Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day025.03 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. --- of men and women? A. --- Auschwitz had two functions. It was a slave labour camp and it was an extermination camp, and this clearly relates to the -- clearly relates to the slave labour camp. Q. What are they dying of? A. Well, as I am trying to say, in the slave labour camp they had a programme of extermination through work, and the life expectancy of a prisoner in the death, in the slave labour camp was a couple of weeks or probably a couple of months, and they died -- you can see actually see it from the document itself because the documents state, you know, what has to be improved. The food has to be improved because the conditions, the food conditions, are completely unsufficient. It says in the document, for instance, that prisoners are allowed to wear a coat outside during the winter. So this gives, I think, a very clear answer that prisoners in the camp would die because they do not have the efficient, they do not have . P-34 sufficient clothing, and there are, of course, epidemics in the camp and, of course, there is a regular process of selection. The people unfit for work, the sick and the weak prisoners would be selected and sent to the gas chambers. I think, if you read the document with a reference to actually the conditions in the camp, the conditions in, let us say, August 1943, you have a very good idea of what the conditions were. August '43, 1442 people died, for instance, in the camp. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you explain what "durch mittel Belegstaff" is? A. This is the average number of prisoners. MR IRVING: Average camp strength. A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Average prison population? A. Yes. MR IRVING: So the five columns, my Lord, average prison population of each of those camps. The next column is the numbers of deaths which, in the case of Auschwitz and one or two of the other camps is being divided up as to men and women, separate figures. The next column is the percentage ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the rest is clear. A. Yes. It is quite clear because the numbers here were separated because Auschwitz, the slave labour camps, was . P-35 divided into a women's camp and into a men's camp, so this gives you an indication that this relates clearly to the slave labour camp and nothing to do with the extermination installations. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which camp would be meant by "Lublin"? A. This is the -- this is Maidonek, complex of camps really. MR IRVING: If you go now to the next page after that statistical table, you have three pages showing a graph showing how over the three or four years, 1940 to 1943, the mortality has soared from various causes. There are quite visible peak. There is a big peak around about March 1943 which is on the second page. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you explain for our benefit what this covers? Is it all concentration camps? MR IRVING: It is all the camps. I draw the witness's attention first to the third of three pages. It has a rubber stamp. The senior doctor on Pohl's staff. In other words, he is the head doctor or, I suppose, the surgeon general of the concentration camp system. It has Himmler's initials on this document on the third page. A. Where is that? Which page? Q. Do you have the graphs? A. Yes. Q. It will be the last page but one before the big yellow sheet. Do you see, it has a rubber stamp saying that, effectively, it is the surgeon general of the . P-36 concentration camp system? A. Yes. Q. On the right it has Heinrich Himmler's own initials, so it has been submitted to Himmler? A. Yes, yes. Q. And it is a graph showing, the bottom two curves are the percentage figures, the middle curve is a percentage figure, the bottom curve appears to be numbers of death per month and the upper curve appears to be a cumulative figure. But it is difficult to interpret, and I am not a statistician, all I am going to say is there are quite clear peaks. They have gone through crises. Would you accept that that is a fair statement? A. There were differences in the monthly death rate, yes, I can see that. Q. And the final page is the yellow page right at the end which is a contrast of the mortality rates in the concentration camps in the second half year of 1942 compared with the second half year of 1943. Again you can see in August and September 1942 and in August and September 1943 they have gone through a serious crisis of some kind. There have been 11,000 deaths, 12,000 deaths, in the concentration camp system in corresponding August and September of both years. So I am only going to ask one or two general questions now from what you have seen. In other words, there was a very high mortality rate in . P-37 these concentration camps? A. Yes, indeed. Q. How did they dispose of the bodies? A. Well, I am actually not prepared to -- I mean, I am not prepared here to comment on the concentration camps, but, as far as I know, they burnt the bodies in crematoria. Q. In crematoria, yes. If these deaths had been caused through epidemics, would that be an appropriate way of disposing of the bodies? A. Yes, I think so. Q. Have you any indication as to what the major cause of deaths in Auschwitz was in 1942 or 1943? A. I do not think I should guess at what I think. As far as I recall it, it was typhus, but I am not sure. I am not absolutely... Q. Have you even seen any references to this epidemic in the police decodes at the Public Record Office or in the United States? A. No. Q. Have you seen any references to the camp at Auschwitz being quarantined of what is called a lager spare? A. I cannot recall that. Q. My Lord, that is the only questions I have to put on the death statistics. