Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.24 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Where large numbers of these Hungarian Jews put to work in Germany? A. The question is difficult to determine that, because there are different numbers of how many durkhanstudent there were, and this is in some way a point which certainly I would like to have seen, you know, more clearly established. One of the debates about the mortality during the Hungarian action of course ultimately has to relate, because when we know more or less how many Hungarian Jews were admitted to the camp and there are . P-206 only two ways to explain what happened, only two ways one can explain what happened to the people who were not admitted to the camp, either they were killed or they were sent to the West. So the issue of the mortality of the Hungarian Jews in Auschwitz ultimately is tied up to the number of durkhanstudent there were, and the Auschwitz camp, the numbers I remember of around 25,000 as to the number of durkhanstudent who went from Auschwitz to the West. Q. How many remained in the camp and were liquidated, in your opinion? A. I do not really want to give an opinion right now. I mean I am happy again to look at the figures. It seems to be that in May and June very high percentages of these transports were selected for death, but we are talking about hundreds of thousands of people who were killed in Auschwitz in the month of May and June. Q. Let us just for two minutes talk about Sturmlager, Auschwitz one? A. Yes. Q. Which is now the big tourist centre, is it not? A. This is where the reception building is where the film was shown and where there are exhibitions, yes. Q. Yes. They have a building there which they describe as the gas chambers and they show it to tourists as a gas chamber, is that right? . P-207 A. There is a crematorium there and in the crematorium is a room which is described as a gas chamber. Q. There is a big chimney behind the building? A. Yes. Q. Which is not connected in any way whatsoever to the crematorium? A. The chimney there which is right next to it is a reconstruction of the original chimney which was in exactly the same position which was connected like the chimney in crematoria two and three by underground flue to the crematorium building. This is a way to increase the draft of the chimney by leading the gas at basement level. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not quite sure what the point of these questions is. MR IRVING: It is very brief, my Lord. The prisoner reception centre at Auschwitz one is where now the tourists arrive, am I right? A. That is where the cafeteria is. Q. I have never been there, so I take your word for it. They are then taken into a building and at the end of the tour, "This is the gas chamber". They are invited to believe that this is the gas chamber, is that right? A. One is not taken into building. One can either visit the building yes or no. Q. But they invited to believe that this was the gas chamber? A. There is a sign which says "crematorium and gas chamber". . P-208 Q. Was that building that is described as tourists as a gas chamber ever used as a gas chamber? A. Yes, it was used as a gas chamber. Q. This is not what you wrote in your book? A. That is exactly what I wrote. I have a very long description in my book about the use of that space, and the space is not exactly the same as in the war. I have a very long quotation. A number of different places. Q. The space is what? A. At the moment the space is one bay bigger than it was during of war. I have extensive descriptions in my book of the transformation of that space into a gas chamber and of the use of that space into a gas chamber. Q. If you go there as a tourist now and you ask the guides, they will admit to you that this was never used as a gas chamber, is that, is that right? MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really worthless, is it not. MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is worthless as a point. MR IRVING: The guides would know, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: They might or they might not. I should think probably they were born 30 years after these events. MR IRVING: My Lord, I will on Friday confront this witness, if I may, with what he wrote in his original book on precisely the building we are talking about, where he said in terms that this building is a fake. . P-209 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Even if it is, I just do not want you to build up a point that is not really at the moment impressing me enormously. Tell me if I am wrong. This is trying to convey to people, you call them tourists, all right, call them tourists if you want to, what things were like according to a lot of people's opinion. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there anything wrong with that? MR IRVING: Yes, it is called "passing off". The tourists are not told that is a fake. They are not told that this building was erected in 1948. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, make of this point whatever you wish, Mr Irving. MR IRVING: My Lord, the point is quite clearly, of course, that later on you will be hearing how I have been fined a substantial amount for saying precisely this fact which turns out to be true. