Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.13 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. So if five tonnes of pellets were picked up, then it is five tonnes of tins containing Zyklon-B pellets? A. Yes. The truck is not going to carry more than five tonnes, whatever it is. So, ultimately, the amount of hydrogen cyanide which actually is carried by this truck will be closer to because it is more or less, I think 1/5th of the gross weight of a tin is actually hydrogen cyanide will be closer to a tonne than five tonnes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, are you putting forward a positive case as to what the materials for the Jew resettlement were if they were not Zyklon-B? MR IRVING: We are just going to move to document 0, my Lord, the first document in that next clip. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that is going to answer the question, is it? MR IRVING: Which I hope will go a long way towards answering the question. This comes from exactly the same kind of source. It is the one which the Holocaust historians never quote. They frequently quote the other two or three which are in this clip. This is received in Auschwitz on July 22nd 1942, again from Berlin: "I herewith give permission for one five tonne truck to drive from Auschwitz to Dessau and back to fetch gas for the gassing of the camp to combat the epidemic that has broken out". Now you can read that document whichever way you . P-108 wish, my Lord. It is quite possible, of course, that the Defence will submit that this is just camouflage. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us ask Professor van Pelt. A. Absolutely I do not think it is camouflage. I think that in my book at a certain moment (and Mr Irving picked it up) I said that in the summer 1942 a lot of Zyklon was being used in the camp, to indeed, basically, how you call it, fumigate clothing and barracks because there was an epidemic. Q. We will just remain with this for two or three more minutes, my Lord. A. But it does not mean it was the exclusive use of Zyklon-B. Q. Just before the adjournment -- this largely ends that matter -- in your section 5 called "Confession"s, you have reproduced the testimony of a man called Muka, who was the adjutant of the Kommandant of Auschwitz at this time. A. I do. Shall we turn to the particular page? Q. These permission slips to dispatch the trucks were frequently signed by Muka, were they not? A. Let us go to the page. I am happy, I know what you refer to, statements made in the Frankfurt trial, but I do not exactly know where it is right now. Do you have a page number. Q. Only that it is in (v) "Confessions". My pagination, unfortunately ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think, as we have not got the reference to . P-109 hand, shall we deal with that at 2 o'clock? MR IRVING: Until 2 o'clock? Very well, my Lord. (Luncheon adjournment) MR IRVING: My Lord, might I ask that you remind those present that we are not sitting tomorrow in case some people make the mistake and come tomorrow and do not realize that we are not sitting? MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are quite right that we are not sitting tomorrow, but also on Friday, what I would like to do is perhaps start an half an hour earlier than normal and probably finish earlier than normal as well, so sit at 10 on Friday. Yes. MR IRVING: From Dessau to Auschwitz, my Lord, but before I go on, can I remark on something in my translation about field kitchens? Firstly, as your Lordship is aware, I have never denied the killings in Chelmno and, if those documents are connected in any way, then I fully accept that and that is a logical interpretation. Secondly, my wartime German medical dictionary says "ofen" is a stove. That is a translation for it. So it is not actually in the form of a grating which would be gussen in German, I believe. So I think, although I am quite prepared to accept Professor van Pelt's interpretation of that document, not being aware of the surrounding foliage of the documents which Professor van Pelt has, this, your Lordship will appreciate, is rather the position I have . P-110 been in. Some of the documents, I have been aware of the surrounding document foliage which gives colour to particular translations. I am perfectly prepared to accept the interpretation of that word in any case. We were looking at section 5 called "confessions" of your report. You quote the testimony given in a later trial of the man called Mulka, who was on Hess's staff, who assigned some of these driving permits. I do not know the page number. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Perhaps the defendants can help? MR RAMPTON: We are going to try. MR IRVING: These permits were provided to the prosecution in the so-called Auschwitz Frankfurt trial. A. I have found the thing, by the way. It is page 320 in my edition. MR JUSTICE GRAY: 514 I was going to offer, but we will try to look at 320 first. MR IRVING: These were submitted as evidence in the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial and Mulka was cross-examined. The presiding judge on this occasion asked him about these slips: "Accused Mulka, have you signed permissions for trips to Dessau? (Mulka) I only remember one occasion. A permission was signed by Glucks and at the left bottom countersigned by me. It concerned a disinfection means. (Question) Here it reads 'For the resettlement of the . P-111 Jews' -- one of documents which I produced, my Lord -- and 'In confirmation of the copy Mulka'. You knew what the resettlement of the Jews meant? (Mulka) Yes, that was known to me. (Q) And what were those materials for the resettlement of the Jews? (Mulka) (silently) -- I am not sure how one can do that -- Yes, raw materials. (Q) All right then. That was thus Zyklon-B? (Mulka) (even more silently) Yes, Zyklon-B". Of course, that is a rather odd kind of examination by the presiding judge, is it