Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.03
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR IRVING:  I only have one more question going to these
        protruberances on the roof.  You say the Germans are
        basically a very methodical and orderly kind of people
        when they design their buildings; they are not arty
        crafty.  They do not put a pillar here and a pillar there
        and "Let us have two over there".  They will put them in a
        straight line down the middle, as, indeed, we know they
        did in that very building, in the gas chamber, as you call it?
   A.   They are construction pillars we are talking about?
   Q.   Yes, the construction pillars that go down the centre of
        the room, do they not, with one single reinforced concrete
        beam down the centre of the room?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So these pillars go down the centre of the room.
   A.   Not only Germans.  I presume even English architecture and
        Canadian architecture do the same.
   Q.   I am sure they do.  Therefore, the wire mesh columns that
        you talked about which went up the side of the pillars
        would also be running down the centre of the roof, would

.          P-18



        they not?
   A.   No, not necessarily.  I mean, you can put them either
on
        the left or on the right side of the columns.
   Q.   Can we have another look at that photograph, in
particular
        the one on page 10A?  Is it your impression that those
        four objects are evenly spaced?
   A.   It seems that the second object is slightly more, the
        second object from the right, seems to be slightly
more to
        the left -- it seems to be at a different line than
the
        first and the third.
   Q.   Very well.  Do they appear to you to be running down
the
        centre line of that roof?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Or anywhere near the centre line of that roof?
   A.   I do not know, near.  It is very difficult to say in
this
        photograph exactly where they are, but it seems to be
in
        this perspective that the interpretation is that No. 1
and
        No. 3 maybe would be in line, but certainly No. 2
would
        not be on the same line as No. 1 and 3, going from the
        right, and No. 4 it is very difficult to determine
exactly
        what that thing is.
   Q.   Professor van Pelt, have you received just now a copy
of
        this photograph of the underside of the roof?
   A.   Yes.  I have it right in front of me.
   Q.   You accept that the underside of that slab we are
looking
        at there in the colour photograph, which is
Leichenkeller

.          P-19



        No. 1 of crematorium No. 2, is the room you identified
as
        the room where 500,000 people were gassed to death?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Will you accept that we can indeed see a very large
amount
        of the space of that underside of that roof?
   A.   It is very difficult from this photograph to say how
much
        space it is.  I have been under the roof and it is a
very
        tight space when you go there, when you actually film
it
        or photograph it, the scale becomes very difficult to
        determine.  What we certainly see here is that, if
indeed
        what we see in the front of this photograph is the
bricks,
        and pieces of bricks, then actually we are looking in
a
        very, very narrow space, because these bricks are this
        size more or less, so we are talking about a space
here, a
        crawl space right now.
   Q.   Like speediology, is it not, like cave hunting?  It
would
        be like going down into a very narrow cave, but all
the
        same the people manage to get down there and take the
        photograph of that large area of roof space and you
can
        see the lines of the formwork, the wooden lines where
the
        concrete has been moulded into the wet concrete as
running
        between the boards of the formwork?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You would expect therefore to find that interrupted in
        some way if there were these holes in the roof?
   A.   I would like to point out to you that in fact, if we
see

.          P-20



        the kind of converging parallel lines of the formwork
        going from the top of the photo, then passing over at
        least two big kind of stains, which shows it is not
very
        smooth, and then suddenly that formwork stops because
        there is actually a diagonal line going more or less
from
        the top left of the picture to the middle of the right
        hand side, so the form work certainly not very
regular,
        which it is very easy to see on this photo.
   Q.   You do accept, do you not, that the whole of the story
of
        the 500,000 people killed in that chamber rises or
falls,
        rests or falls on the existence of those holes in that
        roof?
   A.   No.
   Q.   We only have the eyewitness evidence.
   A.   I disagree with that.  The whole story rises and falls
on
        the evidence that this room was a gas chamber, which
is a
        slightly different issue.
   Q.   Well, setting that aside for a moment and we will come
        back to that other evidence in a moment, we still have
not
        heard any other evidence than the eyewitness evidence
we
        have heard about.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, before you leave the
photograph,
        took this photograph?
   MR IRVING:  A number of, shall we say, revisionist
researchers
        have gone down there and taken these photographs.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The professionals say it is revisionist

