Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.18
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   Then he quotes the report, does he?
   A.   Then he quotes the report:  "Since July 27th a daily train
        load of 5,000 Jews, each is travelling from Walsall
via
        Malkenia to Treblinka, in addition to which two are
        running each week, a train of 5,000 Jews will run each
        week from Eprzemysl to Belzec."
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Do you wish me to continue?
   Q.   No, I do not.  I am just wondering whether I was right
to
        agree with you that 5,000 per train was too many.
   A.   If they were in goods trucks, as that September
document
        indicates they have been planning, then they may
possibly
        have packed that many in.
   Q.   Have you still got Professor Brownings' report there?
        This is inevitable, I am afraid, in a case like this.
   A.   Page 430, is it?
   Q.   No, page 44 of Professor Browning.
   A.   I am constantly marvelling at your cross-referencing.
   Q.   It breaks down all too often.  Page 44, paragraph
5.3.11,
        I will read it.  We will look at the documents if you
        insist, but I do not believe it is necessary:
                  "The trains deporting Jews from Galicia".
What
        is the matter?
   A.   I have it, 44.  Yes.
   Q.   5.3.11, Mr Irving:

.          P-160



                  "The trains deporting the Jews from Galicia
did
        indeed go to Belzec as can be seen in the report of
        Reserve Lieutenant Westermann of the 7th company of
Police
        Regiment 24, whose men helped round up the Jews in
        Kolomyja", which is, I can tell, you southeast of
Lavof,
        in other words further East than Lemberg, "and nearby
        towns and then guarded two transports to Belzec on
        September 7th and 10th 1942.  The first contained
4,769
        Jews in 50 train cars and went without incident.  The
        second involved 8,205 Jews.  Many had been held for
days
        without food and force-marched 35-50 kilometers to the
        train in blistering heat.  They were then packed into
        train cars, in many cases 180 to 200 per car,
virtually
        without ventilation.  As Lieutenant Westermann
concluded,
        'The ever greater panic spreading among the Jews due
to
        the great heat, overloading of the train cars and
stink of
        the dead when unloading the train cars, some 2,000
Jews
        were found dead in the train made the transport almost
        unworkable.' Nevertheless, the train that left
Kolomyja at
        8.50 p.m. on September 10th finally crawled into
Belzec at
        6.45 on September 11th".
                  So these figures quoted by Ganzenmuller's
        subordinate of 5,000 Jews per train ----
   A.   They are feasible, yes, on the basis of this evidence.
   Q.   Are feasible?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-161



   Q.   If that were so, we are talking about even greater
        numbers, are we not?
   A.   In what respect greater numbers?
   Q.   Well, greater numbers than I had originally supposed.
        I mean we are originally talking about by the end of
the
        1943 or whenever it was that these camps were
disbanded,
        well over a million people I would guess.
   A.   May I just remark for the record that of course this
        Westermann document I have not seen and never had when
        I was writing my books.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but in a way that is not a
particular
        pertinent observation, because we are really at the
moment
        looking at the scale of the operation.
   A.   My Lord, you did suggest that I should make that quite
        plain.
   Q.   Fair enough and it is helpful for you to do so, but
the
        criticism is not of the way in which you have dealt
with
        these matters in your books, if you follow me?
   A.   We are just trying to get the picture.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can you turn, while we have it open, to page
46 of
        Professor Browning's report, please?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I had pointed out to you that trains apparently went,
we
        saw it again there, westwards from Galicia to Belzec,
and
        then you see at the top of page 46 of Professor
Browning's
        report:  "Surviving fragmentary train schedules also
show

