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   Q.   Yes.  Dr Korheir in which at I think about page, what was
        it, 20 -- I cannot remember the page number -- a long
        report, he gave a total for the number of Jews that had
        been killed up to that date, and he separated the Wartige
        from the General Government, and I think the total comes
        to about 1.4 million, does it not?
   A.   I am going to have to take issue with the way you describe
        the report.

.          P-37

   Q.   Well ----
   A.   Because this is going into the record, you said "had
   Q.   Well the word actually used was "zondebehandlung"?
   A.   Yes, but Dr Korheir, not many years ago, wrote a
letter to
        Das Spiegel which is published in which he said that
        the time he wrote the report he had no notion that is
        that word means.  He was a straightforward
        just doing a job on the basis of documents shown to
   Q.   That is exactly my point.
   A.   But you said "killed".  Can we be precise about the
use of
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Disposed of"?
   A.   Disposed of.
   MR RAMPTON:  You see, you must be patient because my
        build on each other -- at least they usually do?
   A.   But that goes into the transcript of me agreeing to
        that you are saying that it said that.
   Q.   No, but perhaps you will agree in just a moment the
        actually used was "zondebehandlung"?
   A.   "Zondebehandlung zugefuhrt".
   Q.   I do not have the document.
   A.   That is the actual phrase that he uses.
   Q.   Himmler had the report typed up in the large Fuhrer
        so that Hitler could read it; whether he did or not is
        another matter, but he did, did he not?

.          P-38

   A.   It was not typed in the large Fuhrer type.  It was
        in the small regular German office typewriter.  I have
        never seen a version in the large Fuhrer type of that
   Q.   I forget which of your books it is that I read it in,
        the assertion by you is that there was a copy prepared
        Hitler to read by Himmler?
   A.   An abridged version for Hitler.
   Q.   Just be patient, but is what you tell us in your book,
        it not?
   A.   You were speaking about the 20 page version.
   Q.   The which?
   A.   You were speaking originally about the 20 page
   Q.   You had better give me a moment to find it.  The
        is that your books, like many books, are not as well
        indexed as they might be.
   A.   Blame the index now.
   Q.   I think it is in Hitler's War 1977.  You do not
        the page reference, do you?
   A.   503 to 504.
   Q.   Well done, Mr Irving.
   A.   From the index.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, it is part 2.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  Is this point raised anywhere in
        pleadings, as a matter of interest?
   MR RAMPTON:  No, it is not.  Actually, I noticed it

.          P-39

        ago, but this arises not as an example of distortion
        Mr Irving because it is not.  This is a true story.
        arises for the reason that I will make clear in a
        which is directly relevant to the way in which we
        suggest that the table talks, the language used at the
        table talks was in some sense sanitized.  Perhaps I
        start at the second paragraph on page 503?  "Nor did
        Himmler evidently raise with Hitler the progress made
        the Jewish problem during their two hour mountain
        on March 30th".  This is 1943, is it not?
   A.   1943.
   Q.   I did say that.  "Hitler wearing a soft peek cap to
        his eyes against the alpine glare.  Earlier in 1943,
        Himmler had submitted to him", that is Hitler, is it,
I do
        not know, "a statistical report on a similar
        topic... (reading to the words) ... he had sponsored
        Hitler's written order of October 1939.  The report
        typed on a special large face typewriter and clearly
        to the Fuhrer"?
   A.   That one.  In other words, the earlier report was.
   Q.   I follow you.  That is all right.  "But did Hitler
        see the statistical report that the Reichsfuhrer had
        commissioned at the same time on the Final Solution to
        Jewish problem in Europe".  That is what the report is
        called, is it?
   A.   Yes, that is correct.

.          P-40

   Q.   "In dry tones Hitler's chief statistician, Dr Richard
        Korheir, had analysed the fate of the world's
estimated 17
        million Jews.  Europe's 10 million had dwindled by 45
        cent since 1937 owing to emigration and a high natural
        mortality rate and the enforced", and these are your
        quotes, are they, "evacuation"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That is not taken from Korheir?
   A.   He uses "evakierung" but, of course, I think we are
        that "evakierung" often has an ugly connotation.
   Q.   In 1977 you believed it had the ugliest of all
        connotations, did you not?
   A.   I repeat what I said.  It often has the ugliest,
        sinister, connotation.
   Q.   "The evacuation that had begun with the prohibition of
        emigration ... (reading to the words) ... To Himmler's
        annoyance, on reading the 16 page document on March
        he found that it stated expressis ^^ verbage", that is
        actual words explicitly, "on page 9 that of the
        Jews deported from the Eastern provinces, 1,274,166
        been subjected to 'special treatment'" -- now, that is
        zondebehandlung, is it not ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- "at camps in the General Government and a further
        145,301 similarly dealt with in the Warthegau.
        knew too well that the Fuhrer had in November 1941

