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   MR IRVING:  Wannsee on January 20th 1942 -- W-A-N-N-S-E-E
         -- and the subsequent conference, which was held at the
        headquarters of Heydrich on March 6th 1942.  I wanted to
        find out what the participants said, what they recalled
        immediately afterwards, after the war.  They were
        interrogated in detail by the Americans.  We have the
        verbatim transcripts in German and English.  I did not
        copy the transcripts, but I typed extracts on the filing
        cards which you will see on pages 13 and 14, my Lord, the
        relevant parts.  I have translated them on page 12 which
        I think is all we need to look at today.
                  Cabinet counseller, Dr Hans Ficher of the Reich
        Chancellery (Lammers department) stated that from the
        invitation it was evident that evacuation or sterilisation
        were on the agenda."  I skip on to the next
        sentence: "Lammers took this minute to the Fuhrer and

.          P-8

        returned with a memorandum.  The discussion of the whole
        affair is to be postponed until after the end of the
        war".  That must have been in March 1942.  That is the
        opinion of Bohle.  "To our horror", and I rely on this
        sentence, my Lord, "we learned that that then continued
        behind the scenes.  We learned that that then continued
        behind the scenes".
                  Although Hitler had given this order, leave
        everything until the end of the war, to our horror, they
        learned that it went on behind the scenes, rather like the
        Bruns business, your Lordship will remember.  The order
        comes down from Hitler's headquarters.
                  What we are looking for, I would submit, is any
        indication that I have been perverse in putting on this
        kind of document the meaning that I did in my various
        writings and utterances.  If I continue now to the next
        statement by Mr Gottfried Bohle, who is also at the Reichs
        Chancellory Department, he testified that he had been
        interrogated about this on more than one occasion.  The
        conference, he recalled, was at the headquarters of
        Heydrich's department, the RSHA.  Eichmann opened, and
        I am relying on this purely to show that it was not just a
        discussion about the mixed race, my Lord.  It was a
        discussion about the Jews as a whole.
                  Eichmann opened with the need for a quick
        solution of the Jewish Question.  Bohle told his wife

.          P-9

        afterwards that they had talked of Jews being supplied
        like cattle.  One man had objected, one cannot proceed
        against Jews who had behaved correctly, Eichmann's No.  2,
        that was SS van Fuhrer Gunter, said "that comes under our
        police judgment".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not at the moment see what bearing that
        has on the issue we are concerned with.
   MR IRVING:  It is an indication where the kind of decisions are
        being taken, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see.  Anyway Bohle again?
   MR IRVING:  Bohle in another interrogation said, and I draw
        attention only to the second two sentences, Hitler wanted
        postponement until after the war. "Whether the security
        police knew about the different orders from Hitler,
        I cannot say."  In other words, different to what they
        were doing.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, your Lordship may attach no significance
        whatsoever to these documents.  I am a historian looking
        at these documents.  I submit that it is perfectly proper
        for me to pay attention to them, and it is not perverse
        for me to attach the significance to them that I did and
        the meanings that I did.
   MR IRVING:  That is all that I have to submit on this
        Schlegelberger memorandum, my Lord.

.          P-10

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You did that very, if I may say so,
        effectively and briefly.
   MR IRVING:  Your Lordship will have apprehended that I
        importance to the Schlegelberger memorandum.  I have
        quoted it frequently, I have illustrated it in my
        and I wish to make sure that it stayed upright without
        being sunk.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It would not be exaggerating to say that
        is something of a linchpin for your thesis about the
        extent to which Hitler knew about what was going on.
   MR IRVING:  One of the chain of document to which we
        occasionally refer, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is Schlegelberger.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, do you want to add anything?
   MR RAMPTON:  I have some questions remaining about
        Schlegelberger, particularly in the light of these
   MR IRVING:  Do you wish me to go into the box?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have to keep an eye on the time.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship need not fear; we have enough
        material for today.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not worrying about having enough.
        Mr Irving, perhaps you would go back into the box?
                    < MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.
                  < Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON QC,
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, there is one document which you

.          P-11

        not included in that little clip, is there not?
   A.   Mr Rampton, I spent a large part of the night in
        for my Schlegelberger file, but the documents came
        from solicitors for the Defendants in such disarray
        it was in vain.  I had to reconstruct it from other
   Q.   Curiously enough, I did the same exercise myself last
        night, and the document that I have included in my
        clip which I will hand in----  (Document not provided)
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where are we going to put these?
   MR RAMPTON:  For the moment they can go together.  Perhaps
        can both go in whatever the J number is.
   MR RAMPTON:  Some of them may in due course be filed away
        the core file.
   A.   May I express incidentally my amazement that this
        of documents did not turn up in the bundles that were
        to the court?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know.  I understand the point.  Let us
   MR RAMPTON:  There is a document, Mr Irving, that you did
        include -- I am not saying it is deliberate, at least
        at the moment -- in the little clip and that is the
        actual minute of the meeting on 6th March 1942, is it
   A.   That is correct.  The reason for that being that it
        not come from that Ministry of Justice file.  This

.          P-12

        from, as the serial numbers at the foot of it clearly
        show, the Foreign Ministry files.
   Q.   It did not, but it is one of the footnotes to your
        Goebbels book, is it not?
   A.   I am sorry, the footnote is referred to in the
        book?  It is indeed, yes.
   Q.   It is footnote 36 to page 388, and one knows it is the
        same document for two reasons:  First because the
        personnel mentioned at as being at the meeting include
        Karssonsen and Schmidtburg?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And because the film roll number at the bottom right
        corner of the page that you have got there is the one
        which you give in your footnote.  So we are looking
now at
        the right document, are we?  It is 371962?
   A.   Yes.  Can you show me again the page reference in the
   Q.   Yes I have copied it for convenience.  It is page 388,
        it is note 36 in the upper half of the page, the big
        paragraph before the word Eichmann. My Lord, I have
        for your Lordship note 36 which is on page 647, where
        Mr Irving said -- perhaps I will read the Goebbels
        first so that it will become a little clearer what it
        that I am driving at.  I will start if I may on 388.
        the following day" -- that is he and one can see from
        previous page that that is Goebbels and the following