.          P-162



        that Jews were deported from northern Lublin district,
        Radom district, and the Bialystok district to
Treblinka as
        well.  The deportations from Bialystok, a district
East of
        Treblinka, are of special significance for two
reasons.
        First, these deportations from Bialystok make clear
that
        Treblinka was not a transit camp for the expulsion of
Jews
        eastwards from the General Government.  Rather the
tiny
        village of Treblinka, like Belzec, was a point at
which
        transports of Jews converged from East and West.
                  "Moreover, the fate of the Bialystok Jews in
        the fall of 1942 was clearly stated in Himmler's
report to
        Hitler of December 31st 1942", that is either that or
        29th, it is report No. 51, "the Jews of Bialystok were
        among the 363,211 Jews executed."
   A.   There I would have to comment of course that that line
        I would not agree there is any connection, because the
        363,000, that report, the Himmler report, is referring
        only to events within that region and not events
within
        the General Government.
   Q.   You mean that is Jews killed at or near Bialystok and
its
        area, not Jews transported?
   A.   Transported somewhere else out of the region and dealt
        with somewhere else.
   Q.   You might be right about that.  You can take that up
with
        Professor Browning.
   A.   Yes.  It is nit-picking.

.          P-163



   Q.   No.  It may be a fair point and you can take it up
with
        him.  It matters not the least to me.  The point about
        this is, we have another example, have we not, of Jews
        being transported from the East to the West?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   To a different camp, Treblinka, the one in the North?
   A.   Where we do not know for certain what happens to them.
   Q.   No, but these do not look very much like transit
camps, do
        they?
   A.   I do not know.  Let us just leap ahead a bit and say
        suppose these enormous numbers of Jews had been
liquidated
        in some way, we come up against that familiar word
        "logistics", what happened to the remains?
   Q.   Well, I suppose what happened to the remains, upwards
of
        whatever I do not know ----
   A.   We have to think this right through, you see.
   Q.   It is partly a question of evidence and it is partly a
        question of constructive thinking.  It could be that
many
        of them were burnt, the corpses I mean.  There is some
        evidence of that, is there not?  It may be that many
of
        them were buried.  There is also some evidence of that
        too, is there not, I mean contemporary evidence?
   A.   Yes, that is as much as we can say.
   Q.   I agree.
   A.   I take that kind of answer, that is as much as we can
say,
        one stage further back in the sequence to say, this is
as

.          P-164



        much as we can say:  They went there where they then
        vanished from our general sight.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought we had reached the point where
we
        were agreed that it does not really, in a sense,
matter
        terribly much exactly how many, but huge numbers ----
   A.   Huge numbers were killed.
   Q.   --- were killed in one way or another.  In a sense,
the
        Court's problem is only a problem if you are disputing
the
        numbers.
   A.   Precisely, my Lord.  The logistical problem is one
that we
        will keep on coming up against.  It is a distasteful
        subject but one you cannot overlook.
   MR RAMPTON:  Just for completeness and for his Lordship's
note,
        in effect so his Lordship really knows where to find
it,
        if you turn over the page two pages from Ganzenmuller
----
   A.   My Lord, if I could just interrupt, it is one reason
why
        I was entitled to extrapolate, if you remember, from
        Auschwitz to the other two camps, and we have
precisely
        those logistical reasons which make it improbable that
        they were factories of death.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship will see Wolff's nauseating
reply,
        if I can call it that ----
   A.   Which he never expected one day to have read out in
open
        court, I am sure.
   Q.   No, but then he would have been a hypocrite if he had
        edited it, would he not?  On page 331 at the bottom of
the

.          P-165



        Evans' document bundle, this is not a retype by the
        Nuremberg people, I think, is it, Mr Irving?
   A.   No.
   Q.   This is a copy of some sort of original, whether a
carbon
        or not I do not know.
   A.   It is off the microfilm number T175/54, page 620.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  331 of Evans?
   MR RAMPTON:  331, my Lord, no of H1(ix).
   A.   Can I make a remark against myself?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I am sure Mr Rampton will not want
        to ----
   A.   Looking back at that rubber stamp, my Lord, on that
        document where there is no secret classification, it
has
        in its place the two letters AR.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   It also has the letters AR on the top left-hand corner
at
        the beginning of the handwritten reference number.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What does that mean?
   A.   "Aktion Reinhardt" I would suspect.  I would suspect,
it
        is a degree of probability that this was given a
separate
        file for Aktion Reinhardt.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But not Geheim?
   A.   But not Geheim.  It is a reasonable presumption,
although
        it may be held against me.
   MR RAMPTON:  Tell me this.  I think that is an English
word.
        You see the bottom of 331?

