Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.09 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is he? A. Is this Staglich again? MR RAMPTON: It is the same old faces. A. This is one person there ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you go back a bit? A. --- who will speak later, Peter Verala to the right, just to the right. This is Pedro Verala. He stood all the time in the back of the stage. This is Paul Knutsen a Danish activist of the same scene, both revisionists and right wing extremist activities involved. This is now Pedro Verala speaking and having a tape of the Haute Lyons D'Egrelle(?). That was the Lyons D'Egrelle. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that Althans? MR RAMPTON: Althans in the ---- A. This is Althans again, right. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I thought so. A. This is now Ditlieb Felderer, a Swedish activist of the international. MR RAMPTON: Is it a man or a woman -- oh, it is a man. A. There is Christian Worch, organizer of the security aspect of this conference, with his troopers, if I may say so. . P-75 This is again Raymund Bachman of Austria. To the left you see Christian Worch. They sing again the first verse of the National Anthem that is forbidden. This is a reference to the berkhof(?) of Hitler, so far as I see it. This is it. MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship will have noticed that apart from my actual appearance, there is no appearance of myself in that video, if you see what I am saying? MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will have an opportunity to say whether you were or were not there for the whole of it. MR IRVING: While the images were fresh in your Lordship's memory, I wished to... MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, all right, well, that is fair enough. MR RAMPTON: How long is this one? A. That is a rally in Halle. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this the last one, Halle? MR RAMPTON: The last one. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we try to deal with it? MR RAMPTON: Yes. We will deal with it, if your Lordship will permit, by the same means. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We have actually got a transcript of Halle. MR RAMPTON: Have we? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tab 11? A. This is Gottfried Kussel. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this Halle already? . P-76 A. Yes. Q. Just pause a second. I do not know whether it is -- at least I assume it is the same tab 11 in D2(iii)? MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship is miles ahead of me, D2(iii). MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it November 9th 1991, Professor Funke? A. That is 9th November of '91. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it is the same one. MR RAMPTON: That is absolutely right, my Lord. MR IRVING: Can we establish whether this is from Dispatches or the raw uncut footage, please? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is a proper enquiry. MR RAMPTON: Of course it is. I do not know the answer. That is all. It is taken from This Week, not Dispatches, and it is such footage as we have. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we are getting the whole lot, in other words? MR RAMPTON: Yes, but again I suggest that we do not need to -- we identify Kussel. MR IRVING: My Lord, if I can just ask you to pause for a moment? There are three video tapes. There is the "This Week" programme as broadcast and there are two video tapes which fell into our hands by accident, containing the raw uncut footage of this programme. The "This Week" programme is heavily edited and, as a matter of interest, I would just like to know what the court is going to be shown now, whether it is the raw, uncut footage. . P-77 MR JUSTICE GRAY: "This Week", I think, is what is being shown and the whole of "This Week", as I understand it. MR IRVING: I understood Miss Rogers to say it was such footage as they had. MR RAMPTON: It is not edited. You can see that from the timing ---- MR IRVING: So this is the raw, uncut footage? MR RAMPTON: --- thing. That is why it is rather long and, I am afraid, it is very "samey", but the sameness is rather striking so perhaps we should continue in fast forward for a bit. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Exactly the same basis as before. Yes? A. As I said, this is Gottfried Kussel marching at the top so representing that he is the successor of ---- MR RAMPTON: Excuse me. When you get to Kussel being interviewed, could you stop it, please, because I want to hear ---- A. By the way, this is the main transparent -- banner, thank you, showing that, you know, Reiner Sonntag, Rudolf Hess and a third person. These are the matters of the Reich. This matter of the Reich, you see it down. THE INTERPRETER: Matters of ---- A. Matters of the Reich, Rudolf Hess in the middle, Reiner Sonntag to the left and Michael Kuhnen to the right. I have to say that Reiner Sonntag was a neo-Nazi activist in Dresden of the same camp, of the neo-Nazi camp, and was . P-78 killed by non-political reasons, as far as the record is there. Michael Kuhnen died by disease in April '91. MR RAMPTON: Right, thank you. A. This is Deutsche TV. You see now all the political little tiny important for them and for the scene groups, and here this is the political arm of the Kuhnen crew or the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. So a group that is described by all sources, including the official ones in Germany as neo-National Socialists. Q. What significance are the colours black, white and red, if any? A. This is again schwarz, weiss, rot, black, white ---- THE INTERPRETER: Black, white and red? A. --- and red, reference to the Nationalistic cause to as long as they are not allowed to use swastikas, swastika flags. Q. Carry on. (The video continued) A. It is a bit quick. I cannot identify the persons by this speed. Here again you ---- Q. Continue with the ---- A. This is the Reichskriegsflagge again. The police sheltering the demonstration. Ah, maybe you go a bit back, if I may ask you? OK, now with tone, with sound. Q. Stop there, what? A. This, OK. . P-79 Q. What are they shouting first of all? THE INTERPRETER: "We'll get you all"? A. Yes. MR RAMPTON: "Alle wir kriegen Euch"? THE INTERPRETER: "We'll get you all". A. "Wir kriegen Euch alle". "We get you all". Q. Who is "all", who is "you"? A. This is a slogan that is used by this very aggressive demonstrations and attack attempts on asylum seekers home in the early 1990s, so I did book on the Rostock event where this kind of attack of assylum seeker home where this again was shouted. So, it is a very aggressive, "We get you all". