Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.22 Last-Modified: 2000/08/01 Q. Let us see how it goes on: "Why should I look at a Jew with other eyes than at a Russian prisoner of war? Many are dying in the prison camps because we have been driven into this situation by the Jews. But what can I do about that? Why then did the Jews instigate the war?" The whole undercurrent Hitler's, I hesitate to call it thinking, but his ideology seems to have been that somehow the Jews were responsible for having started the war? A. I would look at the sentence before where he says: "Why should I look at the Jews differently than from a Russian prisoner of war? Many are dying", he says, many of the Russians are dying. I think you omitted the emphasis that that sentence needed. Q. I do not know. I shall get caput, collapses, dies, it does not matter whether you kill them or whether they die, it does not matter, does, it, so long as they are all got rid of? This is Professor Evans: "Hitler came back to . P-198 his prophecy of the extermination of the Jews is a widely-transmitted speech in the Reichstag on 30th January 1942", no doubt it was taken to be an anniversary of the speech on the ---- A. This is the old gramophone record. He keeps playing it. Q. But on the same date two or three years later? A. He does it on various dates, 8th November 1942. Q. "Irving merely comments that in his speech Hitler reminded his audience of his prophetic warning to the world's Jews in 1939." That is page 464 of Hitler's War 1991 which I think, well, is it, it does not seem to be on my page 464, but never mind. It might be a different edition I suspect. A. You are looking at the eye for an eye and the tooth for a tooth? Q. I have that. Where is that in Hitler's War? A. It is not in it. Q. We will read it then: "In fact Hitler was much more explicit. I have already pronounced in the Reichstag tag on 1st September 1939, and I guard myself against premature prophecies, that this war will not end as the Jews imagine, namely that the European Aryan peoples will be exterminated." The word is? A. "Ausgerottet". Q. I cannot find it in the German text? A. Line three of the footnote. . P-199 Q. Yes. How would you render that? A. Render what? Q. "Ausgerottet" in that context? A. He is clearly not saying that it is going lead to the destruction or killing of all the European Aryan peoples. That is a clear indication that "ausrottung" is a very elastic word. I did not think we wanted to have the argument about "ausrottung" today. Q. "Zondern das Ergebnis dieses Krieges die Vernichtung des Judentums sein wird", but that the result of this war will be the ---- A. Destruction. Q. --- annihilation, destruction, extermination, call it what you like, of Jewry. "For the first time the truly old Jewish law being applied this time", "Aug um Aug, Zahn um Zahn", yes? A. Yes. Q. Yes? A. Yes, a rebel-rousing speech to the German Parliament. Q. A rebel-rousing speech. What is he rousing the rebels to do or approve of, do you think? A. I have no idea, but when people make speeches to Parliament they tend to shoot their mouth off and they say what the people listening want to hear. Quoting the Old Testament, two anti-Semitics is quite effective. Q. Now 25th February. . P-200 A. Your criticism is, of course, that I did not quote that particular sentence in my book. Q. It is my consistent criticism that whereas anything that puts Hitler in the least danger of being, what shall we say, done for the murder of the Jews, to put it crudely, you take it out or you leave it out. A. I do not agree. I put in the meat of that which is that once again he repeated his prophetic warning to the Jews that if they started a war they would not survive it, which is the crude way of putting that prophecy of his, and that there is no need to embellish it really with this kind of anti-Semitic jibe that he made in Parliament. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which bit did you not include? A. The bit about the eye for the eye last, the sentence my Lord. Q. The rest I think you did include? A. The rest I did include, and one has to remember the constraints that are on an author not to overwrite, not to write a book that is twice as long as the publishers are going to accept. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Speaking for myself I would have thought you did get the guts of it, if that is all you left out. A. I appreciate the point Mr Rampton makes. MR RAMPTON: Page 415, I have not run a check to see whether we find all these passages in your books or not at the moment, but on a slightly different tack it is a question . P-201 of whether the table talk is really so, what shall we say, unmisstated as you put it, as you suggest. "At Hitler's table talk on 22nd February 1942, the following statement was recorded: It is one of the greatest revolutions there has ever been in the world. The Jew will be identified! The same fight that Pasteur and Koch had to fight must be led by us today. Innumerable sicknesses have their origin in one bacillus: the Jew. Japan would also have got them", the bacilli, I think, "if it had remained open any longer to the Jew. We will get well when we eliminate the Jew", and the word he uses, is reported as having used, is "eliminieren"? A. "Eliminieren", yes. Q. That is pretty blunt, is it not? A. Yes, but there is no suggestion that I have not repeatedly and on every occasion stated when Hitler referred to the Jews as "bascilli" that need to be eliminated. Of course, I did. Q. What does antibiotic medicine do to bascilli? A. Good Lord! You are not asking me as a medical expert, surely? Q. Come on, Mr Irving, you are older than I am. I do not say you remember Pasteur and Koch, but, for heaven's sake, we all know what antibiotics do, they kill germs? A. Yes. Q. That is what Pasteur discovered, was it not? . P-202 A. He has not actually talked about antibiotics in here, has he? I do not want to start nit-picking which is the opposite of what you are doing. Q. The meaning of this is kill the germs, the Jewish germs, is it not? A. Eliminating them. Q. How do you get rid of germs except by killing? A. I have no idea. You can wash your hands in soap and water. There are various different ways of getting rid of germs. That is why he has used word "eliminate". Q. That is right, you send them to Madagascar or Russia in a plastic bag. A. That is the July 1942 entry which you did not want to have read out. Q. I am coming to that. I do not use the same kind of ellipses, Mr Irving, as I suggest you do. A. I am aware of the fact that we are coming up to the end of the afternoon and you have left the public without some of the best items which are in my favour, if they are going to be mentioned at all. