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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day012.04

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day012.04
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   No, Mr Irving. It was a repetition of a deliberate

.          P-27

        mistranslation that you had already put on your web site,
        was it not?
   A.   I strongly resist the phrase "deliberate mistranslation."
        In fact, I have had e-mails from Germans all over the
        world who have read my web site within the last 24 hours
        who said that the translation "field kitchens" for
        "Feldofen" is entirely acceptable and intelligable.  The
        word "ofen" is a stove as in a kitchen stove and, without
        knowing what the background was of the document, it was an
        entirely plausible translation.
   Q.   Have you had a chance to consider that report from Zamoysk
        of 5th May 1943?  No sorry, wrong date, 16th December 1942
        that you said you wanted time to think about?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you remind me what that was about, Mr
   MR RAMPTON:  It relates to a transport of 644 Poles to
   A.   My Lord, I was going to make a submission about that
        report.  You remember this is one which the Defendants
        received anonymously, so they say, on the very day before
        the ----
   MR RAMPTON:  No "so they say", please, Mr Irving.  If I tell
        the judge on instructions from my solicitor that we
        received it the day before, you can take it that it is
        true, unless you can prove otherwise.
   A.   That is precisely what I said.  They say they received it

.          P-28

        anonymously the day before.
   Q.   It is the case.
   A.   That is not the point I am about to make, my Lord.  May I
        make a submission on that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would like to see the document if you can
        tell me where it is.
   MR RAMPTON:  I did hand it in together with the document about
        keeping the plan secret.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where did it go?
   MR RAMPTON:  It did not go anywhere, but I have a spare.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If it is loose, I probably still have it.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, my Lord.  It should go into K2 in due
        course.  Let me pass it up.  (Same handed).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you.  I have now found it, actually.
   MR RAMPTON:  It can go into tab 4 of K2 in due course, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If it is going ever to go there, can it not
        go there now?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  My only question at the moment is whether
        Mr Irving is yet willing to be cross-examined about it.
   A.   I said that I wished to make a submission to his Lordship
        about this.  My Lord, you know the circumstances in which
        this report was provided now?  It has been supplied
        anonymously to the Defendants.  Whether "anonymously"
        means it is anonymous in as much as we are not to be told
        the source?

.          P-29

   MR RAMPTON:  That is right.
   A.   Or whether it is anonymous in as much as they know the
        source but do not intend to identify it to me?  There is a
        substantial difference there, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  Let me make it quite clear. We know who the source
        is. I think I said actually when I produced the document,
        the source did not wish to be identified.
   A.   This is an entirely unsatisfactory state of affairs, my
        Lord. I should be placed in a position where, if
        necessary, if the source is within the jurisdiction, and
        I am sure Mr Rampton will be willing to tell us that, I
        should be put in a position where I can issue a subpoena
        duces tecum for the production of surrounding documents.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  At the moment this is just a bit of
        typescript.  I do not think myself that the identity of
        the person who actually physically handed it to the
        Defendants really is either here or there.  Its
        authenticity is not going to, I think, depend on the
        identity of the person who made it available to the
   A.   It is clearly unsatisfactory that I should be supplied
        with an orphan stray document.  We are required to rely on
        the assurances of the Defendants that it is authentic,
        that it comes from a proper provenance.  I should be
        placed in a position, my Lord, where I can, if necessary,
        see the surrounding documents which we were informed by

.          P-30

        Mr Rampton also exist.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am with you to this extent, Mr Irving, that
        I do think that I have to be told something by the
        Defendants which at any rate makes it, on the face of it,
        an authentic document.  For all I know at the moment, this
        was typed yesterday on some rather old fashioned
        typewriter.  There must be a limit to the way in which
        documents surface in court.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  Mr Irving has the document.  Had this been
        discovered by us earlier, it would have been in our list
        of documents and he would have been enabled to
        investigate, and if he found it appropriate to do so,
        dispute its authenticity.  I am only asking him shut
        up about it until such time as I can tell your Lordship
        exactly from which archive it came.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is what you need do, if I may
        respectfully say so.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is why I asked if he was ready to be
        cross-examined about it.  The answer seems to be no.
   A.   The question was not whether I accept its authenticity.
        The question was whether I am willing to be cross-examined
        on it and the answer is that I was already planning to
        make the submission that I did to your Lordship, that we
        should be told more about where it comes from so that, if
        necessary, I can subpoena the remaining documents.  We had

.          P-31

        a very good example with the cross-examination of
        Professor van Pelt on that Feldofen document, where the
        document has, on the face of it, a perfectly innocent
        explanation until you know the surrounding documents of
        which Professor van Pelt was aware, which gave it a very
        sinister connotation.  In this case it may be precisely
        the reverse.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think what I am going to say about this,
        Mr Rampton, is that you can return to it when you are in a
        position to say which archive it came from, which should
        not be all that difficult.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, it is not.  I think I know the answer but I am
        not going to say it in case I am wrong.  I am going to get
        chapter and verse.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then you can cross-examine on it.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will find out which archive it is in and how
        long that archive has been open to us.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is right.  I am going to put it
        in as 51, I think.  Do you agree?  K2 tab 4, page 51.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   Of course I have already asked all my advisers around the
        world what their take on this document is.  I have not
        been idle over the weekend, but I have to have time.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is fair.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I want to turn to something completely
        different, if I may, which is a meeting I think at

