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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.21

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.21
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   The fourth one is a considerable alleviation of the later
        transporting away of the Jews into a Jewish
        somewhere outside of Europe?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So all of these are a much
more modest form of the Final
        Solution, are they not, not involving killing,
        proposed here by the man who drafted the document?
   A.   He lists those as four
possibilities.  We know, of course,
        from two things down below he says this all
touches on
        orders and Jager, within a week, is killing all
women and
        children and ----
   Q.   You are ----
   A.   --- Stahlecker's own
report later ----
   Q.   You are rushing ahead.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are rushing ahead.  Just
pause a minute.

.          P-153

   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am only relying on this
document purely
        to show that whoever drafted the document (and the
        Professor will tell us in a moment who it was) the
        the typescript draft, is making certain proposals
of a
        very general and non-lethal form for the treatment
of the
        Jewish problem in the occupied Russian areas.
   MR IRVING:  And that there is then a very
important handwritten
        comment by Stahlecker on which I rely.  I will
read out
        the handwritten comment in German first.  "Ich
halte es
         ... (reading to the words in German - document
        provided)... Stahlecker".  Does Stahlecker in that
        complicated final paragraph, that postscript by
him, his
        comment, does he refer to the fact that this
        with oral orders ----
   A.   I think he is saying ----
   Q.   --- which have been given
by a superior agency to him?
   A.   Yes, as I interpret it, he
is saying the guidelines
        prepared by the local civil administration ----
   Q.   Which is the typed
guidelines here?
   A.   No, no.  This is his
critique of the typed guidelines.
        The typed guidelines are a different document.
This is
        his letter to Jager who is to talk to the people
who have
        drawn up the guidelines, and that this is his
rejection of
        those guidelines.  He says there should not be any
        guidelines until we have discussed this orally,

.          P-154

        particularly as they touch upon oral orders that
from the,
        you know, that cannot be put in writing.
   Q.   All orders from a von
hochster Stelle?
   A.   Yes, from above.
   Q.   Not just from above.
   A.   Or from a higher ----
   Q.   A higher plain.  Have you
ever heard Adolf Hitler referred
        to as a higher plain in documents?
   A.   No, it would be highest.
   Q.   I beg your pardon?
   A.   He would be highest.
   Q.   Thank you very much.  That
is the answer I wanted.  I know
        it is not very helpful for the Defence, but the
        answer is of course it would be von hochster
Stelle, would
        it not?
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry to intervene, I am not
saying this is
        disorderly cross-examination.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is far from being that.  I
think it is
        extremely orderly.
   MR RAMPTON:  I agree, but it seems to be heading
in what
        I regard as a impermissible direction.  On 17th
        this is the fourth day of the trial, page 94, the
        cross-examination went like this, line 8: "This is
        evidence that Hitler gave authority" ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you want me to follow, the
   MR RAMPTON:  Day 4, my Lord, page 94.  This is
why I intervene

.          P-155

        now, because I expressed a fear this morning that
this is
        what was going to happen.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  Page 94.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 94, my Lord, lines 7 to 16.  I
will read it
        out in case Mr Irving has not got his transcript
        I will start at line 8, if I may: "This is
evidence that
        Hitler gave authority for the massacre at least2.
   MR IRVING:  Who is speaking?
   MR RAMPTON:  I.  "This is evidence that Hitler
gave authority
        for the massacre at least", interruption by Mr
Irving, "of
        Jews".  I finish the question because I meant to
        precise:  "Of Jews in the East?"  Answer:  "Yes".
        Question: "Yes".  Then there is something about
        Longerich.  Mr Irving says: "I do not think there
is any
        dispute between the parties on this".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am just wanting to see the
document that is
        being discussed.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, that may not matter, may
it, with
        respect, in the light of what I have just said?
        partisan als and auszurotten is what I was asking
        questions about.
   MR IRVING:  Have we not moved on from that
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  With respect, my question was
this: "This is
        evidence that Hitler gave authority for the
massacre of
        Jews in the East?"  "Yes. I do not think there is