.          P-41

        that the Jews", general, "were", italics, "not to be
        liquidated.  On April 1st he had the report edited
        submission to the Fuhrer' and a few days later, lest
        had not made himself plain, instructed that in version
        the Fuhrer he 'did not want there to be any mention of
        special treatment of Jews' whatever".
                  According to the new text the Jews would
        been 'channelled through' the camps to Russia
        not 'subjected to special treatment' at the camps.  As
        wrote on April 9th, the report would serve
        for 'camouflage purposes' in later years.  Camouflage
        whom, Mr Irving?
   A.   It does not say but, of course, this passage has
        the same in all versions of my book.  I think it is an
        eminently satisfactory description of the kind of
        that were going on at the highest level.  People were
        withholding things from people.
   Q.   I am not going to reengage on the argument about the
        so-called Fuhrer order of 30th November 1941.  We have
        been down that road.
   A.   That passage was removed from the subsequent editions.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We know all about that.  What is the
        relevance to table talk?
   MR RAMPTON:  We have had all that.  The relevance of this
        the words unterbehandlung.  You see, I suggest to you,
        Mr Irving, that the reason why that was taken out had

.          P-42

        nothing whatever to do with the Fuhrer learning of
        something which he did not ought to know, because the
        is, if the word unterbehandlung had been in there, he
        would have known exactly what was being talked about,
        would he not?
   A.   I do not think so.  The word unterbehandlung was a
        common German word, frequently used by even Himmler in
        totally different ----
   Q.   Then why did Himmler have it edited?
   A.   He wanted the report cut down from 16 pages to 9 pages
        which is one thing that is quite plain, but he also
        the explicitness, and I have made this quite plain in
        this, that ugly things are happening in the East, and
        does not want Hitler being told, he does not want his
        being rubbed in it.  Let us put it like that.
   Q.   I do not know what the German says but, "subjected to
        special treatment" is a good deal shorter than
        through to camps in Russia".
   A.   If you subject people to special treatment at camps,
        this has a very sinister connotation indeed.
        through those camps to the east" has a less sinister
        connotation.  My primitive reading of this document,
        maybe you will educate the court differently, is that
        is being withheld from Hitler.  Himmler is saying to
        statistician, "Write a different version for
submission to
        Fuhrer".  These words do not occur.

.          P-43

   Q.   No, Mr Irving.
   A.   You keep interrupting me.
   Q.   No, Mr Irving, I do not accept that.  What Himmler has
        done is precisely what he said he did.  He has
        it so that, when Hitler reads it, he is not going to
        through the roof and say, you cannot have a document
        talking about zonderbehandlung.  We all know what that
   A.   Unless you are going to lead evidence which actually
        that out, I do not think there is any sustainability
   Q.   I am offering you another perfectly natural ----
   A.   I think it is a perverse interpretation.  If Himmler
        saying this is an excellent document for camouflage
        purposes, and says "I want a short version for
        to the Fuhrer which does not mention these sinister
        words", I think that my interpretation is the most
        interpretation, and in fact I think it bears out
        everything I have said all along, that there is monkey
        work going on along here, and either it is the Richard
        Nixon complex, as I call it, where Hitler may
        have said, "Do what you want, Mr Himmler, but do not
        me be told", which I am perfectly prepared to accept
        have happened.
   Q.   I suggest to you that precisely the same sort of
        took place at the table talks.  In other words,

.          P-44

        language, slightly more delicate language was used
        would have been used between, say Hitler and Himmler
        discussing these matters.
   A.   Mr Rampton, I have had the advantage -- you are
        with the table talks, you are also familiar with the
        German version which has more recently been published.
        The table talk was written by Martin Bormann's
        Heinreich Heim.  Heinrich Heim was a person that
        I interviewed at great depth personally while he was
        alive.  He was a very educated, cultivated man, an art
        collector, oddly enough, in private life.  I
        him in great deal as to how much about the final
        was discussed.  You are not listening to what I say so
        there is no point in my continuing.
   A.   Perhaps Mr Rampton is just pretending he is not
        listening.  I questioned Mr Heim and the other
        in great detail as to how much was discussed in these
        of circles, and there was no discussion whatsoever of
        kind of mass extermination of the Jews at Hitler's
        or in private or else where at Hitler's headquarters,
        which is what I find very disturbing because I
        myself, possibly not the court but I satisfied myself,
        that I had won these people's confidence.
   Q.   Can you turn to page 426 of the Professor Evans report

.          P-45

   A.   We are moving on to a new topic now, are we?
   Q.   No.  We are still on table talk.  Henry -- was he
        Henry -- was one of those two people who wrote down
        Hitler said at these table talks, was he not?
   A.   Not strictly accurate.
   Q.   You tell me, then.
   A.   The primary scribe was Mr Heim, the gentleman I have
        mentioned.  When he was relieved by Henry Picker,
        Picker found in the desk a large number of Heim's
        transcripts, and he published them under his own name
        the third person.  So he was not always the person who
        himself present in the case of Mr Picker.
   Q.   But Mr Picker would have been there on a number of
        occasions, would he?
   A.   Yes, particularly from 1942 onwards.

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