Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day022.22 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 MR RAMPTON: No, but if they are emigrating from, let us say, France to a death camp in Poland, it is perfectly logical. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that happening at this time, Professor Evans? . P-198 A.Yes. Q.European Jews? A.Yes. Q.What one might call non-German European Jews? A.September 1942. MR IRVING: But it might perfectly well be somebody saying, "Well, why don't we have them all sent to French North Africa", because at that time that had not been invaded, Operation Torch had not happened. A.I find that somewhat unlikely, Mr Irving ---- Q.All that I am looking at ---- A.--- in view of the fact there is this mass extermination going on in the area, for which Globocnik was responsible at this very time. The fact it was discussed with Globocnik quite clearly means that this part of the package of things that was discussed, if have the man who is actually responsible for this involved. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was Globocnik involved in transportation as opposed to extermination? A.He was the Police Chief for the area, so he was involved in all of these things. Q.So he was both. A.Yes. MR IRVING: He was obviously involved in the resettlement of the Lublin district, as is shown by the reference in this connection. . P-199 A.Yes, bringing these people in. Q.I will just ask the question once more. Have you seen the word "auswandern" used anywhere as a euphemism where it is clearly so, used as camouflage, on any other occasion? A.I do not recall it having been, that does not mean to say it is not so used, but, as I say, they used a whole variety of euphemisms. Q.We will very rapidly turn the page, and 10th December, we now have the abshafen of the Jews from France. A.Yes. Q.We have dealt with this. I am just going to look, not at the numbers here, but do you agree the figures of 600 to 700,000 are not accurate for France as far as Jews are concerned? A.No, because I think this probably included the French colonies. Q.How would the Germans get their hands on the Jews in the French colonies? A.You just said that they were thinking about sending Jews to Madagascar. That is one of them. Q.Are you familiar with the fact that on 8th November 1942 the first major Anglo-American amphibious invasion operation had taken place and that the French North of West Africa was the target of that, and so there had been a major change in the geographical situation before this conference took place? . P-200 A.That is right. Just before this conference, a few weeks before South of France was occupied by axis troops. This is at a point when the transports of Jews from France had already begun. It began in the early Spring 1942 directly to Auschwitz and carried on through the Summer. About 13,000 Jews were arrested in Paris in July. Transports then began from the Vichy region. The background to this is the fact that they have now got control over the whole of France and they are not reliant on the Vichy government any more. So in the following February more transports in considerable number began to Auschwitz and Sobibor. Q.Very briefly, you will find on those two pages of December 10th 1942 that two words were used for how the Jews were going be moved on disposed of: Abshafen on one document in Himmler's handwriting, and in the typed memorandum he then says they are going to be abtransportiered? A.Yes. Q.Would you like to tell the court what your conclusions are from the use of those two words? A.This first document is just Himmler's own private note, is that right? Q.Yes. A.The second one is a document for circulation. Q.Is the typed version which then was generated after that? A.Yes. So he is, in other words, using a euphemism in the document that has to be circulated, and being more . P-201 explicit in his own notes. Q.How would you translate "abshafen? A. " Abolish. Q.To dismiss, to abolish and to remove, is that right? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you accepted earlier on that did mean liquidate, Mr Irving. MR IRVING: No, my Lord, not necessarily. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's translation is no more helpful, except of course than perhaps "abolish". He accepted, it is somewhere in one of his books, the translation "dispose of". MR IRVING: Yes. MR RAMPTON: I do not know about in German, but in English it is difficult to apply that to people, unless it has an entirely sinister sense. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that may be what I had in mind. MR IRVING: If we then go to the next document, the third document in this series which is dated just December 1942, you agree that here Himmler is contacting Muller and saying there is going to be a special camp set up to house valuable Jews from France and other nationalities, is that right? A.Yes, this is a scheme, is an order by Himmler that Hungarian, Romanian and French Jews stay together, all those who have influential relations in America should be put in a special camp, and he sees a number of about . P-202 10,000 for this special camp of the wealthy Jews from these three countries who have influential relations in America. They have got to work there, but he adds the unusual condition that they have to work under conditions which keep them alive and healthy. Q.Yes. A.Good for him. So it is a rather different matter. Yes, that is what it says. Q.Because I am sure when we come to be questioned about the Kinna document we are going to find out that the Jews were regarded as being a less preservable species in camps, were they not? There was less importance attached to keeping them alive? A.Yes, this is a very special category of a rather small minority. One would guess maybe that this document came before the outbreak of war with America. It is difficult it say, but this is the hostage idea again I think. Q.Yes, this document is December 1942, is it not? A.Yes. There is no day though on it. Q.Yes. A.There is no day. It is just the month, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, bottom left. MR IRVING: My Lord, the only other document I am going to look at in the chain is October 1943. