The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.09

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.09
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Illicit and would you accept the word rather shabby?

.          P-74

   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I just want to be clear about
        this.  Shabby, something not to be proud of, but is it the
        case that is put to Mr Irving that he broke an agreement?
   MR RAMPTON:  It must be, if he uses the word "illicitly", it
        must be that he knows impliedly he does not have
        permission, which is a breach of an agreement.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we ask Mr Irving that.  Did you know that
        what you were doing amounted to breach of an
        agreement ----
   A.   I disagree in view of the fact ----
   Q.   --- with the archivists?
   A.   --- in view of the act that they allowed us to borrow the
        plates anyway, it was obviously neither here nor there to
        them, and there was certainly no agreement either verbal
        or written.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is no written or verbal agreement, but - ---
   A.   On the contrary.
   Q.   --- as I think you told us earlier, no self-respecting
        historian would deliberately remove such valuable material
        from an archive without the permission of the archivist in
        the ordinary way?
   A.   I do not think that I damaged the world of historians one
        bit.  In fact I think I benefited them by having done it
        the way I did.
   Q.   That is not an answer to my question, but it really does

.          P-75

        not matter.  Are you quite certain in your own mind that
        at no stage during the trip of these plates illicitly
        taking plates from Moscow to London, they were in any
        danger of being damaged en route?
   A.   You should have seen the packaging I put them in.
   Q.   Where did you put them, in a suitcase or your hand
   A.   They were put into this hard suitcase down there.
        were heavily wrapped in foam packaging and with layers
        cardboard.  They were safer with me than they had been
        55 years in the Russian archives.
   Q.   Hand luggage?
   A.   Hand luggage, and they were safer with me than they
        been in those flimsy boxes for 55 years with the
        boxes, in which boxes many of the plates were already
   Q.   Had you any idea what means might be used to test the
        plates for authenticity when you got home?
   A.   Yes. It was obvious they were going to test the plates
        glass by probably spectroscopy or by similar non-
        methods, and similarly also the emulsion.  They would
        chosen the part of the emulsion that was not written
        so to speak.
   Q.   Well, in the event the emulsion test was not done for
        of damage, that is right, is it not?
   A.   If you say so.

.          P-76

   Q.   I am only telling you what the Sunday Times tells me
on a
        piece of paper.
   A.   We produced the reports in discovery from Pilkington
        from the laboratories, the photographic laboratories.
        carried out the appropriate or rather the Sunday Times
        carried out the appropriate test.
   Q.   You broke your journey I think in Munich, did you not?
   A.   The flight to Moscow was made from Munich because
        were ----
   Q.   Yes, but did you not break your journey and go to
   A.   On June 9th?
   Q.   Yes.  That was from Moscow?
   A.   No.  On June 9th I flew from Munich to Rome and back.
   Q.   I think it was 13th.  If we look at the diary page
        B10 ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- I think you went on 13th from Munich to Rome and
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Where were the plates when you went to Rome?
   A.   They were with me at all times. No, I am sorry.  I am
        sorry, they were not.  When I went to Rome I carried
        a very small bag with me containing not even my
        typewriter.  It contained just my overnight things for
        stay in the university and then to come back to
        and I left that case in the hotel safe.

.          P-77

   Q.   With the plates in it?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You were not concerned there might be a fire or
        of that kind or are the safes fireproof?
   A.   Well, that thought did not cross my mind admittedly.
   Q.   While you were in Munich, can you turn the page to
        four paragraphs down ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- you say that you phoned Susie, that is Susie
        from airport?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.  "Book me into ... room 727.  7 p.m. back down to her
        phoned Altans."  Who is Altans?
   A.   He is a young German hot head.
   Q.   What do you mean by a "hot head"?
   A.   He turned out to be a hot head.
   Q.   What is a hot head in this context?
   A.   A typical -- a political hot head.  He started off
        level and respectable, but he gradually flaked out.
   Q.   In which direction does his hot headedness lead him?
   A.   Well, over the map really.  He was right-winger, he
was a
        left-winger.  He went to Israel.  He ended up in the
        of the German Intelligence services.  It is difficult
        fix him on the map at all.
   Q.   Was he on the right at this stage in history?
   A.   I do not know what you would call the right.

.          P-78

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If he is arranging a big meeting for
        Zundel, it is fair to say he is not on the left.
   MR RAMPTON:  Put it this way, anything ----
   A.   I think he was a revisionist.  I think that is a fair
        to pin on him.
   Q.   Certainly I would accept that he was a revisionist.
        "on the right" I mean somebody who would not approve
        coloured immigration into Germany or anywhere else in
   A.   I do not think he would actively advocate it.
   Q.   "He is delighted to hear my voice.  Has arranged a big
        meeting for Ernst Zundel." That is our old friend from
        Toronto, is it not?
   A.   I cannot see any reference in this paragraph to
   Q.   No.  I ask you a question.  You have answered it.
        arranged a big meeting for Ernst Zundel"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That is our old friend from Toronto, is it not?
   A.   That is correct, yes.
   Q.   "To address this evening at the Zunfthouse restaurant.
        Would I come and speak too.  Answer:  Provided you
        three boxes of my books along to sell", and then you
        the wry note, "All's well that ends well."
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Did Mr Zundel speak at this meeting?

