The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.12

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.12
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   Q.   He did not say this, did he, that you have written here?
   A.   I gave the essential part of the information, which was
        that the orders -- we are talking about here the chain of

.          P-101

        command from Hitler downwards and that the killings were
        carried out there, the SS officers on the spot and I make
        this very clear distinction, the gangsters were in the SS
        who did the killings on the Eastern Front and for that
        there is any amount of evidence, a lot of which you have
        in your own files but the evidence of Hitler's involvement
        is very tenuous and goes in the direction which I
        indicated from my small bundle.  My I also draw your
        attention to the fact this is a question and answer
        session, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   Yes, I follow that.
   A.   So there is no script.  I am not reading out from a
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think the point on the quotation
        is not a fair one given that this is which you said in
        speech because whoever transcribed it may well have
        added the quotation marks?
   A.   Not just but obviously when one is answering questions
        from the floor one is giving an encapsulated version
        the essence of a document as one recalls it.
   Q.   I follow that.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, there are two minutes, so it might
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, why not use them.
   MR RAMPTON:  If might help if we looked at the original
        of Bruns said that Altemeyer had said.
   A.   It does sometimes vary from the translation.

.          P-102

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where do we find that?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is bundle H1(vii), some of Professor Evans
   A.   It is actually from my discovery.
   Q.   No, I do not know where it comes from.
   A.   If it has a number written on the top right hand
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Unfortunately, I have not brought that
        particular file.
   THE WITNESS:   I was the person who discovered this
   MR RAMPTON:  The page, have you got that?
   A.   Not in front of me.
   Q.   You do not have the German?
   A.   No.
   Q.   It is 233, which looks to me like the British
        it is the transcript of Bruns' actual words -- before
        I ask the question I must look in the dictionary
        I have not got my own.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Massen" is underlined, is it underlined
        the translation?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I do not know who did that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, it looks original.
   A.   It is original.
   MR RAMPTON:  Shows how important it is, Mr Irving, to go
        to source, does it not.
   A.   That is a "yes".
   Q.   Do you know how those transcripts were made?  They

.          P-103

        secretly recorded, presumably by some hidden
   A.   It is still very secret but in the next door room
        everything was taken down outsize large disks like the
        fashioned 78s.
   Q.   Now can we assume that this is an accurate transcript;
        there is no reason to doubt it, is there?
   A.   They are normally very accurate transcripts.  They had
        research teams who would have extensive catalogues and
        indices to check on words and names.
   Q.   Let us look at the German, you will help me when my
        strays off course as it very likely will, the relevant
        passage is at the bottom of page 233.  It is line
        beginning der Altemeyer something triumphantly said
        quotes: "Hier ist eine Vorgugung" that is an order?
   A.   Not necessarily, that is a strange kind of order.  It
        more of an ordinance.
   Q.   Yes.  Here is an ordinance come, just come?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That says, yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   To the effect that, let us say, shall we, dass?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   This kind of or these kinds of "derartige"?
   A.   That kind of, yes.
   Q.   These kind of?
   A.   Mass shootings.

.          P-104

   Q.   Mass shootings, do you hear how I read it, mass
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   In future, in Zukunft... which means must not take
        any more, does it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Das soll vorsichtiger gomacht worden"; that means
        shall in future be more cautiously or discreetly done?
   A.   Very good, Mr Rampton, yes.
   Q.   Well, not very good, but it is not very difficult, is
        two things about it?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It translates not as "shootings on this scale", it
        translates as "shootings of this kind"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And the word "mass"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is underlined.  Do you agree that that is likely to
        reflect the transcriber's impression of the emphasis
        Bruns placed upon that word when he spoke it?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Good.  It is a very significantly different version
        the one you have, if I may use a colloquialism "been
   A.   You mean by leaving off the corollary?
   Q.   Yes, it fits in with the last part of the sentence,

.          P-105

        must be done more discreetly"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Does it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now why do you reject the second half of that message
        embrace the first half?
   A.   We have been over this, but we will attack it from a
        different angle.  We are dealing not with a verbatim
        transcript of what Altemeyer said, we are dealing with
        recollection by a German army general four years later
        what Altemeyer had said.  We are dealing with a
        SS young officer, triumphantly he declaims this.  The
        were eager to kill Jews.  They were very indignant
        orders had come down from whoever that this killing
had to
        stop.  They were eager to carry on somehow and so they
        were eager to find some kind of loophole that they
        them to go on bumping off their enemies.  So he tells
        army officer, well, we have the orders but we are
going to
        carry on doing it anyway.
   Q.   Nudge nudge, wink wink, we are going to do it more
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is perfectly plausible.
   A.   I am glad you accept this.
   Q.   That is quite a different thing from suppressing it
        entirely and perverting its meaning into something

