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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.11

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.11
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Well, the British had ways of identifying people.  We had
        lists of names, we had the code breaking intercepts and so
        on.  We knew who was who.
   A.   Mr Broad was, as far as we know, a Rottenfuhrer.  I do
        think his name was very high on the list of people the
        British were looking for.
   Q.   The fact remains that he had a guilty conscious
because he
        had participated in shootings in Auschwitz
        camp, and eventually he was put on trial, not by the
        British, but by the Germans.  The British treated him
        some special way, is this correct?
   A.   He was, he became an interpreter in the camp and then
at a
        certain moment when he gave his evidence it was
        that he was a very important witness.
   Q.   Yes.  He is one of your eyewitnesses for the existence
        the pipes on the roofs, admittedly at a distance, but
        described, if I remember his testimony in the Tesh
        correctly, these pipes on the roof being opened and
        pouring stuff in.  He described six of them rather
        four, is that correct?
   A.   Again I think we should look at the material that is
in my
        report, but I think at least I can say right now that
        I remember that in the Tesh case he refers to a
        happened in crematorium (i), that the particular
        you refer to.  But again I think we should, before we
        a final conclusion on that, look at the actual

.          P-90

        given in the Tesh case because I thought it was
        crematorium No. (i) he was talking about.
   Q.   Is it known to you that Pery Broad was a Brazilian
   A.   Yes, I know that.
   Q.   In other words, he was not a German national, he was a
        Brazilian national.  Was Brazil fighting on the side
        the Allies in World War II?
   A.   I think that ultimately Brazil joined, yes.
   Q.   And yet he was wearing the uniform of the SS, of an
        power and he was committing these crimes in the
uniform of
        an enemy power?
   A.   I would like to remind the judge that many people in
        SS were actually Vorstattue who had passports from
        different countries, from countries other than
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The significance of the fact he was
        is escaping me at the moment, but...
   MR IRVING:  I was about to say, would not the fact that he
        a member of an allied nation fighting in German
        have put him in precisely the same category as William
        Joyce or John Amery, and have exposed him to being put
        trial in Brazil for treason?  Was this not another
        that was hanging over his head at the time he was in
   A.   I cannot possibly comment on that.
   Q.   But you do agree that he was technically committing

.          P-91

        treason by fighting in the uniform of an enemy power?
   A.   I think that Mr Broad in May 1945 probably had other
        things on his mind than that particular issue of if
        was going to ask for his extradition.
   Q.   Do you use the statement of a witness called Hans
Stark as
        proof of the gassings?
   A.   I have the statement in my report, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  In section 9, the Leuchter report of your report
        I am afraid again I do not know the page number -- you
        quoted from it and I will quote the passage that you
        used, in your language:  "As early as autumn 1941,
        gassings were carried out in a room in the small
        crematorium which had been prepared for this purpose.
        room held 200 to 250 people"?
   MR RAMPTON:  514, my Lord.
   MR IRVING:  Thank you very much.  I am indebted.  I will
   A.   We are talking about Stark now, the Stark testimony?
   Q.   The testimony of the eyewitness Hans Stark:  "As early
        autumn 1941" -- this goes more to the question of your
        treatment of sources rather than crematorium No. (ii).
         "As early as autumn 1941 gassings were carried out in
        room in the small crematorium which had been prepared
        this purpose.  The room held 200 to 250 people, had a
        higher than average ceiling, no windows only a
        insulated door with bolts like those of an airtight

.          P-92

        door."  Is that your translation of that document?
   A.   Yes, this is my translation -- no, this is actually an
        existing translation.  If we go to the quote, we see
        was done by Deborah Burnstone.
   Q.   Deborah?
   A.   Burnstone.
   Q.   Does it also give the original German of the text?
   A.   No, it is not.
   Q.   Did you take any trouble to ascertain the original
        of that text?
   A.   No, I did not.
   Q.   If I tell that you the word "airtight", the word
        translated as "airtight door", in the original German
        Luftschutzer, is that how you would have translated
   A.   An airtight door as a Luftschutzer door?
   Q.   In the original German of Hans Stark it is
        which has been translated ----
   A.   If you show me the passage, Mr Irving, I am happy to
        confirm or not that, indeed, that is the way ----
   Q.   I am putting one word to you.  The original German
        not "airtight door" in English, but "Luftschutzer" in
        German.  Would you tell the court what "Luftschutzer"
        translates into in English?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Airtight door", I would have thought?
   A.   "Luftschutz" in general, "luft" means "air raid".
   Q.   Air protection.

.          P-93

   A.   Luftschutz ----
   Q.   "Luftschutz", yes, I see.
   MR IRVING:  Is an air raid and air raid [German], my Lord?
        Now, either inadvertently or deliberately, somebody
        you say it is Burnstone has mistranslated that word
from a
        totally harmless and, in fact, significant "air raid
        into the rather more sinister "airtight door"?
   A.   In the context of quite a sinister description, I
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, look at the context.
   MR IRVING:  I beg your pardon?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Look at the context.  As I understand it,
        actually said "like those of an airtight door", but
        is in the context of gassings in 1941 and Zyklon-B
        poured through holes in the roof.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, there are any number of eyewitness
        statements like that which are in the report.  I am
        looking here at the quality of the translation which
        frequently tilted against or tilted in favour of the
        Holocaust definition.  Your Lordship will remember
        I have been trying to establish the case that these
        sinister door scattered around the camps at Auschwitz
        Birkenhau were, in fact, provisions for the coming air
        raids and the Germans anticipated there were going to
        gas attacks as well, as, indeed, did we, British, with
        air raid shelters.