.          P-21



        research.
   MR IRVING:  It is revisionist research, my Lord, but the
point
        I was about to make was, as your Lordship may
apprehend it
        was, as it is now accepted and has been accepted for
some
        years that the whole story rises and falls on the
        existence of holes, one would have expected the
        researchers at the other end of the spectrum to have
been
        down frantically looking for those holes to prove us
wrong
        and they have not.  They have not bothered to scrape
off
        the rubble on the top to look for the evidence on top
of
        the holes.  They have not bothered to make any kind of
        survey clearing aside this brick mess underneath,
digging
        deeper in, looking for evidence that those holes exist
and
        frankly, my Lord, I cannot accept the notion that the
        Nazis, in the last frantic days when we heard
yesterday
        they were in a blue funk, blowing up buildings, taking
out
        the equipment, dismantling everything nut and bolt,
that
        they would have gone round with a bucket of cement
filling
        in the holes of the buildings they were about to
dynamite.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is in the nature of a small speech
and
        obviously you will be making that point later on, but
for
        the time being press on with your questions.
   A.   My Lord, may I respond to this?  Can I take the speech
as
        a question?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us deal with it slightly more
        evidentially.  You are being asked for the evidence
you

.          P-22



        rely on apart from the eyewitnesses.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just pause.  You have your shout and I am
        going to have mine.  You have identified the
photographs
        which we have just been looking at, and I think we are
        going to want to know what other evidence you rely on.
        Mr Irving, that is not an inconvenient moment to ask
that
        question, is it?
   MR IRVING:  I was just going to ask one supplementary
question,
        which is to your knowledge, Professor, have any
        investigations of the underside of that roof been made
by
        the Auschwitz museum authorities or the Polish
        authorities?
   A.   I do not know, my Lord.
   Q.   Do you believe that, if there was any doubt as to the
        existence of those holes, or if there was any belief
that
        those holes really existed, is it not likely that they
        would have made the most strenuous attempts to
establish
        that fact?
   A.   I cannot second guess the way the Auschwitz museum or
the
        Polish authorities operate.  What I do know is that
they
        do not generally allow their research agenda to be set
by
        revisionists.
   Q.   Very well.
   A.   My Lord, may I introduce a second piece of evidence?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I would find it helpful, Mr Irving,
to

.          P-23



        know what other evidence.  You started by asking what
        other evidence is there.
   MR IRVING:  This is the question I asked earlier on and I
did
        say that we would come back to that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have the answer now.
   MR IRVING:  We have the eyewitnesses to whose integrity I
shall
        be coming back later on this morning, but let us hear
what
        else you have?
   A.   The second piece of evidence I would like to introduce
is
        in tab No. 2, and it is circled photo No. 6, which is
an
        air photo taken by Americans in the summer of 1944,
which
        shows, if we look at that --, I do not know exactly
how to
        turn it.  If one looks at the photo from the side, we
see
        crematorium (ii) to the right and crematorium 3 to the
        left.  Now, one sees in this photo very clearly
jutting
        out the undressing room.  It is actually the entry at
the
        end.  It is like a little tab attached to it, and the
        morgue No. 1, and on morgue No. 1 there are four dots.
In
        the same morgue No. 1 at crematorium 3 one sees those
        three dots.
   MR IRVING:  You describe them as dots, Professor.  Would
you
        like to estimate how long those dots actually are?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The dots are going, as it were, in a line
up
        to the top of the page.  Are these the dots there?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see.

.          P-24



   MR IRVING:  If I may point them out on this large colour
map,
        my Lord, they go along this roof here, do they not,
which
        is the alleged gas chamber?  Right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   OK.
   A.   So that is a second piece of evidence, and I will
leave it
        to this for the movement.  I presume Mr Irving will
        challenge this and I will respond to his challenge.
   Q.   I did ask you a question if you remember.  This was,
would
        you estimate on the evidence in front of you
approximately
        how big those dots are?
   A.   I find it very difficult.  I do not know exactly how
the
        shadow runs.
   Q.   Is that a shadow or an object?
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, can I intervene to be helpful?  There
is
        an even clearer photograph, a medium enlargement, on
the
        previous page in the bundle on the right-hand side.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is a better photograph.  I
think
        that is helpful.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is even clearer.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it the same photograph?
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not know.  The witness will know that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  More overexposed, as it were, than the
other
        one.
   A.   Yes.  It is not exactly.  It was not taken from the
same
        thing because you can see near crematorium 3, on the
one

.          P-25



        photograph you can see these lines going in, which
        actually were used for labels, attach labels to it,
and
        when they were published in 1979 or so, and you do not
see
        those lines pointing to crematorium 3, the morgue No.
1
        and the fence in the image on page No. 5, printed No.
4.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  On page 5 crematorium (ii) is on the
left.
        Correct?
   A.   Yes.  Crematorium (ii) is on the left.
   MR IRVING:  Are these the same photographs, Professor?
   A.   No, they do not seem to be.  I think they are the same
        photograph but they come from a different source.
   Q.   I do not think they can be the same photographs
Professor,
        because of course the shadow of the chimney is going
in
        the different direction, unless I am wrong..
   A.   The shadow of the chimney goes in the same direction.
We
        see the shadow of the chimney going north west in both
        photos.

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