Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.06
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   Can I read from the second sentence on 426?  You tell me
        whether this is right or not. "Henry Picker, who took the
        notes at the table talk of 24th July 1942, which I promise
        you we are coming to, claimed that Hitler, even in his
        private circle, had 'never forgotten to keep silent about
        things for which there was no resonance among his table
        companions as amongst the broad mass of out people"' - - it
        must be "our people", unsere volkes. "Only take the
        persecution of the Jews, which he obscured before his
        table companions with references to preparations for the
        establishment of a Jewish national state on the island of

.          P-46



        Madagascar, or alternatively in central Africa."  That was
        published in, I think, Berlin in 1997 but also in London
        in 1994?
   A.   1977.
   Q.   What?
   A.   Can we be quite plain that this is not actually wartime
        writing there?
   Q.   I realise that.
   A.   This is writing by Mr Picker 32 years after the war was
        over and the climate in German where people were put in
        prison for having the wrong opinions.  He wanted to
        publish a volume of Hitler's sayings, so he wrote a
        suitably politically correct introduction.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you tell me because I have missed it?
        Picker was what?  A secretary or something more senior?
   A.   He replaced Henry Heim as Martin Bormann's adjutant at
        Hitler's table talk, and from 1942 he took over the task
        of writing down Hitler's table conversations in this
        summary form.  He died a few years ago.  This was
        published in 1977, at the time when this persecution in
        Germany had already begun.
   MR RAMPTON:  You see, this is perhaps reflected, is it not, in
        something -- do you remember Kurt Engel?
   A.   Gebhardt Engel, Hitler's army adjutant.
   Q.   Yes.  You interviewed him, I think, in 1971 on several
        occasions?

.          P-47



   A.   On several occasions.
   Q.   This is the only version I have of it at the moment.
Do
        you have Professor Evans' supplementary or amendment
        pages?
   A.   I have received them, but I have not even had time to
look
        at them yet.  That is the 18 pages that I referred to.
   Q.   You have not got it here?
   A.   I can comment on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Put the point, Mr Rampton.  I think Mr
Irving
        is saying he can cope.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, I think he should have it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can he have a copy?
   MR RAMPTON:  I have a copy.
   A.   Thank you very much.
   Q.   Paragraph 12 on page 16, Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes.  This is the written transcript that I made after
the
        interview with Engel.
   Q.   That is what I understand.  I think I have the
original
        here.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I do not know your handwriting but this must be you.
Your
        handwriting is legible, so I can read the handwriting.
   A.   I can explain.  After every interview with one of
these
        gentleman I sat down and wrote a formal protocol on
what
        had been discussed between us.
   Q.   I think it is best if you just look at this document
that

.          P-48



        I have, so that in the transcript you have identified
it
        as your document.
   A.   Notes on the second interview with General Gerhardt
Engel
        at his office, WAH, which is an arms dealers,
Dusseldorf
        and so on, 9th December 1970.  Then it is the second
one
        that you are relying on? Notes on the interview of
General
        Gerhardt Engel at his home Dusseldorf, April 5, 1971,
in
        handwriting.
   Q.   Could I have it back?
   A.   I just want to make sure that nothing has been
omitted.
   Q.   Do check it against the typescript in case of error.
        Thank you.  I will read from your manuscript:"When I
asked
        his views on Hitler's association with Juden Hausroten
(?)
        he confirmed broadly Carl Wolf's statements, and added
        that the Fuhrerbefallen," that means Fuhrer orders.
   A.   Is it?  Can I check that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It must be, from the sense.  It is in the
        singular but it must really be the plural.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is not just one Fuhrer order throughout
the
        war, is there?  It has an E on the end.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It has not in Professor Evans?
   A.   I accept that it should have an E on the end.
   MR RAMPTON:  It has in the manuscript. That is why I am
glad I
        have the manuscript. "Frequently resulted from remarks
F,
        that is Fuhrer, made at his late discussions, vo
'Hitler
        dutzierte stundenlang' (?).  That should have a small
S,

.          P-49



        should it?  Yes, it is an adverb.  He referred to the
        Hewell tagerbruf (?) as proof."  That means Hitler
just
        rattled on for a long time.  That is all that means,
is it
        not? "He never summarized the conclusions of these
        discussions.  Each was left to pick his own meat from
the
        talk, Himmler in his way quiet but efficient, (that
was
        how the three quarters of a million strong Waffen (?)
SS
        had been born and Bormann more crudely issuing edicts
on
        party notepaper beginning der Fuhrer hat befallen"
etc.
        That is exactly what would have happened?
   A.   Yes.  You note incidentally that this is part of my
        collection in Munich which I no longer have access to.
   Q.   We must have got this from Munich I suppose?
   A.   It has come from the Institute in Munich as part of
the
        early collection which is now denied to me.
   Q.   If you would like copies of these, we can certainly
give
        them to you.
   A.   Very generous of you.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the point on this?
   MR RAMPTON:  The point on this is that what Engel is saying
        there reflects what Picker has said in 19 whenever it
was
        after the war, that if there are a lot of people, or
even
        a few people, unless they are the two or three high
        ranking people alone, Hitler would use euphemism.  He
        would use a sort of a thought process.  To Himmler,
for
        example, Siberia would mean extermination.  To
somebody

