Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.08
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   MR IRVING:  My Lord, that photograph is not actually on the
        stage.  It is somewhere in the audience or in the
        auditorium.
   A.   Excuse me.  You are right.  He is right.  It is not on
        stage, but it is staged.

                  (The video continued)

        They are singing the first verse of the national anthem
        that is, since 45, forbidden.  It refers to the Reich in
        the space of the Reich (German).  That is a clear cut ----
   THE INTERPRETER:  From the river Mars to the River Memel.
   A.   One river is in Belgium.  The other river is north to East
        Prussia.  Because of that and the first beginning of this
        first verse, Deutschland uberalles, Germany above all, the
        first verse of the national anthem is forbidden since
        decades, so this is a clear cut attempt to attack it.
   MR RAMPTON:  Do you mean it is forbidden by law?

.          P-65



   A.   It is forbidden by law.
   Q.   And has been since 1945?
   A.   Not 1945, but early on in the Federal Republic

                        (The video continued)

        You see again both, to the left Ewald Althans and on the
        right Christian Worch.  This is, I would interpret, a
        telling picture of the organizational activities and
        activists.  I think this person -- excuse me -- but I am
        not totally ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you are not totally sure I do not think
        ----
   A.   Not totally sure.  This is again Staglich and then the
        next, it is Karl Philipps, this one, so far.  I know but,
        because I do not know him personally and I have just some
        photos, I am very cautious, but I think, as this is told
        in the TV, this is Thomas Heinke, the chief of a skinhead
        faction, very violent activists group in Beiderfeld, this
        is in north west Germany.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How do you know it is Heinke?
   A.   It is said by different sources, and by those who did the
        Michael Schmidt film, who helped to do the Michael Schmidt
        film, so one of the best experts I had, I must say.

                  (The video continued).

   MR RAMPTON:  Can we stop there please?  Do you know what is
        taking place here?  This looks like a march?
   A.   Yes.  This is a debated march to the Feltan Halle of the

.          P-66



        21st April Congress, and it was then later on cut by
        police intervention.
   MR IRVING:  Can I ask you if you ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you will have your chance, Mr Irving.
   MR IRVING:  It is important we should know if they are marching
        northwards or southwards, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You mean to or from the conference hall?  Do
        you know the answer to that.
   MR IRVING:  Is that the Vienna Strasse in Munich.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you know whether they are going to the
        conference or away from it?
   A.   They go away from the conference, but I do not know to
        what direction, north, south, because I am not familiar
        with Munich.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.  Let us get on with this.

                  (The video continued)

        Here, stop, please.  Back a bit, if I may ask that.
   A.   This is again Michael Kuhnen, so you see here both of
        them.  We are talking about twenty minutes or an hour ago,
        on the one hand David Irving and here Michael Kuhnen.
   MR IRVING:  Can I ask you again, can you recognize whether
        I was walking northwards up Vienna Strasse from the
        background there?
   A.   As I said, I am not familiar with----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, you will have your chance.  Can
        you just sit patiently.

.          P-67



   A.   Here you see the Reichskriegsflagge.
   MR RAMPTON:  You will have to explain Reichskriegsflagge,
        strictly speaking, because this is an English court.
   A.   Shall I do it now?
   Q.   Yes because we are going to see it again.  Pause.  Down in
        the bottom left hand corner of the picture there is a flag
        with an eagle in it.  Right?
   A.   Yes.  Right.
   Q.   Yes.  It is easy for you now.  Reichskriegsflagge is what?
   A.   This is a flag that was used by nationalists before the
        First World War, and during the Weimer republic, but it is
        here, you see there Michael Kuhnen, and there the
        Reichskriegsflagge.  Michael Kuhnen, for example, said
        that we use this flag as long as we cannot use the
        swastika.
   Q.   Just so that we get it right, a Reichskriegsflagge is a
        Reichs war flag, is that right?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   Thank you very much.
   A.   You know the German Nationalists, before the National
        Socialists came to influence in the late 20s, they were
        very anti-democratic in their own ideas, to a degree
        anti-Semitic too, and of course, especially before the
        First World War, very much war mongering.  So this is a
        kind of reference to these kind of ideas.

                  (The video continued).

.          P-68



   MR IRVING:  That again does not appear to come from the
        Dispatches programme, my Lord.  There was no commentary of
        any kind.  It appears to have been just glued together
        from various odd bits and pieces.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that right?
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  I did not do it, but I am bound to say I find
        these repeated attacks on the integrity of my junior and
        my solicitors perfectly absurd.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think it is attack on anyone's integrity.
   MR RAMPTON:  Of course it is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If your instructions are, or you are told by
        Miss Rogers that that does come from Dispatches, for my
        part, I would accept it straightaway.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am told it is all part of the same occasion and
        this is what the Professor says.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is all part of the Dispatches programme?
        That is the point.
   MR RAMPTON:  Is it?  Somebody must know the answer.  I did not
        do it.
   A.   I know.  Can I say?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You had better wait and see.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is partly from the actual programme and it is
        partly from what I think are called the rushes, the uncut
        material taken on the same occasion.  If Mr Irving says
        this is not Munich on 21st April 1990, let him say so.

