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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day013.04

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day013.04
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR RAMPTON:  It does not exist, Mr Irving?
   A.   It may not be a signal.  It may be what Karl Wolff
        reported.  Karl Wolff was with him at that time.  I
        referenced Karl Wolff in footnote 43 which your
        Evans has overlooked.
   Q.   The first reference you give -- I am only going to ask
        this once more -- is 3052, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The reader will suppose that that is a reference to
        text of the Heydrich telex?

.          P-28

   A.   Well, no.  The 43 refers to everything from the
        of that paragraph, "What of Himmler and Hitler?"
   Q.   Mr Irving, the reference you give for the Heydrich
        is 3052, is it not?
   A.   One of the two references, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  It so happens that the true Heydrich telex is
   A.   It so happens that a Heydrich telex is 3051.
   Q.   It so happens that 30512 has nothing whatever to do
        Reichskristallnacht at all?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What do you think is the probability -- that had you
        other document which has disappeared which had the
        No. 3052 on it?
   A.   My documents have not disappeared.  As you are
        I have given all my documents to the German archives.
        I have provided to you what relics I have, what
        I have, of my document collection.
   Q.   Well, now I would offer you the same opportunity,
        Mr Irving, as you kindly offered to us.  You find 3052
        the text of a Heydrich telex which carries the
        which you have put in the book.
   A.   Well, perhaps if you have the Karl Wolff's statement
        the Institute files No. 317, then you will find
        the content that I referred to.
   Q.   Can we move on now, please?
   A.   If you thought I was wrong, you would have actually

.          P-29

        produced to the court 317, the Karl Wolff statement,
        said, "Mr Irving, can you find that in 317?"
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are perfectly entitled to do that
        yourself, but it does not, I think it is fair to say,
        Mr Rampton's point which is that one of your
references is
   A.   One of the references has a digit wrong, this is
   Q.   And the ball, if I may say so, is in your court to
        the document that you say is 3052.
   A.   If I can do so, having given all my records away, this
        true, but I shall certainly attempt to do so.
   MR RAMPTON:  Now, Mr Irving, I want to come to the
aftermath of
        Reichskristallnacht.  I want to move on now to the
        aftermath, the next day, starting with Mr Goebbels --
        Dr Goebbels, I do beg his pardon.  Can we start,
        and I promised I would stick Professor Evans and that
        what I am going to, at page 281 of Professor Evans'
        report, please.
   A.   What does he mean by "the inevitable Goebbels diary"?
        Does that not suggest a mind cast on the part of your
        expert in paragraph 1?
   Q.   If you look at paragraph 2, please, Mr Irving -- you
        ask Professor Evans any number of questions you like
        subject to his Lordship's control, but I am not going
        answer your questions, I am afraid.  Paragraph 2 on

.          P-30

   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "In his account of the events of 10th November 1938,
        Goebbels wrote:  'New reports rain down the whole
        morning.  I consider with the Fuhrer what measures
        be taken now.  Let the beatings continue or stop them?
        That is now the question'."
                  You, when you wrote about this in your
        book, said:  "Goebbels went to see Hitler to discuss
        to do next.  There is surely an involuntary hint of
        apprehension in the phrase".  Why did you write that?
   A.   I am, first of all, checking to see the original
        text because he has not provided it to us, has he, or
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Check it by all means.  If we have to go
        through it, we will have to go through it, but we are
        trying to avoid doing that.
   A.   Well, the reason for that is the translation of the
   Q.   You can tell us.
   A.   Can you confirm that the word he has used for "now" is
        "nun" but "nunmehr"?
   MR RAMPTON:  I have no idea.
   A.   I am telling you -- I have a pretty good memory of
   Q.   Why does it matter?
   A.   Why does it matter?  Indeed.  So what?  "Nunmehr"

.          P-31

        the hint of apprehension.  "What do we do now?"
   Q.   You translate it in your book -- what you write is 277
        Goebbels:   "As more ugly bulletins rained down on him
        next morning, November 10th 1938, Goebbels went to see
        Hitler to discuss 'what to do next'"?
   A.   Indeed, "nunmehr".
   Q.   What is the apprehension in that?
   A.   Well, if you understood German and you knew the
nuances of
        the German language, and any German sitting in this
        would know there is a difference between the words
        nad "nunmehr".  Am I correct?  Is that the word used?
   Q.   Mr irving, will you answer my question?  Did you
         "He went to discuss with Hitler what to do next"?
   A.   "What to do now" and "what to do next", what is the
        difference?  You explain to the court.
   Q.   It might be right if the phraseology were apt to
        the impression, "Oh, dear.  Whatever shall we do now?"
        that is not what you translated it as?
   A.   I am trying to give the difference between "now",
        "nun" and "nunmehr", and any German in this courtroom
        will know there is a strong difference.  "Nunmehr"
        "now more than ever" and this, I suspect, is why
        Professor Evans has not provided the original German
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  As a matter of fact, he has.  Note 104,
        282, he says the original German is "nunmehrige" which
        I think is the same as "nunmehr", in fact?