.          P-13

        is 6th March -- "Goebbels took note of an extensive
        report prepared by Heydrich's office, probably on the
        Wannsee conference.  There were still eleven million
        in Europe, he dictated, summarizing the document. 'For
        time being they are to be concentrated in the east
        Later;  possibly an island like Madagascar can be
        to them after the war.' 'Undoubtedly there will be a
        multitude of personal tragedies,' he added airily,'But
        this is unavoidable.  The situation now is ripe for a
        final settlement of the Jewish question.'  In a
        letter Heydrich invited Goebbels to a second
        on March 6.  Goebbels sent two of his junior staff."
                  Then one goes to note 36, and one sees that
        says they, that is the two junior members of staff,
        Karssonsen and Schmidtburg of its Eastern territory
        subsection.  Minutes of conference, March 6th 1942, on
        Final Solution of Jewish problem.  Then your Lordship
        inside the bracket right at the end is the same film
        number, whatever it is, reference number 371962.
   A.  "Eichmann talked crudely at this meeting"-- that is the
        meeting of 6th March attended by Karssonsen and
        Schmidtburg - "of 'forwarding' the Jews to the east,
        so many head of cattle.  The ministry of justice
        the report on this new discussion like a hot potato."
        That is note 38.  That is the letter of 12th March,

.          P-14

        your Lordship has, to Herr Lammers in the Reichkanzlei
        "The Reich Chancellery referred it all to Hitler."
        That is an is interrogation of Hans Ficher, that
        footnote.  I ask you to note the words "it all",
        Mr Irving. "Hitler wearily told Hans Lammers that he
        wanted the solution of the Jewish problem postponed
        after the war was over - a ruling that remarkably few
        historians now seem disposed to quote."
                  That suggests, does it not, to the reader,
        Mr Irving, that the conference on 6th March was about
        overall solution of the Jewish question?
   A.   The final solution of the Jewish question is the title
        given on the minutes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But that was not the question.  The
        is you are conveying to the readers there that it is
        final solution which is postponed.
   MR RAMPTON:  That was what that conference discussed, is
        you are telling the reader.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now would you please look at the minute of the
        the one you footnoted?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Please read it yourself.  Tell me when you have
        and I will ask you a question.
   A.   I think I am familiar enough with the document.  My
        Lord, can I mention the fact that we have one of my

.          P-15

        witnesses present.  Is he allowed to be in court?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  It is only in criminal trials that
        generally speaking you do not.
   A.   Yes.  I think I am sufficiently familiar with the
        of this memorandum to answer questions.
   MR RAMPTON:  The only topics that were discussed at that
        meeting on 6th March 1942 are the fate of the
        that is to say the children of mixed marriages, and
        parents, the mischehen.  There are two items, there
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The first is the mischlinge on page 478 at the bottom?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And the second, on page 483 at the bottom, is the
        mischehen, that is to say mixed marriages?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   There is not a word in that memorandum of that
        about the solution in general, apart from the heading
        which was a general heading always used for these
        documents.  Am I right?
   A.   You can say that about this document, yes.
   Q.   Then, if you will, turn to the next page in my little
   A.   371?
   Q.   Yes. I will use yours because you have translated it
        I have not.

.          P-16

   A.   This refers clearly to the conference concerning the
        and the mixed races.
   Q.   I will just find your English first.  I am going to
        it again.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not, because we have been through it
   MR RAMPTON: "My personal assistant has just briefed me on
        result of the session on March 6th, meeting might be a
        better word, on the treatment of Jews and mixed
        That personal assistant was a man called Masfelder,
was it
   A.   That I do not know.
   Q.   If you look at the protocol, you can see Masfelder,
        sorry.  The front sheet of the protocol, which is one
        your own documents.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We can short circuit this.  Mr Irving,
        must be a reference to the conference of which we have
        just seen the record, is it not?
   A.   Yes indeed.
   MR RAMPTON:  That conference had nothing whatever to do
        what was to happen to the Jews overall.  It was under
        general heading, but it was specifically about
        and mischehen, was it not?
   A.   The minutes of the conference record only those parts
        dealing with the mischehen, the mixed marriages.
   Q.   So, in effect, you have totally distorted what was

.          P-17

        discussed at that meeting.  You have totally distorted
        therefore the reason why Schlegelberger wrote to
        and therefore, if the Schlegelberger has a place in
        chronology, you have distorted the effect of that,
        have you not?
   A.   This omission that you repeatedly make, and I beg to
        differ on that because of course I am looking at the
        documents in the file and also looking at the
        interrogations of the people who were at the meeting.
   Q.   Let us look at the interrogations, shall we?
   A.   If you remember, the business about Jews being
        like cattle and so on.  Quite clearly that is not in
        minutes either.  There is a lot of stuff that happened
        that conference which is not recorded in the minutes.
        I think it is a mistake to adhere slavishly to the
        memoranda taken by these gentlemen, the minutes, which
        you yourself have said frequently were written for
        camouflage purposes.
   Q.   It is page 12 my Lord.  Let us look at your extract from
        the postwar interrogation, shall we?
   A.   Yes.

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