not, Professor van Pelt? You would have expected, certainly if Mr Justice Gray had been presiding there, he would have asked the obvious follow up question, what was it going to be used for? Either it was not asked, or it was not recorded, or you did not tell us? A. Now. There are no dots in paragraph. The original page is in the binder so you can check the original page, if I have quoted the thing as a whole or if I have left something out, but I can assure you, my Lord, that I quoted the whole passage. So the third kind of option I would reject out of hand. I think that probably the problem in this court was that people knew too well what these words meant and what was implied by the question, and that they did not find it necessary to be very specific about it. If I had been the judge, I probably would have asked one more extra question, but the judge . P-112 did not do it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: In other words, there is some force in Mr Irving's point? I think you are conceding that? A. Yes. MR IRVING: I am not for one moment implying, and I want to make it quite plain, that Professor van Pelt has omitted any response or any subsequent question which was material to this issue, but it is a rather odd kind of examination, that the presiding judge did not say, "And what were these materials to be used for to your certain knowledge", whereupon Mulka could either say, "Oh, they were going to be used for fumigation or they were going to be used for killing human beings". It is a negative piece of evidence and I will now ask Professor van Pelt, of these five tonnes of Zyklon-B pellets, or over five tonnes, that were picked up on a trip like this, in your estimation how much would be used for fumigation purposes? In other words, for innocent life saving purposes as opposed to homicidal purposes? What kind of percentage? A. That is very difficult to say. I have submitted to the court a document in which I calculate, on the basis of the figures for 1943, the likely use of Zyklon-B in Auschwitz. This is the supplement to the expert's opinion. I am happy to go through those figures. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, part I of the blue file. A. I am happy to go through those figures because, if you . P-113 want me to be very specific, I can be very specific, and I made quite detailed calculations. Of course the question depends on how large is the camp at the time, how many prisoners are there at the time, how many delousing installations are available in the camp at the time, what kind of transports are coming in, and so on. MR IRVING: Let us see if you can talk in round figures. If it was being used for fumigation purposes, it would be used for two fumigation purposes, would it not, for fumigating barracks and for fumigating clothing and objects, shall we say? A. Yes, you are right. Q. For that purpose they had a purpose built fumigation chamber in Auschwitz, the one that we have seen with the blue stains on the outside walls? A. There are a number of them, in fact. There was one building ---- Q. B W 5? A. Also in Auschwitz I there was a building with two fumigation rooms but they were probably used consecutively in Auschwitz. Then there was a fumigation or delousing facility in Canada I which we discussed yesterday, where the hair was found and we have a fumigation capability in Zyklon, I am now talking only about Zyklon, in Birkenhau, in the women's camp. Q. What other kind of fumigation equipment did they have . P-114 apart from Zyklon? Did they have any other equipment at any time in Auschwitz and Birkenhau? A. Do you mean toxic equipment? Q. Any kind of methods of killing pests. A. The preferred method, if they could do that, they would really prefer, was either by hot air or hot steam. Q. Would not hot steam have a bad effect on textiles? A. That was one of many of the prisoners, inmates. They complained that always, when their prisoner clothing had been disinfected, had come back from the so-called Entwesungsanlage as they were called, indeed they had shrunk considerably. This is a continuous problem in the history of the camp. Q. So the entwesungsanlage is a familiar concept to you, then, that German word? It is disinfestation equipment? A. Yes. Q. Is it also familiar to you that, at a relatively late stage in the war years, the Siemens Company were installing an electrical system of pest killing based on microwave? A. Yes, kurzwelle Entlausungsanlage. Q. The short wave disinfestation equipment? A. Yes. Q. This was rather like a microwave cooker for cooking the insects basically? A. I do not exactly know the technology but I trust your . P-115 description. Q. This was basically a high voltage system using a lot of electric power that was going to be installed in Birkenhau? A. It was going to be installed but, as far as I know, it actually never was installed. Q. It arrived. It was delivered. A. It was actually meant for Auschwitz I. What happened was that in Auschwitz I a very large Zyklon-B delousing installation was created at the aufnahmegebaude which is the reception building for prisoners. There were 19 standard delousing cells, each of 10 cubic metres which uses two hundred grammes of Zyklon-B, the smallest tin, and as this building was being completed, the SS decided to change the method of disinfection in those cells, at least in four of those cells. There were 19 so 15 would remain Zyklon-B, and four of them would be the Siemens. Q. What word would they use to describe that kind of room or building? Would it be a Vergasungsraum or a Vergasungskeller? A. In general these rooms are called Gaskammer. Q. They are also called Gaskammer? A. Yes. In 1944, however, I have to go because in 1944 actually the language changes. They called them normal Gaskammer, which means on the type sheets which were produced by the SS and, if you allow me, my Lord, I will . P-116 just make ----
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