.          P-50



        else who was not in the know it might mean Siberia.
Do
        you follow me?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that really right?  Picker is talking
        about euphemisms, but Engel is talking about something
        rather different.  That is how a Hitler order emerges.
Is
        that not a different point?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is part of the same process.
   A.   It is a very clear picture, in fact, those two lines,
of
        how these Himmler orders emerged, that Bormann would
be
        hanging around in the background with a note pad
writing
        things down, and eventually an order would be drafted,
        sent out as the Fuhrer has ordered, and sometimes it
was
        not what Hitler had ordered at all.  There are famous
        examples where Hitler learned of these orders months
later
        and said,"Who ordered this?"
   Q.   I am sure that from time to time people got the wrong
end
        of the stick but, if Hitler is talking about
evacuation of
        the Jews at one of these table talks and is saying,
"we
        must get on with it" for example, then Himmler will
know
        exactly what Hitler is talking about, and Hitler does
not
        have to talk about extermination, does he?
   A.   Mr Rampton, it is precisely why not only I question
but
        also the allied interrogators questioned all these
        surviving members of Hitler's staff very closely on
this
        very point.  How much discussion was there, whether
veiled
        or otherwise?  I have to say that I am not saying
there

.          P-51



        was no discussion.  There is one famous episode, if I
can
        just relate for two minute, where Hitler's film camera
man
        personally witnessed a mass shooting of the Jews
outside
        Minsk in August 1941.  He had been there with Himmler.
He
        is still alive.  I am the one who weedled this story
out
        of him.  He came back to Hitler's headquarters with
the
        photographs in his camera.  He showed the photographs
to
        General Schmundt, Hitler's wehrmacht adjutant, and
        Schmundt said to him, "If you know what is good for
you,
        you will destroy these photographs", which is what I
put
        in my book also.  What do you make of a statement like
        that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I go back to where we started and ask
you
        whether you do or not accept that Picker is giving an
        accurate portrayal of talk within Hitler's private
circle
        when he says that there is an element of camouflaging
        about the language that was used.
   Q.   I do not accept that, my Lord.  I fully accept his
        transcripts that are published as transcripts in his
        volume, which is very similar to the table talks but
in
        the third person instead of being in the first person.
   Q.   That is not really answering my point.
   A.   I am just about to answer, my Lord.  What has been
quoted
        from, the passage you are asking me about, is not
written
        during the war.  It is written in 1977, when the
climate
        of fear in Germany has grown to such an extent that

.          P-52



        everybody who wants to write a book about Adolf Hitler
has
        to put in a politically correct introduction to make
sure
        it gets past the census.  In Germany they have a book
        censorship body which burns books and closes down
        bookstores and arrests authors.  In order to make sure
you
        get past this book censorship body in modern Germany,
you
        put in politically correct statements in order to
avoid
        trouble.  This is a typical example of the kind of
        politically correct statement to which I would attach
no
        evidentiary weight whatsoever without supporting
material.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is clear answer.  Thank you very
much.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am still on table talks Mr Irving.  In
Hitler's
        War 1991, there is a reference on page The gulf
between
        the actual atrocities in the east, and what Hitler
knew or
        said about them, widened.  Over lunch on May 15 Hitler
        again merely spoke to staff about transporting the
Jews
        eastward;  her referred indignantly to the misplaced
        sympathies of the bourgeoisie.  How well the Jews were
        faring, he remarked, compared with the German
emigrants of
        the nineteenth century - many of whom had even died on
        route to Australia!  Goebbels, unhappy that forty
thousand
        Jews still remained in'his' Berlin, raised the subject
at
        lunch with Hitler on the twenty-ninth. ('I once again
        inform the Fuhrer on my plan to evacuate every single
Jew
        from Berlin...')  Hitler merely expatiated on the best
        post-war homeland for the Jews.  Siberia was out- that

.          P-53



        would just produce an even tougher baccilus strain of
        Jews;  Palestine was out too- the Arabs did not want
them;
        perhaps central Africa?  At all events, he summed up,
        western Europe must be liberated of its Jews - there
could
        be no homeland for them there.  As late as July 24
Hitler
        was still referring at table to his plan to transport
the
        Jews to Madagascar - by now already in British hands-
or
        some other Jewish national home after the war was
over."
        So you there, as it were, made use of four different
        records?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The table talk of the 15th May, Goebbels' diary of
30th
        May?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The table talk of 29th May?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And the table talk of 24th July?
   A.   Yes.  The Goebbels' diary of May 30th would refer of
        course to the events of May 29th.
   Q.   That is absolutely right.  I would like you again, if
you
        will, to look at the supplement to Professor Evans'
report
        where you will see I think on page 8, starting under
the
        cross line, a rather fuller translation of Goebbels'
diary
        entry for 30th May 1942.  To save my voice and with
his
        Lordship's permission, it is quite a long passage, I
would
        ask you to read the English.  If you have any problems

.          P-54



        with it, the German is printed underneath.  Starting
with
        the small type on page 8 and ending with the words
"here
        they will not be allowed to have any home any more" on
        page 9.
   A.   (Pause for reading) Acres of sludge, is it not?  If I
had
        to put all that into a book, the book would sink under its
        own weight.
   Q.   You have read that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   On the next page, page 10 at paragraph 3, Professor Evans
        has set out a translation of the table talk for the 29th
        May 1942, and again I ask you to read that.
   A.   (Pause for reading)  He is suggesting that it is two
        separate conversations.

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