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think we can co-ordinate the evidence. It is a nice idea! Let us have one more, shall we? MR RAMPTON: We are going to have the next one on 24th February. A. Can we not have July 1942? . P-203 Q. We will get to it tomorrow and you can have your audience, but you cannot be my stage manager, I am afraid, Mr Irving. On 24th February 1942 a statement by Hitler was announced to NSDAP party members in Munich which again made a reference to his prophecy." Before I read it, Mr Irving, I want to know whether you say this is something which was cooked up by party officials without reference to Hitler? A. I am not going to express an opinion on that. It is taken out of Max Demarus' collection of press clippings, effectively. So it is a published statement, published in the German press. So it actually cannot have a very sinister connotation, surely. Q. I do not know. A. I thought this was top secret what was going on. Q. I do not know if you read it. "Today the idea of our National Socialist, and that of the fascist revolution, have conquered great and powerful states, and my prophecy will find its fulfilment, that through this war Aryan humankind will not be annihilated, but the Jew will be", ausgerottet werden wird, will be ausgerottet? A. Yes, he has used the fifth or sixth meaning of the word "ausgerottet" rather than the primary meaning. Q. Well, we might go back to the Langscheite overnight or . P-204 some greater authority, I do not know. A. I have a whole shelf of dictionaries. Q. I am not going to do it now. "Whatever the struggle may bring with it or however long it may last, this will be its final result, and only then with the removal of these parasites with a long period of understanding between nations, and with it true peace, come upon the suffering." Again, it is similar to the reference to the "bacillus". Of course in one sense it is metaphorical. A. It does not really help us, does it, actually, getting rid of the Jews? Q. If you talk about ridding a house of its parasites --- - A. "Beseitigung", getting rid of, yes. Q. Yes, or exterminating them ---- A. I am thinking of somebody with a broom, like, "get out of here, "get out of here". Q. Parasites, no, I think not, Mr Irving. What I am suggesting is that Hitler did not need at his table talk or in his public occasions to talk about gas chambers or shootings, indeed he would not have done, but he is talking in terms of genocide, is he not? A. So he is announcing it in the press, "We are going to be carrying out genocide"? This is a press clipping. Q. This is an announcement to party members? A. It is in the press, the VB in the footnote that has been . P-205 printed in the press. It is a public statement, the party policy. Q. It portrays a state of mind if you put these things together, does it not? A. Yes, but, on the other hand, I do emphasise this is a public statement, so he is hardly going to out saying, "yes, we are going to be liquidating all the Jews". Q. If we had but this one public statement to say that Hitler intended physical annihilation of the Jews, "biologische vernichtung" but this one document, I would not be suggesting ---- A. Excuse me, he does not say "biologische vernichtung" in this document. Q. Wait, Mr Irving. Sometimes you do not listen. A. That is manipulation again. Q. No, Mr Irving, you do not listen. I said if we had this document and this document alone to convict Hitler of an intention to achieve a biologische vernichtung, it would not be very good evidence. Do you see? I do not take documents one by one. I take the cumulative effect. A. This is part of your chain of documents. Q. If you like, Mr Irving, yes. A. This chain against chain. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that a convenient moment? You have finished with that. MR RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord. I am going to come on to one or two . P-206 more of these table talks. As I promised I would, tomorrow morning. MR JUSTICE GRAY: At some stage will you be looking, if not, well, so be it, at the very early statements which are pretty much the same. MR RAMPTON: They are very much the same. They are all collected in the first part of Longerich. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may be sufficient. MR RAMPTON: That may be sufficient. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving may want to comment on whether he takes those into account when he is evaluating Hitler's knowledge. MR RAMPTON: If I may say so, that is very fair. Perhaps I ought to do that ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not this evening. A. I shall certainly be taking it into account in cross-examination of Longerich, which is probably the proper time to deal with them. < (The witness withdrew). MR JUSTICE GRAY: 10.30 tomorrow. (The court adjourned until the following day) . P-207
Home ·
Site Map ·
What's New? ·
Search
Nizkor
© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012
This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and
to combat hatred.
Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.
As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may
include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and
provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist
and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.