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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.08

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.08
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   I am afraid, Mr Irving, I cannot possibly accept that the
        planners in Berlin had any such idea in their head by late
        1941 whatsoever.
   A.   Mr Rampton, you and I operate from different criteria.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Before you go on, Mr Rampton, can I just ask
        this?  My impression is -- I may be completely wrong about
        this -- that these reports from the Einsatzgruppen
        continued to come in after the 1st December 1941.
   A.   Oh, yes.  There is the famous one of December 1942 that we
   Q.   The invasion of Russia.
   A.   That is Russian Jews being liquidated.
   Q.   Going back to Berlin?
   A.   They are going back to Berlin and Hitler is in East
        Prussia.  I have to keep on reminding the court of this.
   Q.   We are not so much concerned so much with Hitler at the
        moment, but Berlin.  Berlin must have known that the
        shootings were continuing on, as you would accept, a
        massive scale?
   A.   I accept this my Lord, yes.
   Q.   To that extent, would you accept it is systematic, or
        would you say not?
   A.   I think to the extent that Mely was systematic, the
        Vietnamese war was systematic, and these things
        They are subsequently covered up by the people in

.          P-66

        But it is very difficult to make definitive statements
        the absence of any evidence one way or the
        other.  I prefer just to leave the facts to speak for
        themselves, rather than try and fill in the gaps and
        the dots.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  Look at the bottom of this document, Mr
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Just above the handwritten "FN8", you will see
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Of executions carried out, 137,346?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   From all over the Einsatz commander 3 area, whichever
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   But it included Kovno and Vilner amongst its places.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Have you gone done the figures on this report?
   A.   No, but I will walk through them with you if you wish.
   Q.   Well, it is going to be easier, of course you will
        time to check whether I am right or not, of 137,000
        roughly speaking, people executed, about 98.5 per cent
        identified as having been Jews; men, women and
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And this report goes back to Berlin?

.          P-67

   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What happens to Herr Jaeger, whatever his rank might
        been?  Was he sacked?
   A.   That I do not know.
   Q.   Imprisoned?
   A.   That I do not know.
   Q.   Court martialled?
   A.   Nothing happened to Jeckeln either, who was told by
        chief of the SS he had overstepped guidelines.  I
        have thought that was about as serious a reprimand as
        can get.
   Q.   This is completely at random, really, because one can
        any number of examples; the massacre of 33,000 Jews in
        go, Jews from Kiev in two days 29th and 30th September
   A.   Do you wish to lead evidence on that?
   Q.   No, I want to know if you know about it.
   A.   You wanted to?
   Q.   I want to know if you know about it.
   A.   About Babiyar (?)
   Q.   1941, yes.
   A.   I do not know in detail about it.  I do not know any
        forensic detail about it.  I know what the perception
   Q.   That is contained in one of these Heydrich --
   A.   If you say so.
   Q.   Do not these things jump out at you, Mr Irving?  This

.          P-68

        number of recorded deaths is being shipped back
        laboriously, and carefully typewritten reports by the
        murderers to the head of the security service, call it
        what you like?
   A.   I accept that, but this is of great interest to a
        Holocaust historian, but not to an Hitler historian,
        you appreciate the difference.
   Q.   I do not think there is a difference, Mr Irving.
There is
        two reasons, at least, why I -- or more than two but
        two will do for the present without going the
        out.  The first is that letter from Muller to the
        Einsatzgruppen at the beginning of August 1941, which
I am
        sure you are familiar with?
   A.   I think the Fuhrer takes an interest in ----
   Q.   No, I am saying the Fuhrer will be getting continuous
        reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen?
   A.   The Fuhrer has asked to be given.
   Q.   Or whatever, the Fuhrer has asked to be given
        reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen?
   A.   Can you remind us when this letter came into the
   Q.   No, Mr Irving, please do not keep changing the
   A.   Well, this is important, because I am accused of
        manipulating documents before me when I wrote my
        this letter has only recently come to the attention of

.          P-69

   Q.   You say, you do accept it as evidence of system, I
        this is the effect of your answer, going as far up the
        tree as Heydrich, but not as far as Hitler?
   A.   There is now evidence from that document that Hitler
        to be kept informed of the activities of the
   Q.   I cannot tell you myself when that document first came
        into the public domain.  I will find out.  --
   A.   Well, I can tell you from my knowledge, it came when
        Moscow archives debouched what they had and historians
        started going through them.
   Q.   -- you are, however, fully familiar with what we shall
        certainly propose is one of the progeny of that order,
        that Hitler should see what the Einsatzgruppen were
        at least, which is report No. 51 signed by Heydrich
        Himmler on September 1941?
   A.   I do not accept there is a direct connection between
        stray document of August 1941 and the December 1942
        document, which is one of a long series of reports by
        Himmler to Hitler on interesting things.
   Q.   It is not a stray document in any sense at all.  It is
        sheet that actually went straight into the pen.  It
        destined for Hitler, and as you accepted -- I cannot
        remember which day -- Hitler probably saw it.
   A.   December 29th.
   Q.   Yes.

