Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   Q.   We will come to it in a moment.  They did stop for a
        time.  They stopped doing what Himmler did not like that
        Jeckeln had done which was mass, if you like, semi public
        shootings of people as they go off the trains?
   A.   The footnote which I printed at the end of bundle says
        "the killing of German Jews stopped for several months
        after this exchange".
   Q.   Yes, that is common ground between you and me, the
killing
        of German Jews by this method.  Maybe it stopped --
   A.   Mr Rampton, you are putting words in which do not
exist --
   Q.   -- we are coming to your use, I add, your use of the
Bruns
        evidence in a moment, but before we do that, I want
you to

.          P-55



        look at these two messages, these two intercepts.
There
        is no evidence in that of any intervention or
        participation by Hitler, is there?
   A.   -- no.
   Q.   It is all between Himmler and Jeckeln?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   If you look at the log for the 1st December 1941, I
have
        given you the composite version, having lost --
   A.   Composite version, yes.  This is a composite because
it is
        made up from three or four different sources by the
        editors.
   Q.   -- by "composite" I meant composed from different
pages in
        the book.
   A.   Yes, December 1st.
   Q.   December 1st.  We see when he is making a telephone
call
        he puts "T" is that the editors or is that Himmler?
   A.   That is the editors who put that.
   Q.   That is the editors.  At quarter past one on the 1st
there
        is an entry, it must be a telephone call because
Heydrich
        is in Prag?
   A.   It is in my bundle two.
   Q.   The German for Prague is P-R-A-G I take it; is that
right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   At quarter past 1 he rings SS Obergruppenfuhrer
Heydrich
        in Prag?
   A.   If I may interrupt, we do not know he rang Heydrich,
all

.          P-56



        we can say is there was a conversation.
   Q.   Heydrich might have rung him, of course?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The first word is scribedamen; is that secretaries?
   A.   That is correct.
   Q.   They have a talk about secretaries, it seems, then
they
        talk about the executions in Riga?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is there any inconsistency in that entry and the
        suggestion that what they actually talked about was
the
        fact that Jeckeln had not followed the guidelines
because
        he was doing it too publicly?
   A.   That is perfectly consistent.  I might add this is the
        document 24 in -- I am sorry, document No. 14 in my
        bundle, the original.
   Q.   Yes.  You see there is no evidence in that that that
phone
        call to Heydrich, or from Heydrich, is in any way
involved
        or prompted by Hitler, is there?
   A.   No, none at all, but you are setting a trap for
yourself
        I am afraid.
   Q.   Why?
   A.   Because if I may refer back to the second of the
messages,
        page 17 in my bundle, one in which Himmler contacts
        Jeckeln on December 1st and reads the riot act to him.
   Q.   Yes, we looked at that.
   A.   It says:  "The Jews being outplaced to the Ostland are
to

.          P-57



        be dealt with only in accordance with the guidelines
laid
        down by myself and/or by the Reichssicherheitshauptamt
on
        my orders." No mention of Hitler here.
   Q.   No.
   A.   So this is vitally important to me.  I rely on that to
        prove that Hitler was not involved in this order. The
        ordering procedure was not Hitler's. The guidelines
were
        not Hitler's.
   Q.   Mr Irving, one would not expect, given the way in
which
        Hitler's so-called orders and, they are very rarely
        orders, they are more often just an airy speech at
some
        dinner table, the words "Hitler's orders" in quotes,
were,
        as it were, dispersed down the hierarchical column of
the
        Nazis, you would not expect Hitler to issue precise
        guidelines about how the Jews were to be treated on
        arrival or how they were to be killed, would you?
   A.   This is your, evidence you are leading or a question?
   Q.   I am putting it to you that that is right, is it not?
   A.   I rely only on my interpretation of this document that
        Himmler in a secret message says, they are my order
and my
        guidelines and you have contravened them.  When the
        temptation would surely have been to say you have
        contravened the Fuhrer's orders and the Fuhrer's
        guidelines, which is a very strong point I would make
        because this is the centre point of my own contention.
   Q.   Do you not think that in light of Bruns's evidence the

.          P-58



        guidelines were whatever you do you must make sure it
does
        not come to public attention because public opinion in
        Germany will not stand for it if it does, and that
that is
        precisely what was discussed between Himmler and the
        journalist on the train or wherever it was on the 30th
        November?
   A.   I think that public opinion in Germany would have
stood
        from it from what I know of the Germans -- most
Germans
        would not have batted a eyelash at the knowledge that
        these mass killings of the Jews were going on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, they were German Jews, I think you
        agreed earlier on?
   A.   German Jews.
   MR RAMPTON:  They were Berlin Jews.
   A.   Yes, there was certainly nothing that would have
caused
        the Germans problems on the scale that the euthanasia
        killings were causing in public morale problems. Maybe
my
        interpretation of the morale in Germany is wrong, you
will
        lead evidence later on to contradict me.
   Q.   I think that probably is right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure I follow the logic of that,
the
        euthanasia programme did cause unrest to use a neutral
        term?
   A.   It caused so much unrest, my Lord, that Hitler had to
        intervene and stop it.
   Q.   Would not the shooting of large numbers of, to put it