.          P-79

   A.   I do not know.
   Q.   Why?  You were there.
   A.   Well, I have a record or a habit of not bothering to
        attend other people's speeches if I can possibly avoid
        and if I have had an exhausting day flying down to
        and back I would not have hung around to listen to
        somebody speaking.
   Q.   I am not sure I can really accept that answer, I am
   A.   You were not listening what I just said.  I had had an
        exhausting flight down to Rome and back under the
        circumstances you are familiar with and I was not
        to hang around to listen to somebody speak.
   Q.   I am sorry, what time in the evening does Zundel speak
        then or do you not even know that?
   A.   Why should I know after eight years?
   Q.   I will tell you.  Look at the bottom of the page: "8
        taxi Zunfthouse, around 120 people packed into the
        restaurant, much applause, Zundel spoke"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Then after an interval I spoke half an hour on
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You were then when Zundel was speaking?
   A.   I was certainly in the restaurant, but that does not
        to say that I am listening to what he is saying.  If

.          P-80

        know what he has said you can put it to me and I will
        yes, I heard him say this it or not.
   Q.   I have no idea what he said.  I am asking you.  You
   A.   I confirmed from this diary I was in the restaurant.
        is a very big restaurant like a typical German beer
   Q.   Mr Irving, you told us a moment ago that you would not
        have got there in time to here Mr Zundel speak because
        would not have been interested.
   A.   That is not exactly what I said.
   Q.   It is simply false statement.
   A.   I am sorry, I do not make false statements under oath.
        I am careful not to and the words you have used are
        the words I said.  I did not say "I did not get there
        time to hear him speak".
   Q.   You tried to give us the impression you were not there
        when Zundel spoke.
   A.   No.  I gave the impression that if I have had an
        exhausting day flying to Rome and back, exhausting for
        reasons you are familiar with, then I would not have
        around to hear somebody speaking.  I would have gone
        tucked myself down somewhere with a glass of beer or
        a cup of coffee and read the local newspaper.
   Q.   "Then after an interval I spoke half an hour on the
        Goebbels' finds.  I one 'plate'"?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-81

   Q.   What does that mean?
   A.   We had had some prints made, I had had some prints
        that day in the Munich archives I think, in the
   Q.   This is one of the borrowed plates?
   A.   That is correct, yes.
   Q.   That you had printed?
   A.   That is right.  If I put it in quotation marks then
        tells me I did not show the actual glass, but I showed
        print I had made of it.
   Q.   Who took the plates back to Moscow after they had been
        tested in this country?
   A.   It should be evident.  I think it was July 4th or July
        3rd -- July 2nd the two slides were legally borrowed
        returned by Sasha during the date of the archives.
   Q.   Can we turn on ----
   A.   "July 3rd at 11.58 a.m. I walked out.  He was seated
in a
        car across the street."  That was Jonathan Bastable
        had arrived from London as a courier bringing the
        from the laboratories.
   Q.   Carry on, will you.
   A.   Still July 3rd:  At 11.58 a.m. I walked out.  He was
        seated in a car across the street.  He handed the
        plates back to me.  I asked him to conduct the
        requested by Andrew Neil re the authenticity of the
        provenance of the microfiche".  In other words, he was
        speak with the Russian archivists to ask what they

.          P-82

        about where they came from, the glass plates.
   Q.   I will read the next bit if you are not willing to.
   A.   I beg your pardon?
   Q.   I wanted you to read the next paragraph.  It is my
   A.   "I replaced the two plates, March to September 1934,
        the box of 13, making a total of 15.  Unfortunately,
        archivist told me today that the archives will not
        their new agreement with 'the Germans' let me see the
        other big boxes again.  Operation stable door, I
        have nearly all that was necessary".
   Q.   I can understand that.  It does not need an
        So you put back the two plates that you borrowed from
        London, is that right?
   A.   That I borrowed for London and had now come back from
        London and they are put back where they belonged.
   Q.   After about three weeks?
   A.   That is correct.
   Q.   We will go, if we may, to the bottom of the page at
   A.   "At 1.50 p.m. archivist asked me outside into the
        and with embarrass asked me if I had taken plates out
        the collection.  I replied that we had borrowed plates
        with permission but had returned all those that we had
        borrowed intact."
   Q.   That was not true, was it?
   A.   Well, it was, I suppose, suppressio vale rather than
        suppressio falsi.  I have no original items from their

.          P-83

        collection in my possession.  Only the copies we or
        had made.  I then voluntarily hand wrote a declaration
        stating this and had it translated into Russian and
        both text and took a photocopy.
   Q.   So, technically speaking, that was true of course.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you know the legal, it is a boring expression, but
        you know the lawyers' expression swearing by the card?
   A.   Swearing by?
   Q.   The card?
   A.   No.  That is legalese.

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