.          P-70

   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is not a stray document?
   A.   I think I referred to in my books. I have given the
        figures.  I have stated the facts and I said it was
        to Hitler.  I have not concealed these documents.  I
        the first person to have found them, and immediately
        brought them to the attention of the world.
   Q.   Why then do you turn your face so firmly against any
        possibility that Hitler was at the heart or the root
        the origin of this exercise?
   A.   Mr Rampton, the distinction may be a bit too subtle,
        I am not saying that, what I am saying is there is no
        evidence that he was. Possibly we are on the same
        but I am saying that there is a total shortage of
        that Hitler was being informed of what was going on in
        these mass shootings and that when he did know he took
        steps to stop it, and that there is this one instance
of a
        document going from Himmler to Hitler which obviously
        to be brought to the attention of my readers, which I
        But otherwise there is very little evidence to support
        contention such as are you trying to make out.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, the Muller document, which I
        you did not know about because it had not emerged does
        provide some support for the ----
   A.   Indeed, I put it in the latest edition of the book, my
        Lord, because it is clearly a relevant document for

.          P-71

        to know about.  I think so far before the December
        document it would be adventurous to try and draw a
        link between them.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is no evidence at all that these mass
        shootings of Jews generally did stop, is there, on
        of any order from anybody?
   A.   Mass shootings of German Jews stopped for several
   Q.   That, as I said the other day, is common ground
   A.   Then they gradually picked up again because of the
        criminality of the officers on the Eastern Front who
        these victims in their charge.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But you are now talking about non-German
        or Jews who are not German?
   A.   I do not think there was any pause in the killing of
        non-German Jews.  I think they were quite happy to get
        of them.
   MR RAMPTON:  As a matter of fact there was.  Again this was
        something which I do not know whether you have seen it
        before or not, I can tell you in a moment where it
        from.  Have you got H3(i) there still?
   A.   Yes.  Page?
   Q.   Could you turn to footnote 50.  It is about halfway
        through the file.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  To what, Mr Rampton.
   MR RAMPTON:  Footnote 50, FN 50.  It merely reflects the

.          P-72

        footnote in Professor Browning's report.  This is one
        these -- I think it is one of these (German spoken)
        he tells us that it is.  No. 10 for February 1942.  No
        I have given it the wrong name.  If you look at its
        page, this is a reprint.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Which he translates, and no doubt correctly, as
        and situation of the Einsatzgruppen of the security
        and the SD in the USSR; do you see that at the bottom
        left hand column, Mr Irving?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Yes.  If you turn over the page, the right hand
        halfway down the page, at letter C, you see a separate
        entry; "Juden"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Will you please, it says: "Nacht... Juden as... kind";
        tell me what that means.
   A.   After in the Baltic provinces the Jewish question can
        regarded as virtually solved and dealt with.
   Q.   Carry on.
   A.   The clarification of this problem, the solution of
        problem in the remaining occupied territories of the
        is continuing, making further steps; do you wish me to
   Q.   No, there is no need for that.  That is Heydrich
        that in the Ostland, that is --

.          P-73

   A.   Well, we do not know that because I have only two
pages of
        this report but.  You are saying it is a report by
   Q.   -- I do not know, it may not be.  That is what
        Browning tells us.  It may be something else, in fact.
        says on page 16 of this report in early 1942 Heydrich
        reported -- you can take it up with him if you do not
        accept it is Heydrich.
   A.   I just do not have the complete document, so I cannot
   Q.   That means, does it not, in effect this, no need to
        any more of the Jews in Ostland because they would all
        have gone, nearly all gone?
   A.   It does not say that.  It just --
   Q.   That is what it means.
   A.   -- the problem has gone away --
   Q.   Yes, I know, look at it as an historian as opposed to
        literary critic; that is what it means.
   A.   -- I read out what it meant.  I gave you the literal
        translation of it.
   Q.   I am not asking for a translation, the input,
        of what you read out is that there is no need to do
        more mass shootings in the Ostland because they have
        been killed?
   A.   This conclusion can be drawn from it, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Ostland" there is referring to what?

.          P-74

   A.   Baltic provinces, three Baltic states.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship will see the problem in other
        Einsatzgruppen areas in a moment.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Because the East is sometimes a reference
        the front with Russia, is it not?
   A.   Well --
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, the Ostland is specifically though I
        am I right?
   A.   It is a reference to Baltic provinces.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The Baltic States.
   A.   Sometimes "the East" is also a euphemism for something
        uglier, too as I point out in my books.
   MR RAMPTON:  The very next document, Mr Irving, says
        Browning, is a protocol, it is a German word, my Lord,
        is FN 51, just the next document after the divider,
        I hope.
   MR RAMPTON:  The protocol, it is very difficult to read.
Of a
        meeting held, I think, in Minsk on 29th January.  You
        somebody has also written "um" 29th January, do you
        that Mr Irving?
   A.   Yes, but it is not a date, the formality for writing a
        date like "London" and December 1st 1941, in German
        would always have "dien".

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