The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.04

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.04
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

.          P-28
   Q.   I do not know it actually.  It is very interesting, but
        I do not understand what it has to do with an answer to my
   A.   Because it was typical of the tragedies that were being
        caused by the evil genius, Dr Goebbels, in his ^^ doktrene
        insistence on the execution of these anti-Jewish measures.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we are sliding away, are we not, from
        is what is going to be put.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am completely baffled why it is obvious that
        that diary entry is a reference to the Gottschalt
   A.   Because the previous diary has been full of the Gottschalt
        tragedy and we happen to know what happened to Mr
        Gottschalt and his family.
   Q.   Shall we have a look see what the "evil genius
        Dr Goebbels" actually wrote in his diary.  Keep what you
        said he wrote open, if you please, and turn to page 338 of
        Professor Evans' report.  I remind you you wrote only
        this:  "The Fuhrer again instructed Goebbels to pursue a
        policy against the Jews 'that does not cause us endless
        difficulties' and told him to go easy on mixed marriages
        in the future."
                  Now, please, look at paragraph 1 under (D)
        brackets on page 338 of Professor Evans' report.  I
        the English first:
                  "The Fuhrer also completely agrees with my
        with reference to the Jewish question."  According to
        Dr Goebbels, there was no water between them in
        to how the Jews should be treated.
   A.   I put my comment on that in my foot note saying, well,

.          P-29

        clearly there was because here is Hitler saying, "Do
        keep causing me problems".
   Q.   Let us see what he reports Hitler as actually having
                  "He", the Fuhrer, that is, "wants an
        policy against the Jews which, however, does not cause
        unnecessary difficulties".  Three things about that,
        Mr Irving.  The word "energetic" has been omitted by
        You have omitted the word "however", "alladings" in
        German, and you have mistranslated "unnecessary",
        "unnotige", as "endless"?
   A.   The latter one I accept.
   Q.   Where is the ----
   A.   But that is not -- that does not really seriously
        the burden of what I have said.
   Q.   You have altered the whole sense of that sentence,
        you not?
   A.   May I just comment?  The word "alladings" is a much
        stronger form of "however".  The normal word for
        is "aber". "Alladings" is a much stronger word than
        "however".  It implies a much stronger contrast.
   Q.   Where is the word "enagische" in your translation?
   A.   I have not omitted that from the quoted passage.
   Q.   Oh, you have just ignored it.
   A.   No.  On the contrary, Mr Rampton, you are not obliged
        put in every single word from a sentence unless you
put it

.          P-30

        in quotation marks, and I will have a word or two to
        about that with Mr Evans when the time comes.  In one
        quotation he left out 86 words, three sentences, five
        stops and two semi-colons.
   Q.   Well, well, Mr Irving, I have sufficient confidence in
        Mr Evans to think that he may be able to deal with
   A.   I may be able to shake your confidence when the time
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Don't let us -- it not fair -- this is
        point that is being put to you -- the way you
        this in your book on Goebbels suggests that a wholly
        passive policy towards the Jews is what Hitler is
        Goebbels should be followed?
   A.   My Lord ----
   Q.   And, in fact, the word "energetic" is the opposite
        of "passive", is that a fair way of putting the point?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is another complete perversion of the ----
   A.   I have not used the word "passive".  I have not used
        word "energetic", my Lord.  I have left it neutral.
        have to bear in mind that we are not dealing with a
        transcript of what Hitler said by court reporters.  We
        dealing with a passage that had been filtered through
        evil brain of Dr Goebbels who I have shown in the rest
        the book has a track record of doing things first and
        claiming in his diary afterwards that he had the
        sanction for it.  For example, when he made Hitler

.          P-31

        as Vice President which was a disaster for him in
        events like that.
                  The Goebbels' diary again and again and
        and the Kristallnacht, the Reich, the Night of Broken
        Glass, is another example of Goebbels doing something
        first and subsequently claiming in his diary that he
        Hitler's sanctions.
                  So you have to be very careful before you
        the Goebbels' diary as pure gold source material.  You
        have to refilter it out of that evil brain.
   Q.   Mr Irving, can we please take this in two stages?  Do
        agree that the version which you have given in the
book is
        completely contrary in sense to that which Dr Goebbels
        in his diary?
   A.   On the contrary, it is quite plain from the Goebbels'
        diaries that the suicide of the Gottschalt family had
        caused uproar in Berlin life.  This is, undoubtedly,
        they are referring to, the fact that the onset of the
        Holocaust in Berlin, if I can put it that way, the
        deportation of train loads of Jews beginning at this
        is leading to these human tragedies.  It is precisely
        Hitler does not want.  He is now fighting a desperate
        on the Eastern Front, things are turning nasty, the
        have begun, the frost is setting in, and here is this
        little man in Berlin who is causing him totally
        problems, and Hitler saying, "By all means go ahead