.          P-166



   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The bottom left-hand corner in a box somebody has
        written "index".  That would be people at Nuremberg?
   A.   No, it would be me.
   Q.   That is you?
   A.   All documents that passed through my possession when I
was
        writing the Hitler book went into a 20,000 card index,
and
        once it had been indexed I would rubber stamp the
index so
        that I did not index it again.
   Q.   I see.  The reference to "the chosen people" is in the
        fifth line, is it not?
   A.   "For your letter of July 28th 1942 I thank you, also
in
        the name of the Reichsfuhrer SS, most heartfelt.  With
        particular joy I have taken cognisance of your
information
        that for 14 days now already every day one train with
        5,000 members of the chosen people are going to
Treblinka,
        and that in this way we are being put in the position
that
        we can accelerate the speed of this population
movement."
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it probably is really more
selective
        than "chosen", is it not?  Is it not just saying these
are
        people who have been selected for the transport?
   A.   My Lord, that is the German for "chosen".
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I think it is a sarcastic reference
to,
        I would guess.
   A.   It is the correct German for "the chosen people".
   MR RAMPTON:  "For the chosen people".  Mr Irving actually
put

.          P-167



        it in his book in that form, did you not?
   A.   As an accurate translation, yes.
   Q.   Why did it cause him, Mr Irving, why did it cause him,
        Wolff, especial joy?
   A.   I am sure that is just a way of dictating letters.
Wolff
        in particular is an SS Officer.
   Q.   "A rabid anti-Semite is very pleased to be told that
5,000
        a day are going off to be massacred."  Surely that is
the
        natural interpretation?
   A.   57,000 are getting their comeuppance, I suppose that
is
        the way he is looking at it, as a good Nazi.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Comeuppance" meaning?
   A.   Well, just they are meeting their well-deserved fait,
        whatever it is.  They are not specific.
   Q.   Death?
   A.   I beg your pardon.
   Q.   Death?
   A.   He does not actually say it, my Lord.
   Q.   That is what he means?
   A.   Well, I am not going to pin Karl Wolff down on this on
        there.
   Q.   No, but you are an historian looking at the document,
        Mr Rampton has put a perfectly fair question to you,
is he
        right?
   A.   I cannot say from this document, my Lord, and I do not
        think anybody could just looking at this document

.          P-168



        in vacuo.  In hindsight we can say that they were
going to
        that place, they never turned up again, obviously
        something ugly happened to them.
   MR RAMPTON:  Karl Wolff, who I have to correct you I think
        about in a moment, but never mind, Karl Wolff on
receipt
        of Ganzenmuller's information is overcome with joy
that
        these 5,000 a day are going to their deaths, is he
not?
   A.   He does not say that, but that may very well be the
reason
        why.  I accept there is the degree of probability.
That
        may be the reason why.
   Q.   This is my second point.  I am told, I am not an
        historian, that Wolff was not simply a visitor or even
a
        frequent visitor to Hitler's headquarters, but was
        Himmler's liaison officer at Hitler's headquarters?
   A.   For a time he may have been, but I am not sure whether
it
        was at this time.
   Q.   That is a fair point.  I will accept that.
   A.   He fell out of favour after contracting an unsuitable
        marriage and for a long time he was out of favour.
   Q.   But if he is Himmler's liaison officer at the Fuhrer
        headquarters, whether it is in Berlin or in East
Prussia,
        wherever it might be, his formal role is to pass
        information and instructions backwards and forwards --
--
   A.   As a conduit.
   Q.   --- between Himmler and Hitler, is it not?
   A.   He would have acted as a conduit between the two.

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