.          P-32

   A.   Well, I wish we had had the entire text, but he has --
   Q.   You are only quarrelling with that one word, as
        I understand it?
   A.   Well, indeed, but there is big difference, of course,
        between "nun" and "nunmehr", and I can only confirm
        any German will confirm this.
   MR RAMPTON:  The German is, Mr Irving -- excuse my
        pronunciation once again, but I will read it slowly..
   A.   What page is the German?
   Q.  "Den ganzen Morgen regnet es neue Meldungen".  End of
        The next line: "Ich uberlege mit dem Fuhrer unsere
        nunmehrigen Masnahmen".  That is "our next measures",
        it not?
   A.   I am looking at the original translation in bundle L2
        page 3, the original German.
   Q.   It is on page 2, I think.
   A.   "Den ganzen Morgen regnet es neue Meldungen ... unsere
        nunmehrigen Masnahmen".  There you are, "nunmehr".
   Q.   Yes, "our next steps"?
   A.   But I have to try to explain once again, because you
        not hesitate also to keep repeating yourself, that
        and "nunmehr" have two totally different nuances.
         "Nunmehr" in German means "now more than ever".
   Q.   What does it mean, "I discussed with the Fuhrer our
   A.  "... unsere nunmehrigen Masnahmen".

.          P-33

   Q.   Yes, "our next steps"?
   A.   Yes, "what steps we should now take more than ever".
   Q.   What is apprehensive about that?
   A.   The adding of the word "mehr" to "nun".
   Q.   Then he goes on:  "Weiterschlagen lassen oder
         "Shall we go on thrshing them or stop" or "Shall we
        the thrashing go on or stop it", yes?  "That is now
   A.   "Weiterschlagen lasen oder abstoppen", that is right.
   Q.   "Das ist nun die Frage"?
   A.   "That is now the question".
   Q.   Exactly.  What is apprehensive about that?
   A.   Because he has been summoned to see the Hitler because
        whole of Germany is in flames, messages coming in from
        diplomatic missions all around the world about it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But they are contemplating letting it go
   A.   Goebbels is contemplating letting it gone on, "What
are we
        going to do now?" This is Goebbels' diary, my Lord,
        Hitler.  Goebbels has been summoned before Hitler like
        schoolboy who has painted something on the wall.
   Q.   Well, who is meant to be being apprehensive?  I took
it to
        be Goebbels.
   A.   Goebbels is apprehensive, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  About what?
   A.   That he had been summoned to see Hitler.  Perhaps I
        sketch in in two lines the background?  Goebbels has

.          P-34

        a very bad for the last six months.  He has been
        red handed in an appalling matrimonial scandal.  He
        been threatened with this missile.  He has
        suicide.  He thought he was doing Hitler a favour with
        this little outrage and, to his horror, he has found
        he has done the exact opposite.  He has been summoned
        before Hitler and Hitler is now showing him the
        messages that have come in.  Within a matter of an
hour or
        two, Goebbels has had to issue a telegram which is on
        very next page, or page 279 of my book produces a
        facsimile:  "Everything is to be stopped immediately.
        the orders I issued yesterday are cancelled".  Am the
        I right?
   Q.   No, you are not right, Mr Irving.  You are not right
        your thesis.  You are right in what that document says
        it is sent to the propaganda chiefs.  All that has
        decided is, well, for the sake of foreign opinion and
        public opinion, we had better stop smashing up Jewish
        shops and killing Jewish people?
   A.   On the contrary, this document which I reproduce in a
        facsimile is sent to precisely the people he ordered
        day before to start all the pogrom.
   Q.   So you say.  We had that argument yesterday ----
   A.   Well, you keep saying "so I say", but I am the one who
        wrote the book.
   Q.   Well, I do say and I do not accept it, Mr Irving.  We

.          P-35

        through it yesterday.  It is quite obvious that I do
        accept it.  It is no good repeating it.  We have been
        through it.  The judge will decide the question and
        see what happened in the next day's diary entry.  If
        pass over to paragraph 4 on the same page, 282 of
Evans --
        the German, if you want it, is on tab 3 of the
        Reichskristallnacht file.  It is the beginning of the
        diary entry, as I expect you know.  "Following this
        conversation with Hitler on morning of 10th, Goebbels
        drafted an order to bring the pogrom to a halt.
        'Yesterday', he wrote on the 11th in his diary,
        There, all proceeded fantastically.  One fire after
        another.  It is good that way.  I prepare an order to
        an amend the actions'".  That is the one you have just
        told us about, Mr Irving.  "'It is now just enough ...
        whole country the synagogues have burned them.  I
        to the Fuhrer at the Osteria'."  The German is printed
        the bottom of the page if you want to look at it.  The
        "Osteria" was a restaurant in Munich, I think, was it
   A.   It is still there, yes.
   Q.   I do not mind.  It was, was it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And if we turn over the page, we can see what Goebbels
        reports of his meeting with Hitler at the Osteria
        sometime, presumably, on the 10th, in paragraph 5 on

.          P-36

        283:  "At the Osteria, Goebbels presented Hitler with
        draft order to stop the pogram.  His diary entry
        continued: 'I report to the Fuhrer in the Osteria.  He
        agrees with everything.  His views are totally radical
        aggressive.  The action itself has taken place without
        problems.  17 dead.  But no German property damaged.
        Fuhrer approves my decree concerning the ending of the
        actions, with small amendments.  I announce it via the
        press and raid.  The Fuhrer wants to take very sharp
        measures against the Jews.  They must themselves put
        businesses in order again.  The insurance companies
        not pay them a thing.  Then the Fuhrer wants a gradual
        expropriation of Jewish businesses"?
   A.   Now, what holes can you pick in my account of that?

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