.          P-156

        dispute between the parties on this."
   MR IRVING:  That is absolutely right, but the
question is, my
        Lord, under what title the Jews were being killed,
        they were being killed in this connection as Jews
or as
   MR RAMPTON:  "The massacre of the Jews in the
East?  Yes".
   MR IRVING:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  With Hitler's authority.
   MR IRVING:  Both statements are obviously
correct.  I am very
        sorry you interrupted me at the point where I was
        this very important point about con hochster
Stelle, from
        the highest level.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not worry about that.  If
Mr Rampton is
        right, and at the movement it appears to me that
he may
        well be, you would appear to have conceded quite
        that Hitler did indeed give authority for the
massacre of
        Jews in the East.  That, after all, is what you
        presently cross-examining Professor Browning
   MR IRVING:  I do hesitate to cavil about words,
but whether he
        gave authority for the massacre of Jews or of the
Jews is
        what would be the issue here.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not going to hold you to
what you said
        in the course of cross-examination, but I think it
        right to observe that you are, I think, shifting
        ground because you did appear to concede without
        qualification that it was Hitler who gave the

.          P-157

        for the massacre of the Jews in the East quite
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I do not have the text in
front of me.
   MR IRVING:  But from what was read out it
appears that it was
        an exchange rather than a considered statement.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is true.
   MR IRVING:  With interruptions and "yes" and
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not going, as I say, to
pin you down by
        reference to an answer you gave in the course of
        exchange.  So carry on, but I think it is fair to
        Mr Rampton's intervention was well-founded.
   MR IRVING:  So I will just have to wind back
about 30 seconds,
        so to speak.  We were looking at the handwritten
        by Stahlecker.  He is referring to orders that
have been
        given from a higher level to the Security Police,
        are being affected by this new draft.
                  My question to you was, can von hochster
        or from a higher level ever refer to an order from
        Hitler?  Your reply was, I think you said it would
be from
        the highest level if it was a reference to Hitler?
   A.   If he was getting a direct
order, this is an order that
        comes from higher authority.
   Q.   At which point Mr Rampton
decided to interrupt.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, and there was a very good
reason for it, if
        I may say so.  I do not want to spend a lot of
time in
        this court at my clients' expense listening to

.          P-158

        cross-examination that leads nowhere.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think the position, and you
can correct me,
        Mr Irving, if I am wrong about this, is that you
have made
        the concession, and I think that is the right
word, that
        Hitler gave authority for massacre of Jews in the
        That does not prevent you from saying when you are
        confronted with this document Stahlecker note that
as far
        as this document, Stahlecker's note, that as far
as that
        document goes, that is talking about orders from
        authority other than Hitler.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, it will come as no surprise
to you, I am
        sure, to realize by now that it is not going to be
easy to
        untangle the thicket of conflicting authorities
        responsibilities that led to this appalling crime
on the
        Eastern Front, and we are not going to find any
        chain of command.
   MR IRVING:  Or any simple written order, and
that there will be
        apparent contradictions where people at one area
        acting in one way and there is someone else acting
        another way.  We have to look for clues as to
        people's intentions lie.
   MR IRVING:  So that is the only use I wish to
make of that
        particular document.
   A.   Can I add something to

.          P-159

   Q.   Sure.
   A.   If we look at Stahlecker's
report of October 15, 1941,
        which is page 23, paragraph 4.3.10, of those four
        solutions that he lists he clearly embraces the
first and
        claims, and I quote:  "It was expected from the
start that
        the Jewish problem would not be solved solely
        pogroms.  On the other hand, the goal of the
        Police cleansing work according to basic orders
was the
        most complete removal possible of the Jews.
        executions in the cities and flat lands were
        carried out through special units." In that sense
of these
        four we have another document that shows
Stahlecker purely
        understood his task as to be the first of those four

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