Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.14 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 MR IRVING: If the reference is to Auschwitz, which it probably is probably is although we cannot tell from this excerpt, then that has been my position all long. The second sentence merely puts icing on the cake, if I can put it like that, does not add or subtract anything to it, to the sting. The sting is the death factories did not exist. This is a reference to Auschwitz. We are talking about Auschwitz, that is crematorium No. (ii), and I have not the slightest doubt that in my summing up, my closing speech, I shall establish that case beyond peradventure. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not know whether we have the transcript of the video? A. Yes, we have parts of the video transcribed. MR IRVING: Let me put this question to the witness; have you seen the video, or have you read the transcript? A. I saw parts of the video also, but I am not sure if I saw all, and I do not know if I got the whole text. MR IRVING: Am I right in saying that video called "I Shall Return", is an overview of the historical revisionist challenges? For example, we have film footage of Dresden . P-128 in it, do you remember that? And film footage of Dr Goebbels speaking, so it covers more than just the Holocaust, does it not? A. Also the coverage of Dresden, I do not know if this is in this case, often as Mr Evans puts it, as references to the whole procedure of the Second World War and in the top, at the top of it to the Holocaust. Q. Let me move to the question from his Lordship when we are dealing with Holocaust-related matters, am I only referring to Auschwitz or am I referring to other camps, like Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec? A. Of course you are referring to others also, of course. Q. This is your opinion or can you remember clearly or is that just ---- A. No, no, you referred to others also, of course. Q. I think we will have to ask to see the transcript or have the transcript put to me when the time comes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have got it. It is in the German. MR RAMPTON: It is a full transcript. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a free-standing sentence referring to death camps and death factories generally. I simply do not at the moment understand why you are suggesting it is limited to Auschwitz. MR IRVING: Because this video is 90 minutes long, my Lord, and not just five lines long. The part from which this is taken (and I know it very clearly) is an exposition of all . P-129 the arguments on Auschwitz, the decodes, the crematoria, coke combustion logistics and all the other matters like that. We are only dealing with that camp, and that is quite plain from the context. That is probably why only this part has been quoted. A. So if I have to answer very seriously, then I have to have this video or the text. MR IRVING: I think it will be properly put to me in cross-examination by Mr Rampton if he is confident in the other direction. MR RAMPTON: I am perfectly confident. It is not the only such statement either by any manner of means, but may I tell your Lordship that the whole of that video tape, whose authorship Mr Irving is in no position to dispute, is being translated this afternoon, and that will be ready by tomorrow. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: So on that video tape, just to ask the question again, you cannot be certain one way or the other whether I was talking only about Auschwitz or any other camps, you cannot remember? A. Again I have to go at least to some ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well... A. It does not work. I mean, I have to see the video in such or the text and I will not answer that. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, there is no need for this. I am going to . P-130 show some examples in re-examination, so the witness need not worry about it at the moment. MR IRVING: That is far more satisfactory. Page 141, we are looking now at Thies Christopherson, just drawing a line under him. You have agreed, have you not, that my relationship with Thies Christopherson has been tenuous. There have been, I think you said, one or two meetings that he organized at which I spoke, Professor Funke? A. Excuse me, I have to... I reorganized the things, so just a second. Yes? Q. Yes, you agree that Professor Christopherson organized one or perhaps two meetings at which I spoke, and that there is no other real meaningful contact between us? A. I would not say so with respect to these meetings, it is the case, but, you know, Christopherson was one of this little group of people who are actively enacting this kind of, as you call it, revisionist movement. So he was at a given moment of time very important together with Philipp and some others. Q. But my specific question was his actual meaningful contacts with me have been limited purely to the two meetings that he organized at long range, and I turned up and spoke and left, is that right? A. There are a lot of references in your diaries and interactions that is shown in the bundle. Q. The references are him inviting me to address meetings . P-131 which I then did not accept? A. Right, this is included, of course. Q. Is there anything else you wish to say about Mr Christopherson? A. I have to look at the bundle that was given, just a second. Christopherson, yes, as I said before, more Christopherson letters to the Plaintiff than the other way. Q. Yes. Can I without interrupting you now take you to 143, please, Dietler Felderer? We have not dealt with him. He was the one who Mr Rampton rightly said you could not tell whether he was a man or woman. Am I right in saying there has been no contact between Mr Felderer and myself whatsoever? A. You were both on this Leuchter Congress and, aside of that, I do not know. Q. I shall rephrase it. Has there been any meaningful contact between myself and Mr Felderer whatsoever? A. So far I think not, so far I know, I know the sources. Q. When I asked you yesterday about Mr Gottfried Kussel who is on page 144 and next on our list, I asked if you knew of any contacts between Mr Gottfried Kussel and your reply was, "I do not know"? A. No. Q. There is no mention in the diaries, right? A. Then I have to be more precise. . P-132 Q. That is what you said yesterday. A. Say it again? Q. That is what you said yesterday. Your answer was, "I do not know". A. To what question? Q. Had you any information or any evidence