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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.17

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.17
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think this is a debate that may need to
        take place at some stage, but I think it is not productive
        at this stage.
   A.   I am astonished to hear Mr Rampton say that it is not
        about ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I know what he means and I know your
        response to it, but let us postpone this.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, we are dealing here, as you yourself
        said this morning, you opened with some reference to a
        state of a man's mind taken from a legal case, what we are
        dealing here with, Mr Irving, is your state of mind at the

.          P-144

        time when you made these statements?
   A.   In August.
   Q.   And subsequently.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Not about whether you were right or wrong, as a matter of
        objective fact.  Do you understand?
   A.   But it is about both matters together taken in tandem.
   Q.   No, no, we are not.  In this part of the cross-
        we are simply dealing with what you said, why you said
        and what basis you had for saying it -- you had.
   A.   So the allegation is David Irving was right, but how
        tasteless the way he put it?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us press on.  For what it is worth,
        I think the way Mr Rampton puts it just now is
        right, but please let us not prolong the debate.
   MR RAMPTON:  Keep in the front of your mind what the Judge
        said, lest you go down some other routes or you may
get a
        ticking off from the bench, Mr Irving?
   A.   That is a risk when one is under cross-examination for
        several days.
   MR RAMPTON:  Please turn to page 12, Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I will start at 549.  I am not at all sure what you
        talking about but I do not think it matters.  Towards
        top of the page: "I do not like the historian writers

.          P-145

        have been going around for last the 20 years saying
        I do not like them because they have not been using
        scientific methods".  You know their names because
        frequently appear in the newspapers under attack and
        have done our cause quite a lot harm I think."
                  Can I pause there?  What do you mean by the
        words "our cause"?  Whose cause?
   A.   Do you mind if I read these few lines again to try to
        out what I am talking about?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Please do.
   MR RAMPTON:  And back if you want as well for the content.
   A.   It is a problem. You leap forward ten pages and then
        who are we talking about?  I do not know.  I do not
        who we are talking about there.
   Q.   These people, whoever they are, have been blundering
        in the room, saying things or doing things you do not
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You say:"These people have done our cause quite a lot
        harm".  Whose cause, Mr Irving?
   A.   I do not know.  I do not know who I am talking about.
   Q.   You are talking about the cause of like minded
        anti-Semitic Holocaust deniers, are you not?
   A.   I do not think there is the slight hint of that in
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Who else's cause would you be talking of?

.          P-146

   A.   Obviously I am going to have to read the previous page
        see who we are talking about then.  (Pause for
        One interpretation is that it is the defence team of
        Mr Zundel, who was at that time under appeal, or I
        the case was ongoing against him.  Or historians like
        myself.  To try and put in words like anti-Semitic and
        things like that I think is not very helpful.
   Q.   You may as well have them now, Mr Irving.  You will
get at
        the end anyway.
   A.   Are you going to imply that I am anti-Semitic, are
you, or
        my friends are anti-Semitic?
   Q.   I have said it in opening and I will say it again now
        it pleases you so that you will have it in mind ----
   A.   So the newspapers will have it tomorrow, yes.
   Q.   You may or may not do, but you will certainly get it
        the end of case when we have looked at all the
        Our case is that you consort with people who are
        anti-Semitic, and you do it quite frequently, not all
   A.   So did Winston Churchill.  Most of his Cabinet
        were anti-Semitic but does it make Winston Churchill
   Q.   Two blacks do not make a white?
   A.   I am not calling Mr Winston Churchill black.  I am
        giving that as an example that that is not so far very
        good evidence.

.          P-147

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton was putting his case to you.
        Perhaps wait until you have the whole of it and then
   MR RAMPTON:  What is more, Mr Irving ----
   A.   This is a very serious charge to make, of course.
   MR RAMPTON:  Of course it is.  It is a charge I made in
        the case and I intend to make it good.
   A.   You did not make the anti-Semitic charge in opening
   Q.   I made the charge that you made statements, and I now
        the word "deliberately", which are deliberately
        to feed the virulent anti-Semitism which alas today in
        world is still alive and kicking, and you know
        well that that is what you are doing.  I further say,
        we will look at some of this down the line, that some
        the observations you make on these occasions are
        themselves greatly anti-Semitic.
   A.   Well, no doubt we can take each of these seriatim when
        come to them.
   Q.   We will.  You will remember the one that I read out in
        opening, will you not?
   A.   Mr Rampton, your instructing solicitors may not have
        you but we had correspondence on this matter, and
        I invited the solicitors to say to me whether they
        going to level at me the allegation that I am anti-
        so that I would have the opportunity to lead evidence

