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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.13

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.13
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   And after the letter at the end of that line is a letter G?

.          P-91

   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That indicates the file
only has a secret rating?
   A.   It would certainly
indicate that this particular number
        has a secret rating.
   Q.   Just above his signature
at the bottom of the document,
        again ----
   A.   We have the same file
number, yes.
   Q.   We have a similar file
number, again with just the letter
        G.  So the whole thing they are talking and
writing about
        is only G Geheim?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Would you be adventurous
enough to hang a hypothesis on a
        document like that, or would you want to couch
        hypothesis in the most guarded language and say
this might
        quite possibly refer to the killing operations, on
        other hand the document contains no specific
        Would that be the way you would write it as a
   A.   I would say that it has a
reference to the work of the
        Einsatzgruppen, and that we should interpret this
        referring to all of the activities of the
        Because we have seen the reports, we know that
        killing, but someone looking at this letter from
        outside would not know that.
   Q.   Yes.  Have you any reason
to believe that Hitler was shown
        photographs of the killing operations?

.          P-92

   A.   I do not know.
   Q.   Were there placards
connected with the killing operations
        saying, you are to assemble at such and such a
   A.   There were such placards
put up, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you give me an idea?  It
is really the
        scale of the thing.  These Einsatzgruppen at this
        because we are talking about August 41, you may
not be
        able to answer this, what proportion of their
duties did
        shooting people occupy?
   A.   As of August 1 they would
be just going into the
        transition of killing adult male Jews of
        potential leadership classes, towards a policy of
        systematic extermination.  So at this point, if I
can use
        that unfortunate phrase, the body count would
still be
        lower than the documents that come from the fall
of 1941.
        The Jager, report for instance, shows August 15 as
        astronomical jump from selected killing to massive
        of women and children.  We have another letter
        Lithuania, it is not part of this file, that says
        August 7th they are shooting all Jews.  So this is
        preceding that point by just a few days.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So, in a way, that is
equivocal.  It could
        mean from the date of this letter the information
        necessarily going to include details of the
numbers shot
        because the extermination programme is being
   A.   That would be an
interpretation we placed on it, based on

.          P-93

        our inferences from the point of time, the
chronology, a
        possible interpretation.
   Q.   Yes.  The opposite
contention would be they have not
        actually been spending a huge amount of time doing
        awful shootings?
   A.   Most of the shootings are
reported in the hundreds at this
        point as opposed to the thousands and hundreds of
   Q.   So it is equivocal?
   MR IRVING:  Not only that.  I think that
Professor Browning is
        right. I believe the first intercepts were mid
        onwards, were they not, when they began reporting
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what he said.
   MR IRVING:  I draw Professor Browning's
attention once more to
        the subject line of that document.  The document
is only
        concerning provision of visual materials?
   A.   Yes, but the reason for
the procurement of visual
        materials is to supplement the fact that the
Fuhrer is
        receiving regular reports.  So we learn from a
        document about the procurement of visual
materials, an
        existing policy of Hitler receiving current
   Q.   Can you -- I am not an
expert on the
        Reichssicherheitshauptamt and I am not sure how
much are
        you, but can you draw any conclusions from the
        number, shall we say, it is (iv), that was the

.          P-94

   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then we have A1.  Now,
Eichmann was A something was he
   A.   It changes over time.  At
one point I think it is 4B4,
        that is the most common designation.
   Q.   That is right.  Eichmann
was 4B4.  So what would 4A1 be?
        Have you any idea?
   A.   My guess is that it is the
secretary, the administrative
        centre.  This would be his own personal office.  I
do not
        have an office plan.  One could find that out with
        office plan.
   Q.   A logical question arises
from this document. Have you
        anywhere in any of the archives in which you have
        seen any documents generated by this request,
        incoming to Muller from the Eastern Front or going
        Berlin to Hitler in consequence of this?
   A.   I have not seen any
collections of photos that are marked
        as in reference to our order of August 1, these
should be
        sent to the Fuhrer.  I have not seen such a thing.
   Q.   Are there any collections
of documents or placards or
        things relating to shootings on the Eastern Front
        were sent to Hitler?
   A.   I do not ----
   Q.   Either demonstrably or
otherwise in connection with this
   A.   I do not know of any
evidence of particular photos or

.          P-95

        placards that were sent.
   Q.   How many such reports on
the work of the Einsatzgruppen
        were actually sent to Hitler that we know of?
   A.   We do not know.
   Q.   Have we seen any at all in
the archives?
   A.   We have seen various ones
that are sent to different
        places but none of them are marked as a copy that
was sent
        to the Fuhrer's headquarters or whatever, no.
   Q.   Apart from the famous
Meldung number 51?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Of December 1942?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Which we will come to in
chronological sequence.  My Lord,
        do you have any further questions on that August
        document?  It is quite important.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.  I think you have dealt
with it very
   A.   Can I add something?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes of course.
   A.   This is an example of a
document that was available in the
        West fairly early.  Gerald Fleming quotes it in
his book
        which was published I guess in 1982.  It is found
in the
        Zentralstelle.  This is when they got there.  They
        the copy to the Institute.  The copy he cites here
is the
        copy in the Bundeschei.  So there are at least
        copies of this in Germany.

.          P-96

   MR IRVING:  Professor, would you agree that it
is difficult to
        form an opinion just on a loose sheet of paper
like this?
        You want to see the file it is in, is that
   A.   We would always prefer to
see the whole file.  I do not
        turn my back on an individual document because it
is not
        everything that I would wish.
   Q.   Would you also agree that,
when you see a document like
        that, you should not jump up and down and say,
        this is the philosopher's stone I have been
looking for.
   A.   I would be cautious not to
yell Eureka, yes.
   Q.   So historians in this
respect are somewhat different from
        leading counsel, would you suspect?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, Mr Irving.  Next question.
   MR IRVING:  On the question of the body count
figures, because
        of course I am very concerned about the totals
that are
        contained in these documents, is there any paper
        leading to the figures, or are these figures --
        figures are credible because we have seen the
        paperwork that went into them?
   A.   We have, for instance, the
Jager report that goes in a
        sense from one Einsatzkommando to Stahlecker and
then we
        have Stahlecker's reports, so we do have the
        block there.  We do not have a lot of what we
would call
        the lower level papers from the Einsatzkommandos.
We have
        some of the documents from the Gendarme Marie,
such as the
        Brestotoft document that we have looked at.

.          P-97

   Q.   How confident can we be
that every time one of these
        reports refers to so many thousand Jews being
killed they
        are actually Jews who are being killed?
   A.   We have enough cases in
which I think other evidence can
        corroborate that I am fairly confident.  That is
not in
        exact numbers but that there was a policy to carry
        large executions, and that these are not numbers
that are
        wildly off, or that they are being faked, in the
sense of
        they are not being real executions being under
   Q.   Was there not a tendency
among the Nazis just to lump all
        the people that are killed together as Jews,
knowing that
        this kind of report would be particularly welcomed
by the
        authorities in Berlin?
   A.   The Jager report shows
that he was very careful in fact to
        identify Jewish men, Jewish women and children,
and then
        other categories.  A number of the Einsatzgruppen
        at different times, not in the global figures but
        say, summarizing the past two weeks, we will break
        so many saboteurs, so many communist
functionaries, so
        many mentally ill and so many Jews.  The tendency
seems to
        be, at least on some occasions, to indicate that
they are
        being fairly careful about separating and keeping track of
        their victims by category.

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