Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day021.15
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   MR IRVING:  My Lord, the content is referenced on page 277.
        The broadcast, while it spoke of the "justifiable and
        comprehensible public indignation of the murder, it
        strictly forbade all further actions against the Jews and
        it was repeated at hourly intervals and printed in next
        day's party newspapers", which is how we know the text.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  277 of what?
   MR IRVING:  My Goebbels biography, I am sorry, my Lord.
   A.   It would help if I could see the text.
   Q.   Of the newspaper repetition of the broadcast?
   A.   No, does that ----
   MR RAMPTON:  May I suggest item 23 on page 10?  I do not know
        if this is right or not.  This is sheer guesswork on my
        part.  "Rundgruff" which I think is a broadcast.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that might be right, yes.
   MR IRVING:  Can I, in preference to the recommendation by
        Mr Rampton, ask you to look again at that document in my
        bundle?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I am going to ask the witness whether
        he thinks that 23A Mr Rampton just pointed out is, in
        fact, the broadcast.  The only problem is it goes out in
        the afternoon.

.          P-135

   A.   Yes, at 4 o'clock.
   Q.   Oh, that is a reference to that.
   MR IRVING:  Can we now look it document?
   A.   If it will assist, it is the news, the official German
        news agency.  It does not actually say that it is a
        broadcast.
   MR IRVING:  Can I now ask you to look at the document ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we go just quickly through it?  Can you
        give us the gist of it in a sentence?
   A.   Yes.   Dr Goebbels, let it be known that the justifiable
        anger of the German people over the murder of vom Rath has
        been expressed in a previous -- in last night.  In many
        places in the Reich there were acts of revenge against
        Jewish buildings and shops, but there is now the whole,
        the whole population is now strictly ordered not to
        attempt any further demonstrations and actions.  The final
        answer to the assassination in Paris will be a legal one".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Looking at page 277 of Mr Irving's book - ---
   MR IRVING:  It appears to be the same.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- it is plainly a reference to the same
        broadcast, well, the same communication, but it is
        differently timed which makes me ask you what exactly are
        we looking at?  Document 23?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is that authoritative or not?
   A.   It is an authoritative official circular, "Rundgruff" is a

.          P-136

        kind of circular call, really, of the official German news
        agency in Berlin, at 4 o'clock on 10th November -- well,
        the title, to be precise, says:  "On the afternoon of 10th
        November".  Then the footnote in this edition of the
        document says it is at 4 o'clock.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I am sorry, Mr Irving, but that may have
        clarified that point.
   MR IRVING:  Well, it would have clarified it even better if the
        witness had looked at the document at which you were
        looking at previously, the 10th November, in the little
        bundle I gave you.  If you look at the big block of text
        at the bottom, the message from Dr Goebbels?
   A.   Wait a minute now.  Sorry, I have too many bundles.  Which
        collection is this?
   Q.   The one after the Anordnumg again?
   A.   Is that this one?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   With the green ----
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Page?
   Q.   It is in chronological order.  10th November 1938.  That
        is the one there.  A big block of text?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Beginning at the bottom ----
   A.   "Strengvertraulich", yes?
   Q.   [German - documents not provided]  "I draw attention to my

.          P-137

        announcement made today concerning the ending of the
        anti-Jewish demonstrations and actions" ----
   A.   That is right, yes.
   Q.   --- which have already been announced via press and
        radio", is that correct?
   A.   That is right, yes.
   Q.   That establishes that this came after the press and radio
        announcements?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So you are prepared to accept, are you, that there had
        been an earlier radio broadcast?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   By Dr Goebbels?
   A.   Quite obviously, yes.
   Q.   And the fact that the information on that and the disks
        are referenced by the neo-Nazi extreme right winger
        anti-Semite, Ingrid Weckert, is neither here nor there.
        So you accept, therefore, you are wrong probably to
        challenge my time of 10 a.m.?
   A.   No, not at all.  Where does it say on this document or any
        document that we have seen that it was at 10 a.m.?  What
        is your evidence, Mr Irving, for the fact that this went
        out ----
   Q.   If this source is right about everything else ----
   A.   May I just say what I want to say, please?  What is your
        evidence, Mr Irving, for saying that this went out at 10

.          P-138

        a.m.?  All you have is a reference to Ingrid Weckert.
   Q.   Which is a source you are not prepared to accept, although
        she is right on everything else?
   A.   I beg your pardon?  I do not think she is at all.
   Q.   As far as this particular matter is concerned?
   A.   Your reference to that is the broadcast as recounted by
        Ingrid Weckert at 10 a.m. and I am saying that I have not
        seen yet any evidence to suggest it was at 10 a.m.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just ask you this?  The Rundgruff that
        goes out at, apparently, 4 o'clock makes an announcement
        in the name of Dr Goebbels?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Can you comment, as a matter of likelihood, as to whether
        if that goes out at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and
        bearing in mind what is going on throughout Germany, it
        would have, in fact, followed an announcement made six
        hours earlier?  That is not very well put, that question.
        Do you understand what I am getting at?
   A.   Yes, I do.  It seems somewhat unlikely.  It is a long gap.
   Q.   Because, in effect, they would be sitting on their hands
        for six hours?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  Is it right that the passage I just drew your
        attention to makes reference to the announcements that
        have already been made through press and radio?

