fail to note that these were in response to what was posted on the
> conference.  Which of course is your objective, to stop responses to
> what you folks post.  You brag so much about stopping others from doing
> so.  

That is a lie.  Nobody wants to stop responses.  I would like to see
some useful discussion going on.  As I have said publicly many times, I
do not want to see an end to discussion or to revisionists posting their
viewpoints, because they are their own worst enemies.  We very much want
them to discuss matters with us, and we want to discuss matters with
them.

What I and we would like to see end, is the flooding of the newsgroup to
the point where it is so busy as to be useless for such discussion.

>    Jamie, me boy, you folks are simply getting a dose of what you have been
> doing to others and bragging about for years.  

"Bragging" again.  So this too should be exceptionally easy to document.
Yet you don't.  It's a lie.  Back it up or retract.

>         You folks have bluntly referred to it as "our conference"

That is a lie (assuming that by "you folks" you mean only
anti-revisionists -- the group should "belong" to anyone who wishes
to discuss revisionism, which by your own admission does not include
you, Mr. Giwer).  Back it up or retract.

>    You are a liar, Jamie.  I can not change that.  You can change that.  

I have presented the URLs which back up what I say.  I invite the reader
to browse them:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

Mr. Giwer fails to present anything to back up his outrageous assertions.

Make up your own mind.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
 to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.







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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:32:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 196
Message-ID: <4qvge0$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27  9:35:44 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: news.voyager.net news.admin.net-abuse.misc:56475 alt.revisionism:51523

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@netcom.com) writes:

>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>> 
>> >You've missed the point.  Dr. Keren and Mr. McVay have not publicly
>> >declared their intentions to be:
>> 
>> >      making this a "spam conference" [1];
>> 
>>    This was a comment of mine in response to specific threat of theirs to
>> duplicate everything I post in the conference.  Thus they were the ones
>> making the threat.  I merely put a name to the consequences of such a
>> threat.  

>That is an outright lie.  Back it up (by documenting this alleged
>"specific threat") or retract.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.03

>> >      responding to questions with irrelevant, long propaganda [2];
>> 
>>         I do not do that, as you know.  

>That is a lie.  A quick visit to:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty

>and

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-one-liner

>should make that clear.

>> >      posting under fake names to dodge peoples' killfiles [3];
>> 
>>    This appears to be an issue with the outgoing news servers at Netcom
>[...]

>Your response was deleted, as you obviously misunderstood the
>allegation, presumably because you did not bother to access the URL
>which documented it:

>  "I can and will come in under another name that is not killfiled. 
>   You folks have proven yourselves so freaking dumb that I can do
>   anything I want to show what idiots you are."

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/brags-about-manipulation.02

>> >         or, my favorite:
>> 
>> >      "making it" (this newsgroup) "useless" to anyone who would
>> >      challenge revisionist dogma [4].
>> 
>>         That is not what is said.  
>> 
>>    What I did say is that it could be made useless to the mind control
>> freaks who have been intent upon making a conference on revisionism
>> useless to people who want to talk about revisionism.  

>The "mind control freaks" are those of us who want to discuss
>revisionism but who do not agree with Mr. Giwer.  Mr. Giwer refers
>to these people as "hijackers."

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/make-it-useless

>If he could produce a single piece of evidence that we "hijackers" are
>"mind control freaks," or that we "hijackers" want to make the
>conference "useless" to our ideological opponents, he might have a case.
> He can't, so he doesn't.  In fact, there was a short thread a month or
>so ago in which several of us "hijackers" expressed thanks for Usenet
>and other means of open expression, so that Nazis could make fools of
>themselves in public.  If challenged, I'll dig up an archive of or a URL
>for this thread.

>On the other hand, we have Matt Giwer admitting that "making it useless"
>is exactly what he intends to do to _his_ ideological opponents.

>>    You folks have  not only been doing that for years with personal insults
>> and harrassment including harrassment of people's families

>That is a lie.  Back it up or retract.

>> but you have
>> bragged about doing so.  You have bragged about driving people out of
>> the conference.  

>Since you claim we have bragged about doing these things, it should be
>exceptionally easy for you to back up your statement.  However, you
>cannot, as it is a lie.

>>    You folks have publically posted about email planning as to the best way
>> to get people to leave the conference.  

>That is a lie.  Back it up or retract.

>Again, here are the URLs backing up _my_ claims about _Giwer_.

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>>   You fail to note in public that the files on Nizkor are heavily censored
>> and altered to conceal the original intent and meaning of the posts.  

>"Censored"?  That is a lie, since every post Mr. Giwer have made to
>alt.revisionism over the last six months (or more) is archived.  See
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt .

>"Altered"?  That is a lie.  Back it up or retract.

>>    You fail to note that the Gang of Six at Nizkor conspires by email to
>> prevent discussion of revisionism on alt.revisionism.

>That is a lie.  Back it up or retract.

>>    You fail to note the years of spamming the exact same messages on the
>> conference by members of Nizkor.  

>That is a lie (unless one uses a ridiculously loose meaning for the
>term "spamming").  Back it up or retract.

>>    You fail to note that the posts to this conference are in fact one more
>> attempt to prevent discussion of revisionism as an attempt to silence
>> me.

>That is a lie.  Back it up or retract. 

>>    You fail to note that these were in response to what was posted on the
>> conference.  Which of course is your objective, to stop responses to
>> what you folks post.  You brag so much about stopping others from doing
>> so.  

>That is a lie.  Nobody wants to stop responses.  I would like to see
>some useful discussion going on.  As I have said publicly many times, I
>do not want to see an end to discussion or to revisionists posting their
>viewpoints, because they are their own worst enemies.  We very much want
>them to discuss matters with us, and we want to discuss matters with
>them.

>What I and we would like to see end, is the flooding of the newsgroup to
>the point where it is so busy as to be useless for such discussion.

>>    Jamie, me boy, you folks are simply getting a dose of what you have been
>> doing to others and bragging about for years.  

>"Bragging" again.  So this too should be exceptionally easy to document.
>Yet you don't.  It's a lie.  Back it up or retract.

>>         You folks have bluntly referred to it as "our conference"

>That is a lie (assuming that by "you folks" you mean only
>anti-revisionists -- the group should "belong" to anyone who wishes
>to discuss revisionism, which by your own admission does not include
>you, Mr. Giwer).  Back it up or retract.

>>    You are a liar, Jamie.  I can not change that.  You can change that.  

>I have presented the URLs which back up what I say.  I invite the reader
>to browse them:

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>Mr. Giwer fails to present anything to back up his outrageous assertions.

>Make up your own mind.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.

        Nice tantrum but nothing I have posting is outrageous.  What is
outrageous is that they are all true of Nizkor.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







Path: news.voyager.net!clmx42.dial.voyager.net!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 16:44:24 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References:  <4qvge0$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net
Xref: news.voyager.net news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57348 alt.revisionism:52580 alt.usenet.kooks:24891

In article <4qvge0$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
(mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) quoted my entire article exposing the lies which
he used to try to defend his outrageous abuse of Usenet.

He then replied:

> Nice tantrum but nothing I have posting is outrageous.  What is
> outrageous is that they are all true of Nizkor.  

He then threw on a 15-line sig, just for spam's sake (see
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty
for 300 KB of more examples of this).

That was the total of his reply.

In short, Mr. Giwer's response is "I know you are but what am I."

OK.

This thread has been archived as:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/giwer-defends-himself

Posted;  not emailed, because Giwer does not want email from me.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Hate mail will be posted.

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