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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.18

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.18
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   Even for an idiot like me it is an easy word, it means
        "placed before"?
   A.   No, "lagen" is to lay --
   Q.   Laid before, more gently than placed before.
   A.   -- something which should be more impressive for me would
        have been the phrase (German spoken) "the Fuhrer has taken
        cognisance of"; you will always find that on the
   Q.   At all events, I am right it does not have any
        consequences for the murderers of these 363,000 Jews?
   A.   Mr Rampton, this is not a hanging document; I think if
        this document were to be shown to an English jury in a
        murder case they would say, well, it is interesting and
        probably the guy did it, but I will not send him to the
        gallows just on the basis of this one document.
   Q.   Probably, that is right.
   A.   Yes, well, I have allowed that word.

.          P-160

   Q.   Thank you very much, probably, that is all I need,
        you, Mr Irving, Hitler, as we observed before is not
        trial here.
                  Will you have a look with me, please, at an
        earlier event, which is a table talk of Hitler's on
        25th, it was your remark --
   A.   25th October 1941?
   Q.   -- that put me in mind.  Here I am afraid we are going
        get involved in an argument about German grammar, but
        never mind, I think I can cope.  On page 323 of
        Evans' report, this comes from page 377 of Goebbels,
        letter A.  I will read what Professor Evans says:
                   "In his book "Goebbels" Irving comments on
        deportation of Jews from Berlin, starting in October
        1941:  'Hitler was neither consulted nor informed'.
                  As a matter of fact you know that to be
        do you not, Hitler was --
   A.   I was reading Hitler --
   Q.   -- I am so sorry, I quoted from the book.  "Hitler was
        neither consulted nor informed".
   A.   -- deported the Jews from Berlin -- I would need to
        the whole paragraph I am afraid in my book before I
        a judgment on that one sentence.
   Q.   OK.  I will come back to that.  That is a minor point.
        But if you like to we my be just to deal with this
        quickly.  Perhaps we better have the Goebbels book to

.          P-161

        at.  It is page 377.  Have you got your own copy
   A.   300 and?
   Q.   377, chapter 43 entitled "Exodus".  I will put it in
        context by reading the top of the first complete
   A.   By Holocaust denier, David Irving, right?
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving.  "His mass expulsion of the Jews from
        Berlin was beginning.  On October 14th 1941 SS
        signed the formal order as National Chief of Police
        the deportations began the next day.  500 or 1,000 at
        time, family by family, the Berlin Jews were
rounded... in
        synagogue in ... loaded aboard passenger trains...
        freighting to the East."
                  Then you list some of the trains.  "All four
        were bound for the ghetto at Lodz between October 18th
        November 2nd confirmed Speyer's diaries, some 400,500
        Jews were'evacuated'" releasing to him... Gauleiter
        Goebbels one thousand ... (reading to the words) ...
        supposedly for bombed out Berliners ... went to their
        closest... Hitler was neither consulted nor informed";
        about what, Mr Irving?
   A.   About --
   Q.   Was he neither consulted nor informed?
   A.   About this particular deportation phase, this wave of
        deportations from Berlin.
   Q.   -- can you turn on to page 330 of Professor Evans'

.          P-162

   A.   330?
   Q.   329.  It is a few pages on from where we were, but
        your finger where I was, paragraph 2:
                  "As far as the expulsions are concerned,
        Goebbels noted in his diary on 19th August 1941 that
        Hitler had approved them in principle:  'Apart from...
        Fuhrer gave me approval to ... (reading to the words)
        as soon as first possibility of transport offered
        itself'."  Is that a correct translation of what is in
        Goebbels' diary?
   A.   Yes, it is, it is also in my Goebbels biography.
   Q.   I did not ask you that, is it a correct translation?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You have answered my second question, and it is an
        of which you were aware?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then says Professor Evans this: "On 18th September
        Himmler in fact had told his subordinate in the
        Warthegau"; that would be Griser (?) I suppose, would
   A.   The --
   Q.   What?
   A.   -- well, no, Griser was not Himmler's subordinate.
        (?) would have come directly under Hitler.
   Q.   It does not matter.  "Himmler in fact had told his
        subordinate... Fuhrer wishes the old Reich and the

.          P-163

        Protectorate to be ... (reading to the words) ... as
        quickly as possible.  I am thus aiming to transport
        Jews of the Old Reich and Protectorate if possible
        the end of this year into the eastern
        territories ... (reading to the words) ... two years
        ago... as a first step, in order to move them further
        still to the east next spring." This is September
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "One month later" says Professor Evans "on September
        1941 Goebbels noted in his diary that Hitler had made
        final decision on the matter.
                  I can bring the Fuhrer... of internal
        problems to decide upon:  the Fuhrer is of the opinion
        that the Jews must be taken out of the whole of
        bit by bit.  The first... free of Jews are Berlin,
        and Prague... I have the hope that we shall succeed
        in the course of this year in transporting a
        portion of Berlin's Jews off to the East."
                  Now I suppose you were aware of that entry
        were you not, Mr Irving?
   A.   You suppose wrongly, that was a diary entry which I
        not got.
   Q.   It is a diary entry you never had?
   A.   I have not got it, no, I have never seen it.
   Q.   Then I think one has to look at page 374 of Goebbels.
        may not be right.

