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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day006.11

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day006.11
Last-Modified: 2000/08/02

   Q.   I appreciate that, but what do you assess him as having
        had in mind?
   A.   But whatever means to convey them from life to death.  He
        is certainly not being explicit here, but of course, my
        Lord, it will not surprise you that I rely on the earlier
        part of that paragraph where he says, "I had to take the
        serious decision."  I think this is a very powerful point
        in my favour.  He does not say:  "The Fuhrer took the
        decision", where he very easily could have in these
        circles.  He is speaking, after all, to the top Nazi
   MR RAMPTON:  Not on this occasion explicitly.
   A.   He is being very explicit indeed.  "I had to take this
   Q.   If Hitler or -- no, it does not say that.
   A.   "I decided".
   Q.   "I decided to find a very clear solution to this
   A.   "I have taken the decision to find a clear solution".
   Q.   If Hitler already knew about it ----
   A.   You cannot climb out of that one, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   I can, I am just about to.  Do not worry, I am going

.          P-94

        show you another document which I know you are
        with, so I do not know why you say what you say.  I
        find out later perhaps.
   A.   There is no need to get rattled about it, but this is
        cardinal document, Mr Rampton.  Here is Himmler
        "I took the decision".
   Q.   Mr Irving, can I ask you to calm down a little and
        this question.  If Hitler already knew about it, the
        injunction to the Gau and Reichs leaders to not speak
        about it would not matter, would it, I mean so far as
        going upwards is concerned?  What they are not
supposed to
        do is to talk about it lower down.
   A.   He does not actually say that.  He just says "keep
   Q.   I know, but if Hitler already knew about it and had
        actually given Himmler the order to do it, in general
        terms, the authority to do it, then he is not talking
        about not telling Hitler, is he?
   A.   I am not prepared to extrapolate from what it is in
        document.  I am just saying what the document tells
        since he says:  "We are doing this but keep quiet
   Q.   Let us look at something a little bit more explicit,
   A.   But if you remember what I clearly allow is that from
        point on Adolf Hitler no excuse not to know because
        very next day these same gentlemen went to him and he

.          P-95

        spoke to them.
   Q.   My googolies are I think a little bit more subtle than
        sometimes think, Mr Irving.  Can you turn on just for
        reference in this bundle to the next document which is
        after page 49 of Himmler's Posen speech.  My Lord, it
        footnote 187.
   A.   My Lord, would be it be helpful if I pointed out that
        after making this speech Himmler had everybody who was
        present sign a list to agree that they had hear the
        speech, or if they had not heard it to agree that they
        read it subsequently.  All the SS Generals who were
        present were required -- I have never seen that on any
        Himmler's other speeches.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What do you say is the significance of
   A.   It is very interesting to speculate, my Lord.  I think
        was making them into accomplices in his own mind.  He
        saying: "There you are, now I have told you.  Now we
        all in it together."  It is a very interesting
        document.  I have never seen that on any of Himmler's
        other speeches, that he listed all SS Generals present
        made them sign that they had been present and heard
        speech or if they not been present that they had read
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, Heinrich Himmler kept copies of
        speeches, did he not?
   A.   In various versions.  There was the original raw

.          P-96

        transcript and then a corrected transcript.
   Q.   I know, I happen to have for the 5th May which we are
        coming to in a minute, I happen to have both versions.
   A.   Yes.  There are also his handwritten notes on the
basis of
        which he spoke.
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving, your knowledge is extensive.  I want
        know why you think it is that Himmler kept copies of
   A.   I keep copies of me speeches.
   Q.   But you do not talk about having given the order for
        extermination of millions of Jews, do you, in your
   A.   I have not exterminated millions of Jews, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   Mr Irving, maybe it is late in the morning or
        Heinrich Himmler's speech is not just this one.  We
        the one earlier, the 4th October at Posen.  We have
        one here.  We have two more in May 1944, which are
        explicit, at any rate about his role in the
        of the whole Jewish race?
   A.   Letting them vanish from the face of the earth,
   Q.   Yes, by killing them?
   A.   Brutally explicit, yes.  As he says, by murdering, and
        just the men but the women and children too.
   Q.   Yes, I know that.  Why would he keep those admissions
        guilt, particularly in 1943 and 1944 by which time he

.          P-97

        have known that the German world was probably going to
        come to an end?
   A.   Why would he have kept it to himself?
   Q.   Yes.  Why did he commit these things to writing and
        keep them after he had uttered them to his Generals or
        Reichsleiters or whatever they are?
   A.   I think the problem is we are so often on exactly the
        side, Mr Rampton.  Have I not frequently allowed in
all my
        books that from this point on Hitler had no reason not
   Q.   Hitler did know, come on.
   A.   On precisely this point I have said Hitler had no
        justification for pleading ignorance, because
        else immediately around him had been informed, but
        you have to set this kind of speech in the context.
        is 5th October, 4th and 6th October 1943 rather, at
        height of the bombing campaign.  There is a reason why
        Himmler is making a speech like this to the
disgruntled SS
        Generals.  Morale is at a low ebb and he is saying,
        we are hitting back, we're doing this to them".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am really puzzled.  Can I explain why,
        Mr Irving.  When Mr Rampton was putting that passage
        the October 1943 speech, 4th October 1943 speech, you
        at pains to point out that Himmler was saying that it
        he who would have taken the decision, but if you are
        accepting, as you have throughout, that by October