.          P-59



        bluntly, healthy Jews, have caused even more unrest,
or at
        any rate as much unrest?
   A.   They are very -- they are parallel programmes and in
very
        many senses. A lot of the killing operations were
        conducted by the same organizations and the same
experts,
        but the campaign of Dr Goebbels against the Jews,
        propaganda campaign had, been conducted with very much
        more vehemence and personal commitment by Dr Goebbels
and
        it had converted a large element of the German,
population
        in my opinion, to anti-Semitism of a vicious and
poisonous
        degree.  Whereas his attempt to achieve the same
results
        against the crippled and disabled had been limited
just to
        one or two films and articles.  There a film called
"Ich
        Klagean", which was a film about the -- it was a film
in
        which the mentally disabled and crippled were
portrayed in
        a repulsive manner so the public would accustom
themselves
        to idea of putting them out of the way, and this kind
of
        propaganda totally failed with the German public.  The
        doctors went along with it but the general public when
        they found out about it resisted very strongly
euthanasia
        killings.  Whereas the Jews were considered to be,
        I think, in Germany fair game as a result largely of
        Dr Goebbels' propaganda.
   Q.   How good is your facility with Heinrich Himmler's
spidery
        Gothic handwriting?
   A.   The handwriting on these pages is not only Himmler, it
is

.          P-60



        also his Adjutant who still alive in Munich.
   Q.   Never mind. Let us be precise then and put
impersonally,
        with the spidery handwriting, Gothic handwriting on
these
        pages?
   A.   On these pages, I will have a shot at it, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   No, I just wonder how used you are to looking at it.
   A.   Not recently, but over the last few nights I have had
to
        strain my eyes once again, thanks to your imputations.
   Q.   When did you first see these pages which, apparently,
you
        did not see the whole of the page for 30th November
1941
        until 17th May 1998, is that right?
   A.   He maintained three separate continuous records.  He
kept
        the pocket diary.  Those pocket diaries are scattered
        around the world.  Some are in Israel now, some are in
        Russia.  I found two in the United States and gave
them to
        the German government.
                  He also maintained a telephone log which was
a
        sheet of paper on his disk, like the ones in front of
us,
        on which he would write down on one side the name of
the
        person he was talking to and on other side what they
were
        talking about.  Either he or his adjutant would also
keep
        a daily agenda of whom he was to see and when and what
        they would talk about or what they had talked about.
                  The fourth series of documents by Himmler
you
        will also run into is when he went to see Hitler, he
would
        write down on a sheet of paper his discussion points.

.          P-61



   Q.   We are coming to one of those later on today, Mr
Irving.
        Can you turn to page 12?
   A.   I should also explain that these are on microfilm
        originally in the United States which is the way I
used
        them and accessed them originally in the 1970s.
   Q.   I wan to be clear what it was you had seen when you
wrote
        your books.  Can you turn to page 12 in your little
        bundle?
   A.   Right.  This is the telephone conversations of
November
        30th.
   Q.   Bear with me, if you do not mind, just allow me to ask
        some questions.  What is this a page a copy of?  Page
12?
   A.   I just stated that he would have on his desk a sheet
of
        paper on which he would either type or insert in
        handwriting the words "telephon gesprach" which is
        T-E-L-E-P-H-O-N  G-E-S-P-R-A-C-H.
   Q.   So that is his what we can ----
   A.   This is his telephone log.
   Q.   What we could perhaps imprecisely call his telephone
log?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Would you turn over then to ----
   A.   I was the first person to find and make use of these.
   Q.   That is as may be.
   A.   Well, it is important.
   Q.   On page 14?
   A.   Page 14, yes.

.          P-62



   Q.   I ask the same question:  is that the same document?
It
        looks different.
   A.   It looks different because that is a photocopy from my
        blue volume of these which is on the desk at the other
end
        of your bench.
   Q.   I see.
   A.   Whereas the page previously, when I used it as a
facsimile
        in my book "Hitler's War", I had it rephotographed by
the
        German Government from the original in their archives
as a
        photograph rather than as a photocopy.
   Q.   So, looking at page 14, somebody has typed "telephon
        gesprach Reichsfuhrer SS" from 1st December 1941?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Who typed that?
   A.   That was typed by his adjutant.  A blank sheet of
paper
        would be typed for him and laid before him with that
        heading already prepared.
   Q.   But the other one, the earlier one, has not got that?
   A.   He did not have it, no.  That is taken straight off
the
        microfilm.  I can show that to you on the bound
volume.
   Q.   I follow that.  Let us understand it.  The second one
is
        the thing that he probably keeps in his office?
   A.   I do not think so.  He would sometimes use a presheet
--
        pretyped sheet that his adjutant had typed and
sometimes
        he would just a take a blank sheet of paper if he was
in a
        hurry and write the headings himself.

.          P-63



   Q.   Which may be something of the character of the first
one.
   A.   That is correct.  They are all in the same file, those
        ones.
   Q.   What I want to know is what you had when you wrote
your
        books.  Was it this these two sheets of paper?
   A.   I had those two sheets.
   Q.   You did not have the fuller version which we can now
        compose?
   A.   It is not a question of the fuller version.  The other
        page that you are referring to was not his telephone
log,
        but his daily agenda, his appointment book, which is
in
        Moscow and which only became available in 1998.
   Q.   We really would get on quicker if you would let me
finish
        the question.  I said the fuller version which we can
now
        compose from different sources.  As the editors of the
        Witte book have done, they have used a number of
different
        sources to make a diary for the day.
   A.   Well, they have.  They have constructed an artificial
        diary, yes, a calendar.
   Q.   Exactly, but in the days when you were writing your
books,
        the books which we are talking about, this is all you
had,
        was it?
   A.   Yes.  The Witte book, which is the one to the left of
your
        box ----

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