Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.20 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. Thank you. There is one other document and it is my last topic in re-examination, Professor Funke, that I want you to look at. You remember that there was quite a lot of cross-examination about the meeting in what I call Hagenau because it is a French town but what Mr Irving calls Hagenau, I would like to show you, if I may, a part transcript and part translation, I say "part transcript and part translation" because that is all there is we can . P-185 intelligently transcribe. The date of this I think is sometime in November 1989 or something like that, 12th November 1989, that is right. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is it going to go? MR RAMPTON: It had better go in tab 15 of the second volume, my Lord, 18A. MR IRVING: My Lord, these heavily redacted excerpts of dubious provenance. MR RAMPTON: They not dubious. They were done by the lady who is the interpreter over there. There is nothing the least bit dubious about it. MR IRVING: It is the redaction that I am worried about and the editing of the cuts. MR RAMPTON: We can take that up later. MR IRVING: I think this is the time it should be taken up. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that is right. MR IRVING: We do not know what use Mr Rampton is going to make of them. MR RAMPTON: If I may ask the Interpreter, this will clear this up. Is there anything on the tape which is not in this paper? THE INTERPRETER: This is a full transcript and translation of anything that was on the tape and that was audible and identifiable. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. At the end we have the whole of the tape in German, is that right? . P-186 THE INTERPRETER: The parts in italics are transcription and the non-italic text is the translation of those passages. MR IRVING: My Lord, this is the transcript of the thrice redacted tape about which your Lordship was already raised eyebrows. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think what I am going to do is let Mr Rampton carry on, because I suspect it would be desirable that Professor Funke's evidence is concludeed this evening. MR RAMPTON: Exactly. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you think you have been taken out of context, you can revert to this without the need for a witness. All right. MR IRVING: With your Lordship's leave I shall remain standing in case I wish to object. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think you need to take that course. MR RAMPTON: I will carry on. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Carry on, on that footing that Mr Irving can come back. MR RAMPTON: If there is anything he thinks is fishy about this or there is more he wants by all means. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not fish. It is just we have not got the whole of it. MR RAMPTON: I know. MR IRVING: My Lord, because you rightly objected to the introduction of this heavily edited tape yesterday in that . P-187 form, and we agreed to use it on the basis of a rogues gallery, and now through the back door they are trying to slide this transcript under the door to us ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am actually giving you give a bit of an indulgence, because I am saying you can come back to this if you need to, not this evening, I mean whenever it is convenient to you, with the rest that is missing that has been redacted. MR RAMPTON: Anything he likes. If I had the whole recording of that meeting, nobody would be more delighted than I, but I have not. There is no doubt that these people are who they are, and there is no doubt that this, amongst other things, is what they say either, so far as I know. MR IRVING: The implication is given of course that I am present while all these things are being said and putting up with it. MR RAMPTON: Most of what is said here is said by Mr Irving and it is upon what Mr Irving says ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Lets press on. Mr Irving ---- MR RAMPTON: --- that I chiefly rely. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- if you would just bear with Mr Rampton. He is going to go through it. You can come back to this later if you think it is appropriate. Yes, Mr Rampton. MR RAMPTON: Then there is something about Zundel on the top part of the page: "Surprised to encounter my very special friend Ernest Zundel", I do know who that was, something . P-188 in French. Translator: "If I had known I was going to find Zundel here I would have brought him a present". Cut. Then we get speaker and I can tell your Lordship this is Zundel. Then the German is transcribed and it is then translated as follows. Please, Professor, follow the translation by looking at the German, if you will. "We decent Germans, wallowing in this dirt", yes? A. Yes. Q. "Pigsty"? A. Yes, right. Q. Sow stall. "Und fullen" is wallowing, is it? A. Right. Q. "This base lie against our people", yes? A. Folk, people, yes. Q. "Which this Jewish rabble", Judenpack "has been spreading, I have had it up to here"? A. Right. Q. Is that a good translation, in your view? A. Yes, definitely. Q. Thank you. Then we get Mr Irving speaking in German, and translated on the next page. MR IRVING: We have had all this put to us in the video yesterday, my Lord. Why is he having a second bite of the cherry? MR RAMPTON: Because I am going to ask ---- . P-189 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have