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Looking at the chain for what purpose, Mr Irving, can you remind me? It is so long since we started . P-203 it I cannot remember. MR IRVING: The chain started off as the chain of documents showing Hitler acting in a benevolent manner, holding out his hand to protect categories of Jews. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought that was probably the answer. MR IRVING: But occasionally other documents I have put them into it out of straightforward fairness to Mr Rampton, because I thought that otherwise he will say: Well, what about this and what about that? MR RAMPTON: And he is still going to say that. A.Let me comment there, the second document about the special camp for wealthy Jews from three countries with relations in America, it does not actually involve Hitler at all. This is an idea of Himmler's. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, it rather suggests that the other Jews are not going to have such a happy fate. A.I am afraid it does, my Lord, yes, particularly where he says they have to be kept in work camps under conditions that keep them alive and healthy, which suggests that is rather unusual. MR IRVING: Was this a time when there were major epidemics raging in the camps? In other words, this is not just simply saying that you have to take great care that no epidemic breaks out in this camp? A.It is not just that. They are saying they are not to be worked to death and special care is to be taken that they . P-204 do not die of epidemics, unlike the rest of them is the implication. This is a very special category of people we are talking about here, with rich relations, influential relations in America. MR IRVING: My Lord, all Mr Rampton has indicated he is not going to discuss the Roman Jews, because it is part of my chain I just want to spend the remaining five minutes looking at the two documents on that, if I may. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because this is the case where you say Hitler intervened to save them? MR IRVING: As you will see, my Lord, yes, again under very similar circumstances. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. A.My Lord, if we are going to discuss this we will have to discuss it at length, I fear. I understood we were going on to half past 4 today? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause for a moment, Mr Irving. MR IRVING: I am shaking my head. MR JUSTICE GRAY:I follow that. What have you managed to do about Monday? A.I am able to come. I have made arrangements to come on Monday. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. I see why you say that, because the Roman Jews are quite complicated. MR IRVING: Shall we leave it until Monday then? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am inclined to have a go. . P-205 MR IRVING: Have a stab at it now and see if we can deal with it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you rather put them to the back of your mind because they seem to have not really featured in the case? A.I thought we were not going to discuss these. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The position is Mr Rampton has not relied on it, but that does not stop Mr Irving reintroducing that issue. If you say you need to bone up on it? A.No, I am happy to do it now. MR IRVING: I certainly rely on them. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving does. He may be making a mistake there, because he does not know the reason why I decided not to. That is his privilege to put his foot in his mouth, if that is what is going to happen. I do not know. I do worry that it may take more than a quarter of an hour though, because it is quite complicated. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am quite keen to use up all the available time, because I am anxious to get Professor Evans out of the box on Monday. MR IRVING: I can promise definitely that I will do everything I can to have him out of the box. We now have reached October 1943 which is of course, as far as I am concerned, the watershed and Hitler's knowledge. MR JUSTICE GRAY: True, but remember Mr Rampton may have some re-examination. . P-206 MR IRVING: I will leave him more than enough time for that I am sure. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we be open about it, because I am quite happy to adjourn now if we are sure we will get Professor Evans out of the box. MR RAMPTON: I can speak only about my re-examination at the moment which consists of but two topics. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it may be an hour, an hour and a half? MR RAMPTON: Nothing like that. It may be half an hour, maybe three-quarters of an hour. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you reasonably confident? MR IRVING: Totally confident and, if not, then it is my own fault. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would not want to leave it on that basis. Then I think let us adjourn now. MR IRVING: I think we have broken through the barbed wired. We are right through the mine field now and we are out in the open desert and our guns are blazing. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I had forgotten about the Roman Jews as well. So we are not sitting tomorrow, but Monday at 10.30 (The witness stood down) (The Court adjourned until Monday, 21 February 2000). . P-207
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