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Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the significance of that last
        sentence you have just read out, Mr Rampton?  It makes no
        sense to me at all.
   MR RAMPTON:  What it means is that Hitler already knew that it
        had happened in Lithuania.
   A.   What had happened?
   Q.   The Jews had been removed from Lithuania?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why is that significant?
   MR RAMPTON:  Because of what happened next and, of course, with
        what had happened before.
   A.   So you accuse me of a sin of omission yet again, in other
        words, the book should have been 2,000 pages long instead of 1,000.
   Q.   If his plan was to transport everybody to Madagascar after
        the war, why should he think it is significant that
        Lithuania was now Jew free?
   A.   I do not know.  We do not know what the preceding
        sentences say, and I hesitate to express opinion there. It
        looks like the corollary of something that he said in the
        previous sentence which Professor Evans has not vouchsafed
        to us.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is not the real point on this it was obvious,
        or should have been obvious -- this is Professor Evans to
        Mr Irving -- that this was a classic example of camouflage

.          P-65

        in Federation
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, absolutely.
   A.   He could well argue that, but I would argue on the
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That, as I understand it, is the way the case
        is put on this particular table talk.
   A.   Your Lordship will certainly attach whatever weight you
        wish to to that, but the evidence is that Adolf Hitler,
        certainly since June 1938, had adumbrated the Madagascar
        plan, and he repeatedly referred to it in a rather wistful
        kind of way.  He discussed it with the German Navy.  The
        German Admiralty actually became involved in a detailed
        plan, so did the German Foreign Office, so did various
        subordinate departments.  All I am saying in this sentence
        is that as late as July 1942 in this rather madcap way he
        is still talking of Madagascar.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but it is a question of whether you take him
        seriously or not, is it not?  That is what matters, from
        history's point of view.
   A.   Should I have suppressed this sentence?  Should I
        have dropped it on the floor, the same way as your
        historians have dropped the other documents on the floor
        that do not fit into their arguments?
   Q.   Would you please turn over the page in Professor Evans'
        report to page 423, you will see why it is that I suggest
        that when Hitler talks of Madagascar in July 1942 at his

.          P-66

        table talk it is mere fanciful waffle.  Look at
        3 in Richard Evans's report, please?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Not just waffle, euphemism.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, euphemism, yes.  "By early 1942, it had
        been made official that Hitler was no longer aiming at
        driving Jews out of Europe to Africa.  The Madagascar
        plan, which had already been postponed indefinitely in
        Autumn of 1940, was now officially shelved.  It is
        misleading to speculate, as Irving does, that Hitler
        July 1942 'might still be dreaming of Madagascar'.  On
        10th February 1942 the Foreign Office official who had
        first proposed the plan for deporting the Jews to
        Madagascar in 1940 wrote that:
                  'Gruppenfuhrer Heydrich has been charged by
        Fuhrer with carrying out the solution of the Jewish
        question in Europe.  In the meantime, the war against
        Soviet Union has opened up the possibility of placing
        other territories at our disposal for the Final
        Accordingly, the Fuhrer has decided that the Jews
        be pushed off not to Madagascar but to the East.
        Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen
        the final solution any more"?
   A.   Are you implying that Heydrich was the one who called
        shots and not Hitler?
   Q.   This appears to be a report at secondhand, admittedly
   A.   I am afraid this point rather operates against

.          P-67

        You are implying that Heydrich is the one who made the
        decisions and not Hitler who is talking here still
        Madagascar.  I am perfectly ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, because it goes on to say that the
        has made the decision that it should not be
   MR RAMPTON:  The Fuhrer has decided.
   A.   But here, quite clearly, the Fuhrer is still talking
        Madagascar in the way that Heads of State do.
   Q.   Yes, it is camouflage; it no longer means anything?
   A.   May I remind you, why the Madagascar plan was dropped
        because Germany was not in a position to ship the
        to get the shipping and to transport these emigres
        overseas any more without the ships being torpedoed.
        is talking about after the war it would be nice if we
        could resume the Madagascar plan.
   Q.   Maybe, so we can lay our hands on the remaining 4
        Jews, perhaps?
   A.   That is not exactly what he says, Mr Rampton.  I have
        adhered very closely to what is in the sources.  It
        have been irresponsible of me to have ignored this
        in the way that the historians have ignored the other
        documents that do not fit in with their schemes.
                  I am writing a biography of Adolf Hitler,
        this is very clearly a germane document to include,
but to
        give it no more weight than I assigned to it.
   Q.   So is the Foreign Office document, is it not?