that there had been any contacts between me whatsoever between myself and Mr Gottfried Kussel? A. Then I have to, then I was a bit tired. To be more precise, the kind of context that you have in meetings, and I again stated it, I think, today in the morning or yesterday that it is of importance that you joined the demonstration in Halle, for example, where he was leading the demonstration. Q. What you are saying is that because he was in Halle on the same day that I was and that he was within one geographical mile of where I was, this is a meaningful contact between me and this rather unpleasant person? A. No, I have to restate it. Q. You have no evidence for any other kind of contact? A. I have to restate that this whole organization done and prepared by Christian Worch was part of the activities of the so-called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft that includes at the top of this Gesinnungsgemeinschaft of this organization of neo-Nazis, Kussel, Worch and one and two or two others. Q. So this is rather like saying that because somebody else . P-133 is member of the AA and you are a member of the AA, therefore, you are connected to that man? A. What is AA? Q. Is that what you are saying? A. If you describe your revisionist movement as an automobile club, I would say yes. Q. Well, it is the same kind of argument, is it not? A. No, it is not. You are invited ---- Q. Is that good as it gets? A. No, this is not. It is a total distortion of what all the people in the court, of the court, could have seen yesterday, and what we described at length. Q. But ---- A. That you were invited by one of the leading members of the Kuhnen connection, that is by Uschi Worch, to make a rabble rousing, as you quote yourself, rabble rousing speech to them, in a special moment of reshuffling and widening the influence of this very group. Q. That does not answer the question, does it, as to whether you have any evidence of contact meaningfully between myself and Mr Kussel himself in person which is what this is about? A. Again, I cannot say, I cannot answer this in the way you question because you cannot separate -- maybe others can, I cannot -- you cannot separate a person from a special movement and you are referring to another movement with . P-134 that is very similar. So a movement is a movement in which given persons has a special importance and especially in the parallel organization leading persons have special importance, and within this parallel organization it was Worch and Kussel and one or two others, and Worch, both Worchs, organized the meeting together with the DNP or NPD leader of this region, Dienel, and they asked you to talk at the first, as the first and most important of this whole rally. This is something different as compared to whatever, AA. Q. This is getting very tedious. You say they asked me. What evidence do you have for that statement, they asked me to speak at this meeting in Halle? A. Again one of the central persons asked you. Q. One of the people? A. Of course, yes. Q. Can I now take you to page 146, please? This is Mr Jurigen Riga -- this is going to be very brief, I hope -- you answer in one line, is there any evidence whatsoever of the slightest contact between myself and Mr Jurigen Riga, meaningful contact? A. I do not know. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not on the list actually, so you need not really trouble. MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not on the list, I do not think. . P-135 MR IRVING: Is he not on our list? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. MR RAMPTON: No. Do ask about him, I do not mind. MR IRVING: Mr Rampton did ask about him yesterday. MR RAMPTON: No. As a matter of fact, I do not think I did. I think I was told, without having asked a question, that he was the lawyer, he was the wicked neo-Nazi lawyer or something, but I am not sure my memory is right. A. He is one of the right-wing extremist lawyers, yes, you are right. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway he is not on the list. MR IRVING: Not on the list. Very well. Page 147, Wilhelm Staglich, but the question I am going to ask is going to be for a totally different reason that his Lordship will now appreciate. Your first line says: "Previous to 1945, the end of World War II, Staglich was part of a flak battery stationed for several months in Auschwitz". Will you explain what a flak battery is? Is it an anti-aircraft gun battery? Is it as part of the air defence system of a site? A. Yes. Q. Was Auschwitz exposed to air raids? A. Yes. Q. Does this mean to say that at some time previous to 1945 air defence precautions had been taken at Auschwitz? A. Yes. . P-136 Q. Are the building of air raid shelters part of air raid precautions? A. I do not know but, yes, yes. Q. Thank you very much. Michael Schwierzak, that is the next name on the list on the same page, how would you describe my contacts so far as they are known to you apart from anti-fascist literature with Mr Michael Schwierzak? A. He, I think, by the intermediation of Mr Worch invited you to speak before his little tiny group, National Offensive, down in the southern Germany. This group is part of the Kuhnen connection. Q. In other words, the invitation came from Althans and not from Schwierzak? Is that what you are saying by this complicated phrase, by the intervention of Mr Althans? What did you mean by that? A. I thought it was Worch, but correct me. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well ---- MR IRVING: Well, I do not think it is very important. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- Mr Irving, I think it would be much more helpful if you put what you say were your contacts, if any, with Mr Schwierzak. MR IRVING: Well, I thought it would just be helpful if I got a straight no from him that this is no evidence of any contact between me and Mr Schwierzak. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, there is. There is plenty. That is why I am suggesting that you put your case as to whether
Home ·
Site Map ·
What's New? ·
Search
Nizkor
© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012
This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and
to combat hatred.
Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.
As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may
include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and
provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist
and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.