.          P-164

   A.   I thought my memory was correct, September 23rd I
        but not the 24th.
   Q.   Yes, I think that is right.
   A.   It is difficult for me to remember over the last ten
        to remember which entries I have seen and which I have
   Q.   I would accept it in general that is probably right,
        have not seen this entry? Had you seen the Himmler
note or
        whatever it is?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Have you seen the Himmler document?
   A.   The Griser, yes, of course.
   Q.   Yes, right.  It is very unlikely, is it not, that in
        light of these two entries of 19th August by Goebbels
        18th September by Himmler that Hitler did not know
        the deportation?
   A.   Yes, you are right, I should have phrased it
        I should have said there is no evidence that Hitler
        consulted or informed.
   Q.   Little point in a way, Mr Irving, but again you see
        points are cumulative.  Perhaps significant, because
        again you are giving Hitler a clear acquittal when the
        evidence is suggestive that he probably did know about
   A.   On the contrary, an acquittal of what?  I have made it
        perfectly plain beyond peradventure that Hitler gave
        orders for the expulsion of the Jews. And the fact he

.          P-165

        not informed on a particular phase of it is not
   Q.   So, it is only four trains or whatever it is you are
        talking about?
   A.   The fact it is now beginning in Berlin, and that it is
        happening at this moment.
   Q.   It is not a big point in your narrative?
   A.   The fact that I decided to write in the short form
        than the long form part is part of the general
tendency to
        books as short as possible.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is a complete non-point, is it not?
Why on
        earth should it matter whether Hitler was informed
        these four particular trains?
   A.   It is really a non-point.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  Thank you very much.  No, I am sorry,
        Mr Irving, unusually I have made a concession that
        I should not have done.  You take your Goebbels book
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   This is why I need a team of 40 people, because I do
        have your memory.
   A.   Be glad you do not have my memory.
   Q.   I have not done years of research on this subject,
only a
        few months.  274 of Goebbels.
   A.   274?
   Q.   374, I beg your pardon.  After the bit you notice

.          P-166

        September 23rd?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   There is an asterisk, then there comes this: "Hitler
        confirmed to him that little by little all Jews were
to be
        expelled from Berlin Vienna and Prague, note 91"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Please turn to page 642, note 91, diary September
   A.   Very good.  Yes.
   Q.   Once your memory failed you did it not, Mr Irving?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So you had seen this entry?
   A.   Shot out of water on that one, I am afraid.
   Q.   Yes.  Why if it is not in historical terms a
        event, because you concede that Hitler had ordered the
        deportations generally from the Outreich and the
        Protectorate, and indeed from Berlin?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Why bother to mention whether or not Hitler was
        or informed?
   A.   When you write paragraphs you should have a topic
        paragraph, a topic sentence beginning -- it is a
        literary -- not a ploy, a device, a literary device,
        the beginning of a chapter you should have a topic
        paragraph at the beginning of a chapter and a topic
        sentence at the beginning of a paragraph.  It is a way

.          P-167

        helping the reader, a little clue to reader what is
        following.  So what matters in this paragraph is not
        opening floscal (?) as the Germans would say, not that
        little opening throw away line, but what then follows,
        which is the quotation from the table talk.  I do not
        blame you for concentrating on a throw away line, but
I am
        going to concentrate on the table talk which now
   Q.   This was by way of introduction to the table talk,
        Mr Irving.  It is a little point, but I am going to
        suggest at the end of this case that every time Hitler
        floats into the picture in your books, it is in order
        him to be, as it were, conferred innocence.
   A.   Every time?  Every time?
   Q.   More or less.
   A.   Ah.
   Q.   There is no point in putting in that sentence except
        say "poor old Adolf did not know about this beastly
        business", yet again.
   A.   Mr Rampton, have you ever written books that have to
   Q.   Yes, as a matter of fact, I have.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Not sure how well they sell.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, they are meant to be sold.
   A.   I had an exceedingly good American editor who taught
        will over again how to write books, that is one of the
        things he taught me, always have a topic sentence at

.          P-168

        beginning of a paragraph, that is what I would call a
        topic sentence.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But where does the reader of "Goebbels"
        this was all Hitler policy anyway to transport the
        out of the Reich?
   A.   I beg your pardon?
   Q.   That is a question to you; where does the reader of
        "Goebbels" learn that this was all Hitler policy
        to transport the Jews out of the German Reich?
   A.   Probably where I quote the Griser telegram --
   Q.   I am sure, but where do you --
   A.   -- I would have to look in the index.
   Q.   -- do not take time, you do somewhere refer to that
   A.   Yes.  I repeatedly say that on Hitler rests the
        for ordering the expulsion, but what happens when they
        arrive there is the moot point.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I just does not have the reference in
   A.   I will find it.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is not an important point, and I apologise
        I spent a bit too long on it, but there it is.  It is
        next part I am truly interested in.  "Ten days after
        forced exodus began [he, that is Hitler]
        referred ... (reading to the words) ... to the way the
        Jews had started this war.  'Let nobody tell me Hitler
        added that despite that we cannot park them in the

.          P-169

        marshier parts of Russia" By the way he added it is not a
        bad thing that public rumour attributes to us a plan to
        exterminate the Jews.  He pointed out however that he had
        no intention of starting anything at present.  'There is
        no point in adding to one's difficulties at a time like
   A.   I am ready for you.

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