.          P-98

        Hitler knew about the extermination policy ----
   A.   I say "from this point on", my Lord, because on the
        following day ----
   Q.   But what is the significance of emphasising that it
        Himmler's decision if you accept Hitler was in on it?
   A.   Because Himmler is accepting the responsibility for
        job which has now been completed.  Himmler is kind of
        reporting ----
   Q.   I see, ex post facto.
   A.   Yes, saying, "We've done it all, the job has been
        I had to take the decision, it was a difficult job for
        but we done it, and I am proud of you, my SS men, for
        having carried out such a difficult task."
   Q.   So the knowledge you say Hitler had from October 1943
        not include knowledge of what had been going on in
        is that what you are saying?
   A.   I am saying it is quite likely that he will have
        ex post facto have learned about all these things,
        particularly the Gauleiters who went to see him the
        day and the SS Generals who went to see him.  The same
        audience went effectively to see Hitler where he
        them, and it would be stretching the bounds of
        too far to say that not one of them went up to Hitler,
        of the old veterans, and said, "Mein Fuhrer, we heard
        something yesterday which rather disturbed me", but I
        not think it did disturb them.  I think they rather

.          P-99

        it.  The eyewitness accounts we have of one of these
        speeches says that there were roars of applause.
   MR RAMPTON:  It was ----
   A.   The Germans were like that.
   Q.   If you are right, it is something of which Himmler was
        very proud, is it not?
   A.   He was proud of his men for having carried out those
        extremely distasteful tasks.
   Q.   But he was pleased, if your interpretation is right,
        I am going to suggest it is not, but he was pleased to
        announce to this august gathering that he personally
        made the decision to carry out this difficult task?
   A.   Would it not have been wonderful for him if he had
        "The Fuhrer gave us this task and look how well we
        performed his duties for him.
   Q.   Of course he did.
   A.   The great temptation would have been there, but he
        not say this.
   Q.   He does not?
   A.   He says specifically:  "I was the one who took the
   Q.   So that being so you would not expect that in May 1944
        would reveal that he done what he did in consequence
of an
        order, and the only person of course who could have
        an order is Hitler?
   A.   Mr Rampton, shall we get to that document when we get

.          P-100

        it and look at the precise wording?
   Q.   Very well.  Let us doing that now.  I have it open.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is page 187.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 187.
   A.   There are of course about ten such speeches and you
        just picked out two of them.  In none of the others
        he make any suggestion that there is a Fuhrer order.
        it is not just one speech where there is no reference.
        is many speeches.
   Q.   He makes another such reference later the same month,
        about three weeks later.  We will come to that
        after the adjournment.
   A.   Are we also going to look at Adolf Hitler's speech of
        think it was June 26th 1944?
   Q.   Yes, indeed I certainly am.  Let us start with 5th May
        1944.  On page 18, tell me who this speech is made to,
        you will?
   A.   I think it is the military leader, the leadership, the
        brass, shall we say.
   Q.   The top brass.
   A.   I know the names of a number of people who were
        General Stumpf was Air Force; General Reinicke was
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Generals of the Wehrmacht.
   MR RAMPTON:  These are not SS creatures.  These are proper
        soldiers; these are Generals of the Wehrmacht, are

.          P-101

   A.   Yes, the top brass of the German armed forces.
   Q.   On page 28 it has been altered.  One can see how these
        pages evolve sometimes.  Page 28.  My Lord, it looks
        an 18, so one has to look at page 27 at the top, page
5 of
        the file.
   A.   This is one of the most interesting pages I have ever
        looked at.
   Q.   You can tell us everything you know about this page in
        just a moment when I have referred you to the relevant
        passage, which I think begins in the middle of the
        The Jewish question has been solved within Germany
        and in general within the countries occupied by
        Is that roughly right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I am going to read on in the English from Dr
                  "It was solved in an uncompromising fashion
        accordance with the life and death struggle of our
        in which the existence of our blood is at stake." Yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then elipse, if you do not mind.  Have you got that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "You can understand how difficult it was for me"?
   A.   "You can feel with me how difficult it was" yes.
   Q.   "To carry out this soldatischen befehl".  What is

.          P-102

   A.   Soldierly order or military order.
   Q.   "And which I carried out and went through with a sense
        obedience", which word is that?  Translate the last
        of the sentence for me?
   A.   "Which I obeyed and carried out from obedience and
from a
        sense of complete conviction".
   Q.   Obedience to whom, Mr Irving, Hitler or his own sense
        what was necessary for the sake of the thousand year
   A.   I think the sense of what is coming out of that
        is a sense of duty.
   Q.   So it is the sense of duty, is it, that gives him the
        soldatischen befehl?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   A very odd choice of words, is it not, this soldierly
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The only person who can give Mr Himmler a soldierly
        is Mr Hitler?
   A.   Absolutely right.

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