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not concerned with what other courts have done, fined you or whatever. MR IRVING: It will be held against me by the witnesses, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, not by me which is perhaps more important. THE WITNESS: My Lord, may I just give Mr Irving one piece of advice as he prepares for this, that I know which sentence in the book you are going to refer to, but I also would invite you to read pages 293 and following of my book . P-210 which describes in detail the transformation of this morgue into a gas chamber and the operation as a gas chamber. MR IRVING: The transformation of the morgue into a gas chamber? A. Yes. Page 293, in the late summer/early fall of 1941. Because I will come back to those pages when you are talking about my epilogue where the discussion is about the present condition of the building. I will refer back to this page, so we save each other and the judge a lot of time. Q. You are also discussing the integrity of the site, are you not? A. I am quite happy to discuss the integrity of the site. Q. In your book you did? A. Yes, I did. Q. And you complained that the integrity of the site has been tampered with and that it is no longer the same buildings and they are not being put to the same uses? A. If you confront the same, the exact words, then I comment on it. My major discussion is on the prisoner reception building, and I deplore the fact that this building is not shown in its original state, but has been used for tourist purposes. Q. Why would the present Director of the Auschwitz State Museum in 1995 say to the French newspaper, L'Expresse, . P-211 "Toute y est faux", "Everything there is fake"? A. This is -- I think I deal with it in my report and I am happy to go to my report, to the particular thing which was said. We are dealing here, certainly the one thing is that the person did not speak French and, if you want, I can go to my report and deal with this. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have made my position clear. I do not understand where this gets anybody, this point. MR RAMPTON: And I do not either and I, perhaps, in some sense have as much interest in this aimless ramble as your Lordship because the longer me and my team are in court, the more money it costs my clients. I am OK, but it is quarter past 4 and we are not sitting tomorrow, but if this start up again on Friday, I am going to have something to say about it. MR IRVING: Well, my Lord, we spent some time looking at the integrity of crematorium No. (ii) which has been held to be highly pertinent to this case. The other extermination centre is supposed to be Auschwitz 1 or the Sturmlager, and I hold that I am entitled to look at the integrity of that site too. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, yes, as it originally was, of course, but whether it is a tourist reconstruction, which is, I think, how you like ---- MR IRVING: Or what I call a "fake". MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- or a tourist fake, whatever label you like . P-212 to put on it, seems to me not really to be the point. If you want to investigate what it was used for at the relevant period, 1942/43, that is one thing, but you are now investigating whether it has been described by the Superintendent at Auschwitz as being a fake. Well, so what? MR IRVING: This is of relevance only when we come to the political part of this case, my Lord, where I am accused of having said despicable and perverse things which could not possibly be true. For this reason, I was proposing to ask this expert on the Holocaust and on Auschwitz to what degree what I said was true. Your Lordship may consider this is totally irrelevant in which case, of course, I shall bow to your Lordship's ruling. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if that is what it is said to be relevant to ---- MR IRVING: I apologise for not having made that plain. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- I would like to see quite what it was that you did say about Auschwitz being a tourist attraction or part of Auschwitz being a tourist attraction. MR IRVING: The actual sentence was: "The building which is shown to the tourist today is a fake built by the Poles after the war as a gas chamber". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to take that any further? I mean, you have the answer. . P-213 MR IRVING: Not at this moment, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: "No, it is not a fake because it was used as a gas chamber". That is what Professor van Pelt says. You do not have to accept it, obviously. MR IRVING: Except that I may wish very briefly confront him with what he himself wrote, if I may, but not at this moment, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will look at page 293 as well? MR IRVING: It may not be the page I am relying upon, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect it will not be. Now, I think we have probably reached the end of the day. 10 o'clock on Friday. (To the witness): You are going to be able to be back? A. Yes, I will come back tomorrow night. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think it might help everybody to know how much more cross-examination -- it is very difficult to estimate, I realize. MR IRVING: I have already informed leading counsel for the Defendants that I do not want anticipate having much more than about another half day of questions because I would like to think that Professor van Pelt can return over the weekend, given adequate time for re-examination where necessary. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Well, that is very kind of you to have given that indication. Mr Rampton, do you think that you will reach somebody else on Friday? . P-214 MR RAMPTON: I have not got any witnesses. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not? MR RAMPTON: No, not to bring on Friday, no, but I am not really doing my case. I am cross-examining Mr Irving. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Will you resume cross-examining him? MR RAMPTON: I can easily do that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. THE WITNESS: My Lord, may I just -- since I think that I still have to give the presentation on the blueprints, so I think that -- I do not know exactly how long it will take me, but I think it will take me an hour, an hour and a half to do that, to go through the material. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will it really take as long as that? That is slightly gloomier, but that is no disrespect to you, but if you can present it more ---- A. If you want it shorter, give me time and I will try to do it much shorter. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you are going to have a bit of time to think about it. 10 o'clock on Friday. (The witness stood down) The court adjourned until Friday, 28th January 2000) . P-215
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