Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.20 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. Have you read in the police dossier the words, "Michael Schmidt has come forward and volunteered to us a video which he took at the Lowenbrau meeting? . P-177 A. This is a different, this a different, you know, what is it, observation. That does not include that he is paid or whatever integrated in this secret or police system. Q. You referred repeatedly in your report to that fact that in the written agreements between myself and Dr Frey it was stated in writing that I would not talk about the Holocaust in any of my talks? A. Yes, Frey again and again reiterated that. He may have had reasons. I do not know. Q. Yes. Well, can you speculate on what the reason would be, possible reasons? A. You were there too. The one is not to be illegalized; the other is that you may depart from it. Q. Would you agree that the more likely reason is in the German climate, that even though neither of us intended, neither Dr Frey nor I, should speak about that subject, it would be alleged against us by malicious parties and we wanted it therefore to be set out in writing that that was not an agreed topic, and that this is the reason why it was fixed every time in writing between us? A. It seems ---- Q. So we could not be tricked. A. It seems the case. Q. Yes, and using your own political nouse, your ability, your acumen, would you agree that this is probably the more likely conclusion on the basis of the correspondence . P-178 as you have read it? A. It does not defer from what I wrote or did I get it wrong? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you are all agreed. It was a precaution that he took to protect himself, his party and indeed Mr Irving from being prosecuted. MR IRVING: It was a precaution we both took, my Lord. Can I add another question as rider? Have you seen any reference or indication of the fact that at any of the DVU meetings I departed from that agreement and that I spoke Holocaust denial? A. I mean there was the quarrel between Mr Frey and Mr Irving with respect to the other activities you took at that period of time, and that was also in relation to the, to quote, "Hitler and Jews" thing. So this made him concerned that you will lose the ability, that Mr Irving, so to speak, lose the ability to stay freely and to speak freely in Germany and he lost. Q. Yes, but will you now please answer my question because it is important. Have you read any indication anywhere, in my diaries or on the speech notes or anything like that, that I spoke on Holocaust denial or the Holocaust or Auschwitz at any of the meetings that Dr Frey commissioned me to speak at? A. So far as I recall not, no. Q. And the same goes for anti-Semitism of course, that I did . P-179 not go vapouring on against the Jews at any of these meetings? A. So far as I see, not with respect to the DVU, but in other circumstances very different. Q. We will take each one as we come to it. In paragraph 3.4.1, and I am nearly at the end, you say that I was a main speaker for the DVU? A. Yes. Q. Is not the correct way to say it in fact that I was speaker frequently hired by the DVU as an historian, that I never spoke for them? I was not a spokesman for them? A. You were a star speaker used by the political party for political aims. Q. Why do you call me an agitator for the DVU in that same paragraph, an agitator? A. Because of that. Q. Would you like to justify the last sentence beginning, "The DVU is itself a party that propagates hatred against foreigners, an-Semitism, revisionism, incites violence"? Is this not again an example of your loose writing, you just throw these things in there? A. Not with respect to the DVU. As I stated it before, you did not do that. Is it is very interesting to describe this. The speaker, Irving, is cautious in sticking to the law as he can with respect to the DVU, but the DVU itself is taking him as a star speaker, and representing their . P-180 cause or its cause as an anti-Semitic, right-wing extremist, and often denialist, as you can see in the newspapers and as are referred to by the articles thing. So it is a kind of mutual interaction with often very cautious tactic lines. Q. But, Professor Funke, each of those activities or agitation factors that you list there, propagating hatred against foreigners, anti-Semitism, inciting violence, each of those would be an illegal activity if it was true. So why was the DVU never prosecuted, as you say it was not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: You asked that before. MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, but I wanted to underlined the point, if the DVU is accused in that sentence of conducting these activities, it seems highly improbable given that they were never prosecuted. A. Again, Mr Irving took sides with this extremist party, and I can go into details of how intense anti-Semitic party members and the newspapers are. There is no doubt about that. Q. But not in the extreme form. A. The other part of the answer is that that does not mean that this party is illegal, because of the special importance parties, as parties, were given by the constitutional law as a reaction to the period before, and that includes that the political party has a special - --- THE INTERPRETER: A right to participate. . P-181 A. --- stated by the constitutional law directly. So it is very difficult to push aside parties when they not only claim but by their structure are parties, although they may not be in the internal structure democratic ones. This is why at the beginning it was so extended to describe the specifics of the German political system and the right-wing extremist cause they have to fight. MR IRVING: I think it would be easier to deal with personalities tomorrow, my Lord, because the organizations are clearly problem. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that I have some idea of the timing, how much cross-examination? MR IRVING: I have one more day at this rate, less than a day. MR JUSTICE GRAY: A day of cross-examination of Professor Funke? MR IRVING: I think so, yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your original estimate was half a day. MR IRVING: I will abbreviate it then. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, do not do it because I say that. MR IRVING: Your Lordship is excellent at brooming me along and making me scrap hours of work. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a matter for you to take whatever course you think. MR IRVING: If I know your Lordship is not going to pay attention to those matters ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have give you a very, very clear . P-182 indication I hope of what I would be paying attention to. MR IRVING: Had I had that indication last night ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I agree, but I did not know what you were going to be asking about. 10.30 tomorrow. (The witness withdrew; The court adjourned until the following day) . P-183
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