.          P-139

   A.   Yes, yes, we have said that.
   Q.   And it does not say "just recently made through press and
        radio"?
   A.   "Already" it says.
   Q.   Is there any reason why they would have sat on their hands
        all day until 4 p.m.
   A.   I cannot think of one.
   Q.   Yes, but you accept that the meeting between Dr Goebbels
        and Hitler was some time in the morning?
   A.   No.  It seems that they communicate -- that they had two
        communications, one of which, it seems, was probably by
        telephone at some time in the morning, and that is,
        according to the Goebbels diaries, where he says, you
        know, "What to do now, that is the question", and it
        clearly ----
   Q.   So you now concede that they did telephone.
   A.   Yes, I do not think I have ever said that they did not,
        not in the middle of the night, but in the morning.  Here
        we are.  Goebbels diary says:  "Let the beatings continue
        or stop them.  That is now the question."  And then he has a ----
   Q.   What is the German for "Let the beatings continue" since
        we are there?  "Weiter Schlagen lossen"?
   A.   I would have to see the text, I am afraid.  I can look it
        up, if you like?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think it is really necessary.

.          P-140

   MR IRVING:  No, it is unimportant. No.  Just a question on the
        translation again.
   A.   "Hauen", I think, is it "Weiter Hauen"?  That is from
        memory though.
   Q.   So on the balance of probabilities ----
   A.   And then -- can I just say my -----
   Q.   --- if we now string together the sequence of events - ---
   A.   Sorry, I have not been able to answer your ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, you are talking over Professor
        Evans time and again.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I began speaking before he interrupted.
   A.   I am trying to answer your question, Mr Irving.  Now, my
        view of the sequence of events is that on the morning of
        10th November there is a conversation, looks like a phone
        conversation, between Hitler and Goebbels, where they
        discuss what to do and ----
   MR IRVING:  Why do you think it was in the morning?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Will you stop interrupting, Mr Irving,
        please.  Just let the witness complete an answer.
   A.   And they then decide, then Goebbels drafts the order.
        They meet in the Osteria restaurant, probably for lunch,
        and then after that the order is drafted and it is sent
        out in the afternoon.  That is my reading of the sequence
        of events.
   MR IRVING:  The timing is immaterial, is it not?
   A.   No.  The time is not really immaterial.  I mean, we know

.          P-141

        that the pogrom did not start until about 8 o'clock in the
        morning in Vienna, for example ----
   Q.   What we can say with certainty ----
   A.   --- that orders were going out from Dalueges at 20 past 6
        to get the pogrom going so that it was still in full swing
        in the early hours of the morning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I think I have the -- I am not
        interrupting; I am just simply telling you that I think
        I have the point on the timing of the events of 10th.
   MR IRVING:  The timing is not very important, I appreciate, my
        Lord, but now let me go on to ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, we have spent quite a long time on it.
   MR IRVING:  --- the motivation, that, in other words, at some
        time between midnight and the Osteria meeting, a phone
        call had occurred between Hitler and Goebbels, is that right?
   A.   No, I do not accept it is as broad a time frame as that.
        This is the ----
   Q.   I think his Lordship has said that the time is
        unimportant.
   A.   --- what we are talking -- may I finish my answer,
        Mr Irving?  What this is, this is the final order putting
        the stop to the pogrom and saying that, "Now there will be
        legal measures to kind of back it up".  It is saying to
        everybody, "Stop", and this really is the order from
        Hitler and Goebbels, agreed between them, saying, "Don't

.          P-142

        not do anything more of any sort.  The whole thing has got
        to stop".
                  Now, since orders were going out from Hess, for
        example, at 2.56 which made it quite clear at that time
        that the action should, the pogrom should continue, as we
        have already seen this morning, it is very unlikely that
        this order to stop it all was issued before 2.56.  In
        addition, there are further orders that go out after 2.56.
   MR IRVING:  From where?
   A.   From Daluege, for one, and that there is plenty of
        evidence that this -- many contemporary reports which
        indicate that the pogrom was continuing through the
        daylight hours of the morning of 10th.  So I think the
        time frame for this order is some time in the afternoon of
        the 10th, and it looks like, because it refers to a
        previous broadcast which seems to have been made at
        4 o'clock, that it is round about 4 o'clock or shortly
        after that.  Certainly, the evidence seems to be that then
        although there were, sporadic actions did continue after
        that, that the main action then came to a stop.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.  Shall we move on to the next aspect?
   MR IRVING:  This is why you attach importance and not accepting
        the 10 a.m. timing, is that correct?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, we are moving on now, Mr Irving.
   MR IRVING:  Well, my Lord, you interrupted the questions I was
        about to put to him and invited him to continue speaking.

.          P-143

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, if it is about the next topic, fine,
        but if it is not, I really think we have had enough on the
        sequence of events.
   MR IRVING:  So Hitler invited Goebbels to come to him bringing
        a prepared order stopping everything?
   A.   I have already said that it looks as if they decided there
        should be a prepared order in a phone conversation some
        time in the morning of 10th, that they met in the Osteria
        restaurant, Goebbels had a drafted order which they then
        agreed would be sent out.
                  I have to say, Mr Irving, one of the reasons why
        this is taking so long is that you are constantly asking
        the same questions again and again and again, and I have
        to give the same answers again and again.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And I am asking you to move on.  Please,
        Mr Irving, move on.
   MR IRVING:  I do not really wish to be lectured by the witness
        on how I conduct my cross-examination.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, take the lecture from me and please,
        please, move on.
   MR IRVING:  So what dispute do you have with -- and this is
        serious -- the way that I described this particular matter then?

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