.          P-94

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I understand the suggestion, but what you
        cannot possibly say, Mr Irving, is that Hans Stark is
        describing an air raid shelter on the basis of this
        passage, can you?
   MR IRVING:  I am concentrating here only on the door, my
        I have no other means of attacking the integrity of
        Stark as a witness.  I am looking here at the rather
        slipshod use of the word "airtight door" when the
        is quite clearly referred to as looking just like an
        raid shelter door of which we will be producing
        photographs to the court later on.
                  This is of significance because the Defence
        on a number of photographs of doors found scattered
        the compound of Auschwitz and Birkenhau, and we will
        that these are standard German air raid shelter doors
        complete with peep holes.
                  I think this is the time I would ask your
        Lordship to look at the little bundle of five pages of
        documents I produced this morning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, certainly.
   MR IRVING:  I have not yet handed it to your Lordship.  It
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where are we going to put this?  Shall we
        it in ----
   MR IRVING:  J, I think, my Lord.

.          P-95

   MR IRVING:  I have started a new numbering system which
will go
        all the way through with consistent consecutive
        from now on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I gathered that was being done.  That is
        helpful.  We got as far, I think, as about 14 maybe.
   MR IRVING:  We started with 00, unfortunately.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am only up to 11, so something has gone
   MR IRVING:  The 0 now comes after the 11.  The one I have
        you should come after 11, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am going to put it for the time being -
        actually it is 12.  Yes?
   MR IRVING (To the witness):  These are three or four
        documents.  They are significant because they refer to
        trips made from Auschwitz to Dessau to pick up Zyklon-
        truck loads of Zyklon-B.  Are you familiar with this
        of signal or radio message?
   A.   Well, I am not familiar with this particular one.
   Q.   Not with this particular one?
   A.   I have seen -- I absolutely do not doubt, I do not
        the -- you know, the integrity of the thing.
   Q.   If you will look at page 1 rather than the first one,
        0, if you look at page 1 as numbered at the bottom,
        will see the signal at the bottom looks rather
        does it not?  I have translated it on page 2.  It is a
        message from Berlin to the Kommandant of Auschwitz,

.          P-96

        effectively, giving driving permission.  Every time
        made a journey by truck because of the shortage of
        they had to have permission from Berlin.  "Permission
        herewith given for one five tonne truck with trailer
        Dessau and back for the purpose of fetching materials
        the Jew resettlement.  This permit is to be handed to
        driver to take with him".  It is signed Levehenshal
who is
        at Berlin still at that time.  What interpretation
        you put on that message, October 2nd, 1942?
   A.   That a truck, a five tonne truck, is sent to Dessau to
        collect material for the Jews' settlement.  Dessau, as
        know from other telegrams and as we know also from the
        rest of the record, was the location where the Zyklon-
        was being produced in one of the factories.  So, the
        context of what we know also of the other messages
        that this is most likely a permission to collect in a
        tonne truck Zyklon-B from the original manufacturer.
   Q.   In fact, more than five tonnes because they are taking
        trailer as well, are they not?
   A.   With a trailer, yes.
   Q.   So they are collecting over five tonnes -- it would be
        reasonable assumption, based on this document, that
        are collecting over five tonnes of some material which
        probably Zyklon-B cyanide pellets?
   A.   Yes.  I mean, I do not know exactly the weight, but
        I think that in the document I have written (of which

.          P-97

        have a copy) on your suggestion more or less that I
        dealt with this matter about how much the truck would
        have, most likely would have carried.
   Q.   It is specified clearly in this report, in this
        that it is for the Jew resettlement, for the
   A.   For the Judenumsiedlung, yes.
   Q.   That makes it even more sinister, does it not?
   A.   Given the fact what the word "Judenumsiedlung" had
come to
        mean in 1942, yes, this would be quite a sinister
   Q.   Will you now turn over the page to page 3 which you
        take it is a translation of the upper telegram on page
   A.   I am sorry?
   Q.   Page 3 at the foot of -- you have no page 3?
   A.   I have page 3, but I look at No. 1.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   At No. 1, the upper telegram.
   Q.   It is a translation of the upper telegram No. 1?
   A.   Yes, OK.
   Q.   This is from Gluks(?).  Who is Gluks?
   A.   Gluks is the Chief of the Inspectorate for
   Q.   He has the rank of something like a Brigadier General,
        does he not?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-98

   Q.   This again is a driving permit sent to Auschwitz
        concentration camp.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Answering a request:  "Permission herewith given for one
        automobile", a car, "to go from Auschwitz to
        Lischmannstadt and back on September 16th 1942 for the
        purpose of inspecting the experimental station for field
        kitchens for Operation Reinhard.  This permit is to be
        handed to the driver to take with him"?
   A.   I think your translation is wrong there, Mr Irving.

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