.          P-148

        that.  They refused to state at that time that that
        their intention.  You are now coming totally against
        principles of the new rules with this fresh allegation
        that I am in some way anti-Semitic.
   Q.   No, I did not say that.
   A.   I think it is highly improper.
   Q.   If you will read the transcript of what I said I chose
        words very carefully.
   A.   I am sure you did, Mr Rampton, so that they get in the
        newspapers in that form tomorrow.  I am sure you know
        exactly how carefully to choose your words to make a
        like that.
   Q.   I do. That is why they pay me, Mr Irving.  Precision
        everything, I find.  You make observations -- I am
        to repeat myself without looking at the screen --
        can fairly characterised -- I am not sure that I have
        verbatim -- as grossly anti-Semitic on these
   A.   I am not going to dignify that with an answer, Mr
        unless his Lord invites me to.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, you do not have to.  I will invite
        Mr Rampton in due course to make that good by
reference to
        what you said.  That is elementary fairness to you.
   A.   To lead appropriate evidence.
   MR RAMPTON:  Thank you. I could not possibly say it if I
        not have that intention, Mr Irving.
   A.   It would have been nice if your solicitors had
informed me

.          P-149

        in good time that this was going to be your intention,
        which would have given us time over the months to
build up
        the appropriate dossier of counter material.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a fair point because I am not
        this is spelled out quite as clearly as you did just
        Mr Rampton.
   A.   Very clearly indeed in the correspondence between the
   MR RAMPTON:  It is not spelled out clearly in the original
        defence, my Lord, I accept.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have just been looking at the way it is
   MR RAMPTON:  I think it is spelled out very clearly in the
        statement of case.  I think it is.  I think I read it
        other day.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Tab 6, not so clearly as all that.
   A.   But this is clearly playing to the gallery in the form
        the press gallery.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, really, I must be the judge of
        that, must I not?
   A.   It goes to the conduct by the Defendants of the case
        the time comes, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course it does.
   MR RAMPTON:  Do you know anything at all about life at the
        Mr Irving?  Do you know anything about the rules under
        which we operate?

.          P-150

   A.   I am totally ignorant, as you are now well aware,
        Mr Rampton.
   Q.   If you did, you might not say something like that?
   A.   I am aware you are not supposed to lead evidence you
        cannot justify.
   Q.   I am never supposed to say anything that I do not
        can be justified, that is right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In the summary of case, which is quite
        and that is to its credit, I think you will see the
        observation I just made is perhaps not an unfair one.
   MR RAMPTON:  I did not sorry, I did not catch your
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I said that I did not read the
        summary of case as putting the Defendants' case as
        and in quite the terms that you put just now.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I do not think I can do better, and I
        not think I did better just now, than what appears in
        80 on page 27.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I was looking at the front.  You are
        at the end.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am looking at the summary we give of what we
        is to be drawn from the content of Mr Irving's
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you want to have a look at that,
        Mr Irving?
   A.   I think your Lordship sees my objection to this
        kind of thrust.

.          P-151

   MR RAMPTON:  Shall I read it, Mr Irving?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you ought to, Mr Rampton, because
        I think you have corrected me rightly, if I may say
   MR RAMPTON: "P - that is P for plaintiff as he then was -
        Mr Irving, is a right-wing pro Nazi ideologue, as is
        demonstrated by the views he has expressed in his
        and publications.  The Defendants will refer to the
        anti-Semitic racist and misogynistic tone and contents
        Mr Irving's speeches and publications, including those
        referred to above and in sections 1-5".
   A.   Very well.  If you are going to lead evidence about
        topic, then you ought to do so earlier, sooner rather
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a fair point.  The evidence must
        led.  But that is the case.  It is spelled out
   A.   Sooner rather than later, rather than leaving this
        allegation in suspense.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is what I am starting on now.  I have
        started on your speeches and publication.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we press on?
   MR RAMPTON:  Where am I now?  I am still in 1988.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We are still in Ottawa.
   MR RAMPTON:  Or was it Toronto?  That is what I am going to
        and prove, Mr Irving, over the next few hours or days
        however long it may take.

.          P-152

   A.   Would your Lordship allow me then to lead evidence to
        refute these allegation?  S.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes of course.
   A.   I am not sure how we can do it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You can do it yourself.
   A.   Or I can put it to one of the experts, Professor Levin
        Professor Eatwell.  It is an easy slur to make, but it
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us concentrate on the evidence that
        going to be put now.
   MR RAMPTON:  The only thing which is going to stick in this
        case, Mr Irving, is his Lordship's judgment.  At
        I hope so.
   A.   Shall we proceed with the questioning, Mr Rampton.

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