.          P-69



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is Dispatches material, but it was but
        not actually part of the broadcast?
   MR RAMPTON:  It was stuff that was not transmitted, yes.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, of course, the point I am making is that,
        if there is cross cutting to indicate there are people
        over there and I am over there, and there is subsequent,
        quite clearly from the quality of the film footage, they
        are taken on different cameras.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, what I have said is that these
        films are going to be admitted for the purpose of
        demonstrating, if they do demonstrate it, who was present
        at meetings at which you spoke or were present yourself.
   MR IRVING:  I am aware of that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that should be the limit of it.  Are
        we finished with Munich?
   MR RAMPTON:  I think we are finished with Munich.  I use
        Mr Irving's words in a minute.  There is an aspect of this
        on which I also rely.  It is not simply who else was
        there, and I have said this before, and what was said by
        the various people, including Mr Irving, which is
        obviously important because we are talking about groups of
        like minded people, it is, to use Mr Irving's phrase, the
        rabble rousing element of it, which one will see very
        clearly when one comes to Halle.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When Mr Irving can be seen to be present and
        involved, yes.

.          P-70



   MR RAMPTON:  Rabble rousing.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Otherwise no.  I think that must be the
        distinction.
   MR RAMPTON:  You will see the rabble.  When you get to Halle,
        you will see the skinhead rabble and then you will see
        Mr Irving standing on a scaffold rousing the rabble.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is a film made by Mr Irving himself,
        I think.  It comes from his own video, my Lord, called
        "Ich komme wieder".  It has probably been edited out of
        existence.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is this?
   MR RAMPTON:  Passau.  This is No. 3, Passau DVU. It is very short.

                  (The video continued)

   A.   This is Gerhard Frey, this person.
   Q.   That is Gerhard Frey.
   A.   Yes, this person in the middle here.  Left to the -- no,
        right from here, right to David Irving, there you see
        David Irving and on the right you see next to the middle
        Gerhard Frey, the DVU chief, the chief of the German
        Volksunion, of the Deutsche Volksunion, the leader.

                        (The video continued)

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is it.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Was that Passau in '87 or?

.          P-71



   MR RAMPTON:  Yes?
   A.   No, not in '87.
   MR RAMPTON: '91?
   A.   In '91.
   MR RAMPTON:  The next one, my Lord, is the long one, the
        Leuchter Congress.  I would like the people in charge of
        the machine to zip through -- I do not want a whole lot of
        speeches.
   A.   Yes, I agree.
   Q.   A whole lot of speeches from this group, just to know who
        they are and get a flavour of the occasion.
   A.   This is Ewald Althans.  It is before the museum in Munich.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the date of this?
   A.   23rd March '91.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can you pause there a moment?  I would like to
        tell his Lordship or I will ask a question, who made this tape?
   A.   It is shown in the beginning, it is Samisdart(?).  This is
        the name of the Samisdart publisher, Ernst Zundel, in
        Canada.
   Q.   Zundel?
   A.   Zundel.
   Q.   Commercially made, was it?
   A.   It was -- it was remade for publishing.
   Q.   Yes.

.          P-72



   A.   So it was cut and there are written things on it, so if
        you are interested we can go into details, but...
   Q.   Excuse me, this is a film made by Mr Zundel for his own
        purposes, professionally made, so it has been cut and edited?
   A.   Exactly.
   Q.   And was it to be sold and distributed to the world at
        large or whoever wanted it?
   A.   I am not sure if it is only for limited purposes, of
        limited audiences and publics, I do not know.
   Q.   But the important thing about this is it is Zundel's
        document?
   A.   Exactly.
   Q.   It was disclosed by Mr Irving and so far -- you have seen
        it before.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The Defendants have not tampered with it?
   A.   The Defendants?
   Q.   Tampered, fiddled?
   A.   No, no, it is just by Zundel.
   Q.   It is an entire Zundel document?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   Thank you very much.
   A.   This is Mrs Von Tonningen.  This is a person from the
        Netherlands, a networker of high skills, very identified
        with the National Socialist cause.  This is the famous

.          P-73



        Ahmed Rami with his very anti-Semitic speech.  This is the
        translator.  It is Bouffeur from France who is also active
        in the revisionist scene.
                  This is another translator, Fritz Becker from
        Einshaus.  Henry Rock, he is a stated, he is an author, a
        Gerstein expert and editor of the French Zeitschift Review
        D'histoire Revisionist.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, can I draw your attention to say that so
        far we have not seen my face once on the screen yet.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I was looking out for you.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  You will recognise me when I come.

                  (The video continued)

   A.   Can I ----
   THE INTERPRETER:  Since we are playing the sound, would you
        like a running translation of it?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I think we are not going to do it that way.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  We will get it transcribed and translated in
        each case.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is the right way.
   MR RAMPTON:  We might have had enough of this.
   MR IRVING:  I was enjoying that!
   MR RAMPTON:  Could we fast forward, please, since we do not
        know what he is saying?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think, from what I could gather,
        there was very much that was of any particular materiality

.          P-74



        it is a chronicle of the ----
   MR RAMPTON:  On this occasion it may be more a question of who
        else was there.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is the point, is it not?
   MR RAMPTON:  And what they were saying.

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