.          P-32

        Klessheim which I think is somewhere in Austria?
   A.   Schloss Klessheim, spelt either with one S or two Ss.
        I think it is spelt both ways.  It is a castle, a chateau,
        near Salzburg.
   Q.   That means that it is a place in Austria, I suppose, or
        was then.  That meeting, I believe, took place on 16th and
        17th April 1943, did it not?
   A.   Well, if we know which meeting you are referring to.
        On those days Adolf Hitler had a number of meetings with
        foreign leaders.
   Q.   He met Admiral Horthy, who was the Hungarian leader.  I do
        not know whether he was President or Prime Minister or
        whatever he was.
   A.   He was the Head of State.
   Q.   Head of State at Klessheim on 16th and 17th April 1943,
        did he not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   One of the topics which was discussed between them on both
        those days was the attitude of the Hungarian government
        towards its large Jewish population.
   A.   That is correct.
   Q.   I do not know how many Jews there were in Hungary, but it
        was a very large number, was it not?  It was over
   A.   Of the order of a million.  I think there were 500,000 in
        Budapest alone.

.          P-33

   Q.   You correct me if I am wrong. I am summarizing, my Lord,
        relevant part of Professor Evans' report is page 437 and
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you. I was just looking for that.
   MR RAMPTON:  What I am putting to Mr Irving is taken from that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is helpful to have the reference thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  I hope Mr Irving has it.  May I ask you, to save
        my asking questions ----
   A.   What page are we on?
   Q.   437 it starts.  Is it right, as Professor Evans writes in
        paragraphs 1 to 8 of the introduction of this part of his
        report, that from about the middle of 1942 until January
        1943, the Nazis had been making attempts to persuade or
        lean on the Hungarians to be, what shall we say, more
        severe with their Jews than they had hitherto been willing
        to be, and in particular to allow them to be deported out
        of Hungary?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That is correct, is it not?
   A.   Since the summer of 1942.
   Q.   Yes.  So is it right that one of the topics discussed
        between Hitler and Admiral Horthy on 16th and 17th April
        1943 was the Nazis' position that they thought that the
        Hungarians ought to buck their ideas up about getting rid
        of Jews from Hungary?

.          P-34

   A.   The Nazis regarded the Hungarians as dragging their feet
        on this issue.
   Q.   Yes.  Were the proceedings at those meetings recorded by a
        plan called Otto Schmidt?
   A.   No.  They were recorded by a man called Paul Schmidt.
   MR RAMPTON:  Sorry, wrong man.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   Both are right.  Paul Otto Schmidt.
   MR RAMPTON:  We are both right, Mr Irving, for once.  Isn't
        that nice.
   A.   There were two Paul Schmidts, and also they were recorded
        by hidden microphones on disk.
   Q.   Yes.  The discussions were reproduced in a book by
        somebody called Hillgruber, were they not?
   A.   The Schmidt records were microfilmed by a German Foreign
        Office official called Lersch, to whom Professor Donald
        Watt referred.  Thanks to the Lersch microfilms we have
        that transcript, and they were printed by Professor
        Andreas Hillgruber in two volumes.
   Q.   Can I then please pass up two pages?  Actually, it is four
        pages, but they are double pages, from Professor
        Hillgruber reprinting of these.  My Lord, bureaucrats are
        at work!
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think the bureaucrats are probably right.
        Otherwise I am going to get completely submerged with
   MR RAMPTON:  That is for Mr Irving.  (Same handed) That is a

.          P-35

        Hungary file.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we give it a letter of the alphabet
        rather than Hungary?  It has one already.  Is there going
        to be a translation, Mr Rampton?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  The translation appears on page 441 of
        Professor Evans' report, the first page that I intend to
        refer to.
                  Professor Evans' translation given on page 441
        at paragraph 1, in the English begins "On Horthy's retort,
        what should he do with the Jews then ...", that is to be
        found in the middle of the German on the left hand column
        at page 256 of the original, "Auf die Gegenfrage Horthys",
        does it not, Mr Irving?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Could you please read from "Auf die Gegenfrage Horthys"
        down to the end of the first paragraph on the following
        page 257?  I do not mean read out loud.  Just read them to
        yourself and tell us please when you have finished doing
   A.   (Pause for reading)  Yes.
   Q.   Would you then look, please, at the translation in
        Professor Evans' report in paragraphs 1 and 3?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you agree that Professor Evans has accurately
        translated the words in the German from after "Auf die
        Gegenfrage Horthys" down to "Moglichkeit gabe es nicht"?

.          P-36

        That is the exchange between Horthy and the Reichs Hausen
        minister Ribbentrop.
   A.   Yes.

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