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that you are really putting what I suspect may be your case. Are you suggesting (and . P-38 I am not sure this is the right witness anyway) that the crematoria were solely being used in order to burn the corpses of those who are shown on this graph to have died from typhus? MR IRVING: Let me put two or three more questions in that direction then, my Lord, to nail it down. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, because if that is your case, you must put it fair and square and it may be Dr Longerich will say, "Well, I am not the right person to ask". MR IRVING: But he is not the right expert, yes. Dr Longerich, from your knowledge of the concentration camp system or its workings, who would have the job of disposing of the bodies in the crematoria? Would that be the sonderkommandos? A. I think so, yes. Q. And would they remove all the gold and valuables from these bodies first? A. Yes. Q. Would it be a very grisly and memorable task? A. I would suppose so, yes. Q. I do not think really, my Lord, I can ask any further questions on that. A. I am not sure, I am not really sure, I am also -- actually I am not prepared to go into details about the history of Auschwitz, and if this is a kind of, I do not know, I am not too sure about the sonderkommando here, and I should . P-39 probably -- we had expert in Auschwitz and I should probably simply say I am not sure here. MR RAMPTON: Can I make a suggestion? If these documents be thought important, and if it be Mr Irving's case (which, by implication, I suppose it must be, forget all the other camps mentioned in these documents as they are nothing to do with this case) that the reference to Auschwitz is a reference to Auschwitz Birkenhau, then I think maybe the right thing to do, I do not know what your Lordship thinks, this gentleman is not an expert on Auschwitz, is to send these documents to Professor van Pelt and get him to put something in writing as a supplement to his report by of commentary on these documents. MR IRVING: Together with the appropriate part of the cross-examination. MR RAMPTON: Yes, certainly. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The first thing, though, is to get clear and, I mean, it is what I was trying to do, and I think Mr Rampton is also wishing for clarification, quite what you are making of these graphs. They are new and I have no doubt there are good explanations why they were not put to Professor van Pelt. But are you suggesting, just take Auschwitz because we have not gone into detail in the other camps, that the deaths that one infers were taking place at Auschwitz from these graphs were the reason why the crematoria were being employed in the way that various . P-40 witnesses have described they were being employed? MR IRVING: Let me put one more question then to the witness. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not think the witness is really going to be very happy to answer. I am really asking you to tell me and tell the Defendants. MR IRVING: In that case, if you look at the statistical table, my Lord, which is the third page, it would be page 18, I suppose. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, the yellow one? MR IRVING: No, the table with columns. You see that in one month, August, 1943, there were 2400 deaths in Auschwitz from whatever cause, and for the argument I would accept it is Auschwitz and not Birkenhau, then that is 2400 bodies that have to be disposed of in that 31 days period. It is 200 tonnes of bodies which is a memorable task for the sonderkommandos who had the wretched task of cremating them. The suggestion I am making is that it is not beyond the bounds of probability that this is what they are recalling when they see -- one question which I think van Pelt would have to answer, if this question was to put to him, is did the Auschwitz camp, as opposed to Birkenhau, have the cremation capacity for disposing of bodies on that scale at this time or would the bodies have been sent to Birkenhau to be disposed of? MR RAMPTON: This is a terrible confusion in Mr Irving's mind, that the greater part of the workers, as opposed to what . P-41 I might call the murderees, who were put into the labour section after selection were housed at Birkenhau. MR IRVING: So this is Birkenhau then we are talking about? MR RAMPTON: No, no. When one talks about the extermination facility at Auschwitz, one is talking mainly but not exclusively of the two bunkers and the four crematoria where the people went immediately after they got off the train. They never went into the work camp. The work camp part housed the majority of the slave labour at Auschwitz Birkenhau. That has been clearly described by Professor van Pelt. We have seen the picture of the wire with the gate through it into the women's camp, and that is where the majority of those Auschwitz frauen would have been housed. That evidence is already in court. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have to be clear, you see, you did not really, I think, actually quite explain, Mr Irving, what it was that you were saying was not beyond the bounds of possibility. I think we must really be absolutely clear about this. Are you saying that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that all the evidence that we have heard about bodies being burnt in the ---- MR IRVING: The eyewitness evidence. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- crematoria, whether at Birkenhau or at Auschwitz, was the burning of bodies of those who had died through disease? . P-42 MR IRVING: Of whom there are clearly a very large number. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but what is the answer to the question? MR IRVING: The answer is yes. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, again I think this is unsatisfactory for this witness, I really do, because ---- MR IRVING: Except, of course, that I do accept that there were gassings on a small scale in Auschwitz as well. MR RAMPTON: This is most unsatisfactory because the evidence of Professor van Pelt is, whether it be right or wrong, which this witness may or may not know but he is not the right person to deal with it, the incineration capacity in crematoria 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 at Auschwitz Birkenhau was by June 1943 something in the region 4,700 bodies a day, and this is a monthly figure. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand the point you are making, and that will be a point you will, no doubt, make later on, but I think we have got clear now from Mr Irving, because I am anxious that he states clearly what his case is and then it can be addressed by Professor van Pelt, but I think it is clear now that the suggestion is that, apart from a small number of gassings, which is something that has already been accepted by Mr Irving, he says that the crematoria were being used to -- everywhere were being used solely for the purpose of burning the bodies of those who died through disease or from overwork, I suppose. MR RAMPTON: Maybe, but on what appears to be, if we are right, . P-43 a relatively insignificant scale. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is obviously the point to be made, but I have not misrepresented your case, have I, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: No, that is correct, although I am not sure this was the way to have elicited it. Let me ask two more related questions then. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR IRVING: Dr Longerich, you said that the prisoners who arrived at these camps they were selected and some were sent to work and others were exterminated without being registered, this is the common consensus, is it not, among historians? A. Yes. Q. Why would the Germans have gone to such enormous trouble to list down to the last digit the numbers of those who were dying in the camps if just 100 yards down the road in the same camps they were killing them like flies without any kind of registry at all? A. Well, I think it is difficult to answer this question, you know, actually to reconstruct the rationality of this system. I think what -- they had a kind of proper concentration camp system. They wanted to know who was in the camp. They wanted to control whether people actually were able to flee from the camp, for instance, and they did not keep statistics about the people they were going . P-44 to kill, as far as I am aware of. Q. This generates two further questions, Dr Longerich. Have you heard of Dr Conrad Morgan, the chief Judge of the SS system? A. Yes, I have heard of him, yes. Q. And he was a lawyer in Frankfurt after the war, was he not? He was not prosecuted for war crimes, just so we can establish his credentials. A. Yes. Q. He was an investigating judge who carried out investigations for the SS about atrocities in concentration camps, is that right? A. Yes. Q. And were any concentration camp kommandants hanged by the SS as a result of having committed what I would call wild atrocities? A. Yes, as far as I remember, Koch was, for instance, among them. Q. Buchenwald? The kommandant of Buchenwald? A. Yes. Q. The husband of the notorious Elz Koch? A. Yes. Q. He was hanged in front of the prisoners of his own camp for having committed atrocities? A. I do not recall the circumstance, but I know that he was punished. . P-45 Q. And the kommandant of the infamous camp at Pleskau which figured in the film Schindler's List, was he also penalised, punished, by the SS for committing atrocities? A. I do not recall the details. Q. Did Conrad Morgan report back to Berlin that large numbers of illegal killings had been carried out by these Kommandants? A. Yes, I remember that. Q. Is this not an extraordinary business, in the light of the whole story of the Holocaust now, that the SS was conducting its own internal enquiries within its own jurisdiction? A. Well, Himmler himself refers to this incident in his speech in Posnan. He said actually, "We are proud that we carried out this operation in a proper way, except some exceptions", and he is clearly referring to these people. So they had an idea that one had to kill people properly, and what, you know, they did not hang Koch because he killed prisoners in the camp. They were extreme, the conditions in the camp were extremely, for instance, the amount of looting and the amount of actually -- what is the expression in German? [German]
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