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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.13

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.13
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   So if five tonnes of pellets were picked up, then it is
        five tonnes of tins containing Zyklon-B pellets?
   A.   Yes.  The truck is not going to carry more than five
        tonnes, whatever it is.  So, ultimately, the amount of
        hydrogen cyanide which actually is carried by this truck
        will be closer to because it is more or less, I think
        1/5th of the gross weight of a tin is actually hydrogen
        cyanide will be closer to a tonne than five tonnes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, are you putting forward a positive
        case as to what the materials for the Jew resettlement
        were if they were not Zyklon-B?
   MR IRVING:  We are just going to move to document 0, my Lord,
        the first document in that next clip.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So that is going to answer the question, is it?
   MR IRVING:  Which I hope will go a long way towards answering
        the question.  This comes from exactly the same kind of
        source.  It is the one which the Holocaust historians
        never quote.  They frequently quote the other two or three
        which are in this clip.  This is received in Auschwitz on
        July 22nd 1942, again from Berlin:  "I herewith give
        permission for one five tonne truck to drive from
        Auschwitz to Dessau and back to fetch gas for the gassing
        of the camp to combat the epidemic that has broken out".
                  Now you can read that document whichever way you

.          P-108

        wish, my Lord.  It is quite possible, of course, that the
        Defence will submit that this is just camouflage.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us ask Professor van Pelt.
   A.   Absolutely I do not think it is camouflage.  I think that
        in my book at a certain moment (and Mr Irving picked it
        up) I said that in the summer 1942 a lot of Zyklon was
        being used in the camp, to indeed, basically, how you call
        it, fumigate clothing and barracks because there was an
   Q.   We will just remain with this for two or three more
        minutes, my Lord.
   A.   But it does not mean it was the exclusive use of Zyklon-B.
   Q.   Just before the adjournment -- this largely ends that
        matter -- in your section 5 called "Confession"s, you have
        reproduced the testimony of a man called Muka, who was the
        adjutant of the Kommandant of Auschwitz at this time.
   A.   I do.  Shall we turn to the particular page?
   Q.   These permission slips to dispatch the trucks were
        frequently signed by Muka, were they not?
   A.   Let us go to the page.  I am happy, I know what you refer
        to, statements made in the Frankfurt trial, but I do not
        exactly know where it is right now.  Do you have a page
   Q.   Only that it is in (v) "Confessions".  My pagination,
        unfortunately ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think, as we have not got the reference to

.          P-109

        hand, shall we deal with that at 2 o'clock?
   MR IRVING:  Until 2 o'clock?  Very well, my Lord.

                        (Luncheon adjournment)

   MR IRVING:  My Lord, might I ask that you remind those present
        that we are not sitting tomorrow in case some people make
        the mistake and come tomorrow and do not realize that we
        are not sitting?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are quite right that we are not sitting
        tomorrow, but also on Friday, what I would like to do is
        perhaps start an half an hour earlier than normal and
        probably finish earlier than normal as well, so sit at 10
        on Friday.  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  From Dessau to Auschwitz, my Lord, but before I go
        on, can I remark on something in my translation about
        field kitchens?  Firstly, as your Lordship is aware,
        I have never denied the killings in Chelmno and, if those
        documents are connected in any way, then I fully accept
        that and that is a logical interpretation.  Secondly, my
        wartime German medical dictionary says "ofen" is a stove.
        That is a translation for it.  So it is not actually in
        the form of a grating which would be gussen in German,
        I believe.  So I think, although I am quite prepared to
        accept Professor van Pelt's interpretation of that
        document, not being aware of the surrounding foliage of
        the documents which Professor van Pelt has, this, your
        Lordship will appreciate, is rather the position I have

.          P-110

        been in.  Some of the documents, I have been aware of the
        surrounding document foliage which gives colour to
        particular translations.  I am perfectly prepared to
        accept the interpretation of that word in any case.
                  We were looking at section 5 called
        "confessions" of your report.  You quote the testimony
        given in a later trial of the man called Mulka, who was on
        Hess's staff, who assigned some of these driving permits.
        I do not know the page number.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Perhaps the defendants can help?
   MR RAMPTON:  We are going to try.
   MR IRVING:  These permits were provided to the prosecution in
        the so-called Auschwitz Frankfurt trial.
   A.   I have found the thing, by the way.  It is page 320 in my
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  514 I was going to offer, but we will try to
        look at 320 first.
   MR IRVING:  These were submitted as evidence in the Frankfurt
        Auschwitz trial and Mulka was cross-examined.  The
        presiding judge on this occasion asked him about these
                  "Accused Mulka, have you signed permissions for
        trips to Dessau?  (Mulka) I only remember one occasion.  A
        permission was signed by Glucks and at the left bottom
        countersigned by me.  It concerned a disinfection means.
        (Question) Here it reads 'For the resettlement of the