.          P-68

   A.   I have mentioned that at the appropriate place in this
        very volume too.
   Q.   Well, the appropriate place, do you say that place --
        you do, I am wrong?
   A.   I shall certainly look it out overnight and bring it
        before the court so we do not have to waste more time.
   Q.   But, of course, Hitler had, in fact, already ordered
        Madagascar to be taken off the menu back in February,
        this cannot be taken at face value.  Did you write
   A.   Mr Rampton, these are your suppositions for which you
        no evidence.  I can only work on the evidence which is
        the documents.  The table talk, as I have always said,
        documents of a very high category of authenticity and
   Q.   Is that Foreign Office document of, is it, 10th
        is that an authentic document, do you think?
   A.   Indeed, yes, but you will accept the planning
        swings and changes as the climate of the war changes,
        the advance proceeds on the Eastern Front or as one
        set backs, then one adapts one's plans.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is page 423, if you want to cross-
   A.   I am indebted to your Lordship, yes.  This very
        was quoted by me in full on page 423, the relevant
        which is what, no doubt, brought it to Professor
        attention in the first place.

.          P-69

   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, may I say what I propose to do next?
   MR RAMPTON:  That ends that little exercise with the table
        talks and very little it was, I took too long.  It
ends on
        24th July.  I now propose to lay out as quickly as I
        (but it is necessary to look at some original German
        documents) what was going on, so far as anybody knows
        the German documents, from 28th or earlier about this
        time, end of July 1942, and then I make no secret of
        I am going to then end up with Himmler's note of 22nd
        September 1942.  That is not quite my terminus.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which is that?
   A.   We have not had that yet.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is the next topic, but it does require
        background.  It may be best to lay the ground by
        to what Mr Irving wrote about it in his book.
   A.   Mr Rampton, you say you are going to be producing to
        court German documents.  Will you make it plain on
        occasion whether they were documents that were before
        at the time I wrote the books or not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a fair point.
   MR RAMPTON:  I may not know the answer to that -- it is a
        point, but it is not the whole of the point by any
        because you have said something about the Himmler log
        entry of 22nd September 1942, and what I want to do is
        see whether you adhere to what you there said.  It is

.          P-70

        evidence of system, of course, and scale.  So it does
        several jobs at the same time.  Can we look, please,
        of all, at page 467 of Hitler's War 1991?
   A.   The closing words of the paragraph -- of the chapter?
   Q.   Yes, they are.  It is right to point out that this
        page which ends at a half page on page 467 starts with
        reference to Himmler on page 466.  Perhaps your
        might just read that?  I have some questions about
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  From where?
   MR RAMPTON:  From "Himmler kept his own counsels".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just read it?  I have read it
        but I have to remind myself.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Now, Mr Irving, if you would just look at that
        a moment, just 467 for the moment?  At the end of the
        paragraph you write:  "Himmler meanwhile continued to
        the wool over Hitler's eyes.  On September 17th he
        jotted in his notes for that day's Fuhrer conference:
                  '(1) Jewish immigration; how is it to be
        in future?  (2) Settlement of Lublin', and noted next
        these points 'Conditions in general government and
        Globas'" which is Globocnik's nickname.  Yet, at the
        of the page, at the end of the first little paragraph
        write this:  "The Fuhrer himself", and this is a

.          P-71

        translation of Himmler's letter to Berger of that
        date, "The Fuhrer himself has entrusted me with the
        execution of this arduous order and nobody can deprive
        of this responsibility."
   A.   You did not read out the first part which is to say
        the order was.
   Q.   I am so sorry.  The task is making the occupied
        territories ----
   A.   The full text is:  "The occupied Eastern territories
        to be liberated of Jews.  The Fuhrer himself has
        me with the execution of this arduous order.  Nobody
        deprive me of this responsibility."
   Q.   I am just getting out the original which is "Die
        osgebete werden Judenfrage", "The occupied East
        territories will be Jew-free", correct?
   A.   Well...
   Q.   It must be?
   A.   That is what I would refer to as a wooden translation,
   Q.   Oh, yes.  I do not make any apology for it being
   A.   It is me being defensive.
   Q.   "Die durchfuhrung dieses sehr schweren gefalls" ---
        carrying out of this very hard order -- "hat der
        auf mein schuntten gelecht" -- has the Fuhrer placed
on my
        shoulders, is that right?
   A.   Yes, yes.

.          P-72

   Q.   So Himmler has been given the very hard, sehr schwer,
        of clearing the Eastern territories, occupied Eastern
        territories, of all the Jews, has he not?
   A.   Rendering the Eastern territories free of the Jews,
   Q.   Yes.  So about what was it, if Himmler is telling the
        truth about that, that Himmler on, in fact, I think
        dates are 22nd and not 17th, but it matters not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You accept that, do you not, Mr Irving?
   A.   That I do not know, but it is not important.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not important, I agree.
   MR RAMPTON:  On 22nd September, about what was it that
        was pulling the wool over Hitler's eyes?
   A.   At this time a killing operation had begun, that the
        killings were going on.
   Q.   Surely not.  By what means?
   A.   I do not know.  It is not important for the purposes
        that answer.

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