.          P-32

        your doktriner programmes but stop causing me
        difficulties".  And this is the meaning of that
        Goebbels has written it down in the diary and you have
        refilter it back into the correct sense because, you
        remember, it has been given negative spin by Goebbels
        you have to give it the right spin again.
                  Goebbels, remember, is an arch liar.  He is
        minister of propaganda.  The diaries show this again
        again -- an extremely dangerous weapon to use.
   Q.   He is always telling the truth when he says something
        which in your mind is favourable to him, but whenever
        says anything which is unfavourable to Hitler, he in
        mind is a liar and, therefore, you feel justified in
        obliterating that from the text of your books, do you
   A.   Mr Rampton, I do not want to labour the point, but I
        sure you are familiar with witnesses and you know how
        sort out the evidence they provide which is evidence
        their own self-interest and evidence against their
        self-interest.  If you apply that kind of criterion to
        statements and diaries -- for example, what he writes
        about himself, you have to be mistrustful about, even
        he writes about Hitler you have to be mistrustful
        there is the element of the hero worship; but, on the
        other hand, what he writes about two or three, C or D,
        shall we say, in the alphabet, persons is more likely
        be accurate because he would have no axe to grind one

.          P-33

        or the other.  You have to apply these kinds of
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving.  I will put it once more in order to
        the reader to think that Hitler's policy towards the
        or the policy that he wanted was really quite kind,
        gentle, much less ferocious and severe than Dr
        you have actually doctored the words which Dr Goebbels
        reports Hitler having said to him?
   A.   What is the essence of this quotation, Mr Rampton?
        essence of this quotation is not all the rest of those
        eight lines quoted by your Mr Evans.  Yesterday the
        quotation to the words does not cause us unnecessary
        difficulties.  That is Adolf Hitler saying to
         "Don't cause us unnecessary difficulties" and there
is no
        way you can talk yourself out of that particular
        quotation, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   We can echo that with what General Bruns reported and
        Wisliceny reported.  "Do not let us make a stink about
        but let us be very energetic in this persecution,
        cautious, careful, concealed"?
   A.   Well, no doubt you will advance documents and lead
        evidence in that direction, but those very words,
        Hitler, quoted even by the victim himself, Goebbels
        himself, at whom the criticism is being directed,
         "Do not cause us unnecessary difficulties".  There is
        way that your Mr Evans or you yourself, Mr Rampton,
        talk yourself out of those five words.  Whatever else

.          P-34

        want to say about the rest of that quotation and what
        is made of it mind.  Do you want me to have two or
        times as much quoted from the diary?  If I did that,
        book would have been 2,000 pages long.
   Q.   Do you not see a difference between "unnecessary" and
   A.   No, not in burden, not in weight, not in thrust, not
        push, not in emphasis.
   Q.   "An energetic policy will cause some difficulties, but
        us do it in a way that does not cause difficulties
        are not necessary to the carrying out of the energetic
   A.   Well, the energetic policy, of course, we have
        people were being roused in the middle of the night by
        Gestapo and given half an hour to pack their goods and
        packed on trains to Riga and Minsk.  That is an
        policy and there is no denial of that in this book.
   Q.   Now, I want to, if I may, go back to these table
   A.   Hitler is saying, "For God's sake, do not take it too
        far.  You are causing us a problem.
   Q.   For which you will still need Professor Evans in a
        moment.  Am I right that you gave us -- I am not going
        go to the transcript; it is too time consuming -- the
        impression -- you will tell me if I am wrong --
        that these table talks were little private gatherings
        between often, not always of course, Hitler and, say,

.          P-35

        Himmler or Goebbels, the Nazi high ups, perhaps
        might be there as a particular honour, and, therefore,
        there was absolutely no bar, inhibition or restraint
        the use of direct language about what was happening,
        example, in the East?
   A.   Not completely right, Mr Rampton, because certain
        were taboo.  That I do grant.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   The Schierak ^^ family at the end of June 1943, when
        Henrietta von Schierak ^^ said to Hitler that she had
        Jews being loaded on tucks in Amsterdam and was this
        of inhumanity necessary?  There was a lot of glaring
        on and the family was banished from Hitler's house for
        rest of the war.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right, but the fact is I think you
        suggesting there was a degree of candour because
        was amongst friends?
   A.   Well, he is talking to people whom we know were
        the mass murderers, but I was asked a question, Mr
        asked, I tried to answer honestly that, in fact, they
        taboo subjects.
   MR RAMPTON:  There will have been at many of these lunches,
        I do not know whether they were really lunches or
        or whatever, a whole lot of people who were not
Himmler or
        Goebbels, but much lower down the scale, were there
   A.   People like Heinreich Heim who was Martin Bormann's

.          P-36

        private adjutant and took the initial record.  He was
   Q.   And secretaries and, what are they called, orderlies?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   People like Schmunet, Schau?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The secretary, Krista Schroeder -- people like that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So it is hardly surprising that in that company, as
        opposed to direct face, one-to-one discussion with
        or Goebbels, Hitler's language should be somewhat
   A.   That is possible, yes.
   Q.   I am going to deal with it now because I do not want to
        have to come back to it.  Do you remember, you have
        published this information (and as information certainly
        not disputed by us) there was a report, I think, in March
        1943, by Himmler's statistician, a man called ^^Korheir?
   A.   Dr Richard Korheir.

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