not got the question yet. MR RAMPTON: We had not had the transcript yesterday. We had the tape and now I want to look at the words. Then I will ask a question. "And it was once again a one-man gas chamber, a one-man gas chamber carried around through the Polish countryside by two soldiers looking for the odd Jew, literally for individual Jews. This one-man gas chamber looked somewhat like sadan chair, I believe, but it was camouflaged as a telephone box, and one asks oneself: How did they get the poor soul of a victim to enter this one-man gas chamber voluntarily? Answer: There was probably a telephone bell inside it and it rang and the soldiers told him: "I think that's for you". Cut to laughing audience. MR IRVING: My Lord, cut to laughing audience implies that the audience was laughing at that, and it was just a piece of laughing audience sliced in there. So I object to the phrase "cut to". MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, we know that at this meeting, because we saw them on the screen were Mr Faurisson, nice Mr Zundel, Christian Worch, Judge Staglich, Mr Irving of course, and we were not sure but we thought maybe Arthur Butz and Karl Philipp, do you remember? A. Yes. Q. If remarks of that kind, one might call it a joke in the very worst possible taste, I do not know, if a joke of . P-190 that kind were made in that company and others of like mind, would you expect laughter from people like that or not? A. Yes, a special laughter, identifying ---- MR IRVING: Why did Mr Rampton describe this as a joke? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, it is not helpful really for you to keep interrupting. You might even give me the wrong impression by your continued interruptions. Those words were spoken by you. MR IRVING: As a quotation from a document, yes, and for Mr Rampton to describe it as being a joke by me is offensive. MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say there was probably a telephone bell inside and it rang and the soldiers told him, "I think that's for you", what was ---- MR RAMPTON: What is the document? May we have it, my Lord? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry? MR RAMPTON: I was wondering whether this document should be disclosed. I have never seen it, a quotation from a document. It may be the draft of Mr Irving's speech. I do not know. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have this now. Do not let us chase that. I am conscious of slight constraints of time. MR IRVING: I will not interrupt again but I find it repugnant that he should have two bites of the cherry like this. MR RAMPTON: It may be, my Lord, that others in this room, . P-191 including your Lordship, most particularly your Lordship, find if repugnant that Mr Irving should have said anything of this kind at all ever in his whole life. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That as maybe. I am not, Mr Irving, giving Mr Rampton two bites of the cherry. If you remember what happened yesterday, I decided that it was wrong to have the German translated by Professor Funke as we went along, and I therefore said that the video should be relied only for who they showed you in company with. I invited, this is my recollection, Mr Rampton if he wanted to rely on what you had said to prepare a translation and then we could do it properly. I think that is exactly what Mr Rampton is doing. MR IRVING: These are heavily edited excerpts which are produced for a rogues' gallery purpose which are now being used for their excerpt value which is unfair to me. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have given you permission, Mr Irving, later on to tell me in what way the context can affect what you said about one man gas chambers being taken around the Polish countryside by two soldiers. MR IRVING: Your Lordship is familiar with the ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are able to produce anything that affects the meaning, then please do so, but not now. MR IRVING: Your Lordship is familiar with the context, I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Rampton, would you like to ---- . P-192 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving has the advantage of me, I have to say. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- press on? MR RAMPTON: I will. Then we cut to Irving again and then we have some more German. Lots of question marks because the poor old translator, I dare say, could not pick up what the Hitler pick up what the words were. Anyhow, let us read the fragment that we have got, may we? "Now, to solve the enigma of the Auschwitz gas chambers, last October the Vatigan established that, according to carbon dating, the something or other probably without doubt", literally in German without objection, "dates from the years between 12.60 and 13.90, but some scientists argue that the wholly energy [blank] a body [blank] during resurrection the [blank] would have lifted up [blank]". Do you follow that? If you would like to look at the German, do you follow the drift of that thought, Professor Funke? A. It seems, but help me, that it is referring to. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The Turin Shroud I should think, is it, or not? A. To the shrine, right. MR RAMPTON: That is right, but transferring if I could --- - MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that it is really a matter of evidence, this, I think it is a matter of ----
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