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but it is xenophobia, it is not specifically anti-Semitic? A. No, but it can turn because often they are both and they were asked to be both, anti-Semitic destroying cemeteries of Jews, and be against foreigners. This is Deutsche Hessen, German Hesser, and there to the right you have one of the other main active neo-Nazis leaders thinks Heinz Reisz, R-E-I-S-Z. He is one of the active persons in Hesser. This is a run down region of ---- Q. Can you pause there a moment? Professor, have you tried to estimate or do you know how many people were at this rally? A. It was estimated by various sources around 5 to 600. . P-80 Q. The pictures we have seen so far are mostly, not entirely, are of what one might call skinheads wearing what the English call "bovver" boots. To what extent were they characteristic of the audience? A. They are very characteristic. You have here a clear cut sign or picture, better to say, of several, you know, groupings coming together. The basis of them are these often without hair, you know ---- Q. Skinheads? A. --- short hair, dressed and boots of this kind where you can do this kind of marching things, using this Reichskriegsflagge as described, wearing special jackets. They are the core of the skinhead, the violent skinhead, scene. This is the one level. The other level is that all the little tiny groups of the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, of the Kuhnen crew, after his death, the Kuhnen crew, of course, with Worch and others are there joining, and also those who are a bit of distance, you can see it a bit later, coming to join because there is a joint effort to go to the next step of this strategy. The third dimension, the third level, so to speak, is that also the NPD, the normal right-wing extremists, if I may say so, not so violent, not so neoNazi orientated, come to a degree also and are invited by this already mentioned to Thomas Dienel, the chief of the NPD of Tourignia, Tourignia at that point, at that . P-81 time, and the second chief or one of the second chiefs of the Federal level of the NPD. So you have an attempt to join on the very radical level the whole scenery to make the next strategical step. You have to recall, if I may say this as a last sentence, that in the period between '89 and this very day since the fall of the Wall, two years were gone, and in this they could establish this kind of movement of male youngsters to be as furious against foreigners as anti-Semitic and for Aryan race based state. Last sentence again, the amount of violence, you know, were more intense in '91 than in '90, and again in '92. So they are at a juncture of spreading their influence in the violent youngsters' scene, especially in East Germany. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do we see Mr Irving on the way in ---- A. We will see. Q. --- as it were, to the meeting? We will see him, will we? MR RAMPTON: I do not know if we see him on the march. A. No, no. Q. We certainly see him on the scaffold in due course? MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was really wondering. Yes, I see. A. This is -- you can go on. This is another Krubrich is the name, another activist. Can you go a bit back, if I may . P-82 ask you? You see there the Leipzig(?) grouping come and join to, tried to join. (The video continued) A. With sound, please? Q. Can you stop there, please? What are they shouting? A. I cannot hear it. THE INTERPRETER: A moment ago they shouted "Aus lande aus" and the last bit was unintelligible, so "Foreigners out" they shouted before. MR IRVING: Would you comment or can you see red flags there in the background? A. Yes. These are not flags of, if I may interpret it, if you allow? MR RAMPTON: Yes. A. These are not red flags of leftists, as you may think. These are flags of the national bloc. This is very much to the hardcore right-wing extremists of the neo-Nazi scene. Again, a kind of revolutionary, representing a kind of national socialist revolutionary strategy of strasse faction way back to the early '30s, and they are of the rural area, this group. "Rotfront verrecke" was shouted. "Rotfront verrecke". THE INTERPRETER: "Red front, go and die". MR RAMPTON: Sorry, I did not hear that, what? A. This to the right in the middle is Thomas Dienel, the already mentioned Thomas Dienel. In the middle you have . P-83 Christian Worch. So the both organizers, as I alluded to before, and to the left, this is so far as I know, an activist of the region of Halle. (The video continued) A. This is, excuse me, this flag is the flag of Christian Worch's group of Hamburg, the nationalist NL. Q. Which flag is that at the back? A. This black, white. Q. Yes, thank you. (The video continued) A. This is Worch has spoken. MR IRVING: My Lord, can I pause a moment? My Lord, I do not think you were looking, but there was a cut between the introductory passage where your Lordship starting marking and then the camera moved its position. I think it would have taken him probably five, 10 or 15 seconds to move to a new position during which you missed, obviously, 15 seconds of intervening text. MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long did you speak for? MR IRVING: I was a guest appearance of five minutes, I think, altogether. I arrived. I spoke for five minutes and I immediately left. MR RAMPTON: The diary says for the appropriate date that he made a "rabble rousing 10 or 15 minutes". MR IRVING: 10 or 15 minutes, and if you could just run it back just a few seconds, then you will see where the actual . P-84 break occurs. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are right. I was reading but I was following it. MR IRVING: There. (The video continued)
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