.          P-111

        Jews' -- one of documents which I produced, my Lord --
        and 'In confirmation of the copy Mulka'.  You knew what
        the resettlement of the Jews meant?  (Mulka) Yes, that was
        known to me.  (Q) And what were those materials for the
        resettlement of the Jews?  (Mulka) (silently) -- I am not
        sure how one can do that -- Yes, raw materials.  (Q) All
        right then.  That was thus Zyklon-B?  (Mulka) (even more
        silently) Yes, Zyklon-B".
                  Of course, that is a rather odd kind of
        examination by the presiding judge, is it not, Professor
        van Pelt?  You would have expected, certainly if
        Mr Justice Gray had been presiding there, he would have
        asked the obvious follow up question, what was it going to
        be used for? Either it was not asked, or it was not
        recorded, or you did not tell us?
   A.   Now.  There are no dots in paragraph.  The original page
        is in the binder so you can check the original page, if I
        have quoted the thing as a whole or if I have left
        something out, but I can assure you, my Lord, that
        I quoted the whole passage.  So the third kind of option
        I would reject out of hand.  I think that probably the
        problem in this court was that people knew too well what
        these words meant and what was implied by the question,
        and that they did not find it necessary to be very
        specific about it.  If I had been the judge, I probably
        would have asked one more extra question, but the judge

.          P-112

        did not do it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In other words, there is some force in Mr
        Irving's point?  I think you are conceding that?
   A.   Yes.
   MR IRVING:  I am not for one moment implying, and I want to
        make it quite plain, that Professor van Pelt has omitted
        any response or any subsequent question which was material
        to this issue, but it is a rather odd kind of examination,
        that the presiding judge did not say, "And what were these
        materials to be used for to your certain knowledge",
        whereupon Mulka could either say, "Oh, they were going to
        be used for fumigation or they were going to be used for
        killing human beings".  It is a negative piece of evidence
        and I will now ask Professor van Pelt, of these five
        tonnes of Zyklon-B pellets, or over five tonnes, that were
        picked up on a trip like this, in your estimation how much
        would be used for fumigation purposes?  In other words,
        for innocent life saving purposes as opposed to homicidal
        purposes?  What kind of percentage?
   A.   That is very difficult to say.  I have submitted to the
        court a document in which I calculate, on the basis of the
        figures for 1943, the likely use of Zyklon-B in
        Auschwitz.  This is the supplement to the expert's
        opinion.  I am happy to go through those figures.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, part I of the blue file.
   A.   I am happy to go through those figures because, if you

.          P-113

        want me to be very specific, I can be very specific, and
        I made quite detailed calculations.  Of course the
        question depends on how large is the camp at the time, how
        many prisoners are there at the time, how many delousing
        installations are available in the camp at the time, what
        kind of transports are coming in, and so on.
   MR IRVING:  Let us see if you can talk in round figures.  If it
        was being used for fumigation purposes, it would be used
        for two fumigation purposes, would it not, for fumigating
        barracks and for fumigating clothing and objects, shall we
   A.   Yes, you are right.
   Q.   For that purpose they had a purpose built fumigation
        chamber in Auschwitz, the one that we have seen with the
        blue stains on the outside walls?
   A.   There are a number of them, in fact.  There was one
        building ----
   Q.   B W 5?
   A.   Also in Auschwitz I there was a building with two
        fumigation rooms but they were probably used consecutively
        in Auschwitz.  Then there was a fumigation or delousing
        facility in Canada I which we discussed yesterday, where
        the hair was found and we have a fumigation capability in
        Zyklon, I am now talking only about Zyklon, in Birkenhau,
        in the women's camp.
   Q.   What other kind of fumigation equipment did they have

.          P-114

        apart from Zyklon?  Did they have any other equipment at
        any time in Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
   A.   Do you mean toxic equipment?
   Q.   Any kind of methods of killing pests.
   A.   The preferred method, if they could do that, they would
        really prefer, was either by hot air or hot steam.
   Q.   Would not hot steam have a bad effect on textiles?
   A.   That was one of many of the prisoners, inmates.  They
        complained that always, when their prisoner clothing had
        been disinfected, had come back from the so-called
        Entwesungsanlage as they were called, indeed they had
        shrunk considerably.  This is a continuous problem in the
        history of the camp.
   Q.   So the entwesungsanlage is a familiar concept to you,
        then, that German word?  It is disinfestation equipment?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is it also familiar to you that, at a relatively late
        stage in the war years, the Siemens Company were
        installing an electrical system of pest killing based on
   A.   Yes, kurzwelle Entlausungsanlage.
   Q.   The short wave disinfestation equipment?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   This was rather like a microwave cooker for cooking the
        insects basically?
   A.   I do not exactly know the technology but I trust your

.          P-115

   Q.   This was basically a high voltage system using a lot of
        electric power that was going to be installed in
   A.   It was going to be installed but, as far as I know, it
        actually never was installed.
   Q.   It arrived.  It was delivered.
   A.   It was actually meant for Auschwitz I.  What happened was
        that in Auschwitz I a very large Zyklon-B delousing
        installation was created at the aufnahmegebaude which is
        the reception building for prisoners.  There were 19
        standard delousing cells, each of 10 cubic metres which
        uses two hundred grammes of Zyklon-B, the smallest tin,
        and as this building was being completed, the SS decided
        to change the method of disinfection in those cells, at
        least in four of those cells.  There were 19 so 15 would
        remain Zyklon-B, and four of them would be the Siemens.
   Q.   What word would they use to describe that kind of room or
        building?  Would it be a Vergasungsraum or a
   A.   In general these rooms are called Gaskammer.
   Q.   They are also called Gaskammer?
   A.   Yes.  In 1944, however, I have to go because in 1944
        actually the language changes.  They called them normal
        Gaskammer, which means on the type sheets which were
        produced by the SS and, if you allow me, my Lord, I will

.          P-116

        just make ----

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