.          P-106

   A.   I do not accept that I have done that.
   Q.   Which is what you have done.
   A.   I do not accept that.
   Q.   Very well.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Whatever it means, it is not Altemeyer
        saying, well, we are going, as it were, off our own
        carry on as before, because the words make it plain it
        part of the order that the mass shootings shall be
        out more discreetly in the future.
   A.   When I am writing this up, and also when I am talking
        about it, I am not just taking this document into
        I am taking into account what we know at both other
        and also the killing of the Germans thereupon stopped.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Right.
   A.   Thank you.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Will you show Mr Rampton if you want to
        pursue the Stuttgart business.
   A.   After lunch.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Provide it to him.  5 past 2.
                        (Luncheon adjournment)
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving and Mr Rampton, it is court 73
        from Monday.  There were problems about Chichester
        that made it unsuitable.
   MR IRVING:  Thank you very much, my Lord.  My Lord, first,
        minor matter.  I have one minor application to make

.          P-107

        I would make about this time tomorrow concerning the
        of one of the witnesses who is appearing on summons
        it would be proper to make to your Lordship.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I know.
   MR RAMPTON:  He may mean Monday, may he not, my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Monday.
   MR IRVING:  Thank you very much, Mr Rampton.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We are going to review whether we sit on
        Fridays, but for the moment I think it probably is, in
        everybody's interests to have, not least yours, Mr
   MR IRVING:  Thank you very much, my Lord.  My Lord, you
        have seen the press clipping which I put to you this
        morning ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I did.
   MR IRVING:  --- from the German newspaper.  I will not read
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you seen it, Mr Rampton?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I have.
   MR IRVING:  It refers to the year 1996.  According to this
        press clipping, the German government have asked for
        extradition to Germany on an allegation, an alleged
        offence that I committed in 1990.  The substance of
        allegation is neither here nor there.  I am only
        with the coincidence of time; the fact that after 10
        suddenly this should have occurred now, just as our

.          P-108

        here is being heard.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not want to cut you short, but I
        sympathise with your view that it is unlikely to be a
        coincidence, but what on earth can I do about it?
   MR IRVING:  Put my mind at rest, my Lord.  If we could ask
        Defendants whether they have had any advance or prior
        knowledge in any way at all of this or whether they
        contacted at all with the prosecuting authorities in
        Stuttgart, or whether they contacted the prosecuting
                  The reason I have to say this, my Lord, is
        because, as my discovery shows, one of the bodies
        I mentioned in my opening statement has corresponded
        the past with both the German Embassy and the Austrian
        Embassy asking for my arrest.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not going to compel Mr Rampton to
        up and give an answer to that question.  There are two
        ways in which you can deal with it if you want to
        it, and I do not myself feel that you would be well
        advised to do so, but if you want to pursue it, you
        either lay the foundations in your own evidence for me
        to draw the inference that it must have had something
        do with the Defendants -- that is one way of dealing
        it -- or you can cross-examine whichever of the
        Defendants' witnesses you think would be able to
        your questions on this topic.

.          P-109

                  I appreciate you understand that Professor
        Lipstadt will not be being called to give evidence so
        will not be able to ask her, but there may be other
        witnesses, I do not know, who are going to be called
        the Defendants whom you could ask.  But, to be candid,
        feeling is that we have quite enough to gnaw on this
        this case without really going down what are
        side alleys.
   MR IRVING:  Very well.   I did wish to draw it to your
        Lordship's attention in case the morning should arrive
        when this end of the bench was suddenly empty.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If that were to happen (which I think is
        unlikely) I will do my best to prevent it.  Does that
   MR RAMPTON:  So indeed would I.  Although your Lordship
        you are not going to compel me to answer, but if I may
        respectfully say so, rightly, Mr Irving did ask me to
        ask.  I did ask and the answer is no.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There you are.  You do not have to accept
        that, but that is what you are told.
   MR IRVING:  Quite clearly, I am sure that Mr Rampton would
        have made that statement if it was in any way ^^-- I
        accept that assurance, but I will also advance this
        particular episode as an instance of the kind of
        that I have faced and the problems that I have faced
        view of the allegations and the repugnant suggestions

.          P-110

        by this Defendant and others.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have dealt with that very clearly in
        evidence and, of course, I have that well in mind.
   MR IRVING:  It has a certain actuality about it which is
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is true.  Yes, if you would like to
                        MR DAVID IRVING, continued.
                  Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, have we finished, at any rate
        the time being, with H17, because if so I will hand it
        back because I have your copy.  That is the German
        of Bruns' statement.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  I am afraid I have not quite finished
        Bruns.  I thought I had, but, as usual, that is the
        trouble with adjournments; things occur to one that
        might have asked and did not.  But, for completeness,
        I will ask.  (To the witness):  Mr Irving, do you
        have there the file D3(i) which is the file of
        articles or talks by you?
   A.   D3(i), yes.
   Q.   I am looking at tab 30 which is the print of your
        the JHR conference in October '92.
   A.   Yes.

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