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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.23

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.23
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   He claimed he got it from Eichmann.  Was Hoertel
        prosecuted at all in any way at the end of the war for his
        role as a member of the Gestapo?
   A.   I do not know, but I have
certainly not come across him as
        having been involved in the Final Solution.  But
there are
        many people ----
   Q.   Did he give evidence in
Nuremberg on behalf of the Allies?
   A.   That again I cannot say.
   Q.   Will you go to page 16 of
your report, please, paragraph
        4.2.8?  Can we have a look at the source document
for that
        one, please?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it page 78?
   MR IRVING:  I beg your pardon?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure it is, but it
might be.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  Your Lordship is way ahead of
us.  Would you
        go to page 2 of that transcript which again is
        unfortunately in German, but I wanted to draw your
        attention to the bottom three lines.  Am I right
in saying
        it says that two categories of Jews are to be
        distinguished from each other?
   A.   Yes.  This is a document I
believe that relates to Minsk
        and the other heading a Russian Jewish ghetto and
a German
        Jewish ghetto, that they had a very strict
separation in
   Q.   Yes, and that these Jews,
the Nazis had to distinguish

.          P-169

        between these two categories of Jews ----
   A.   In this case ----
   Q.   --- once they began the
killings when the ground thawed?
   A.   I am not sure if I
understand the question.
   Q.   Well, the question is that
they made once again a
        distinction between killing Russian Jews and the
        of German Jews at this Minsk conference?
   A.   They made a distinction
between them, but they are
        virtually all killed within six months.  So it is
        distinction that delayed the executions not a very
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the point of the
distinction in that
   A.   They are kept in different
ghettoes at the moment is one
        thing, and I believe, as you see from document, I
        they consider the work skills of the German Jews
would be
        viewed as higher and therefore would be kept
longer.  It
        goes on to say that Russian Jews, the following
        after separation, it says: "Russian Jews are of a
        nature and unwilling to work.  The German Jews
work with
        much more vigour and they believe after victory
that they
        will return to the old Reich".  This is the result
        having sent these people with in the fall with all
        their Gerat, their utensils and suitcases and
   Q.   You quote in your report a
passage about a complete

.          P-170

        liquidation of the Jews not possible to due to the
   MR RAMPTON:  It is the bottom of page 2, my
Lord, above the
        little letters (a) and (b).
   A.   Yes, the quote I made
ends, and then they say there are
        two categories to distinguish German and Russian,
and then
        they explain that the German Jews are much better
        than the Russian Jews, and that is a reason why
        would be differentiated treatment.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, again this may be a
document which it
        would repay having rather more translated of.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think in view of the point
Mr Irving has
        just made, that would probably be right.
   MR RAMPTON:  I think that must be right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  We now come to a rather sensitive
area which your
        Lordship may feel is not relevant, and this is the
        question to what extent did the local population
        participate in or even instigate the killings of
Jews on
        the Eastern Front, the Russian front and in the
        countries, and to what extent were they themselves
        murderers?  In other words, what percentage of the
        killings were their responsibility and what
        went on to the Nazis?
   A.   That is the question you
would like my affirmation on?
   Q.   Yes.

.          P-171

   A.   In terms of the pogroms
that is something that was a brief
        phenomenon in the very opening days of the war,
        instigated by the Germans, sometimes starting
   Q.   Are we talking about the
Eastern Front or the Baltic
   A.   Both.  Baltic countries is
part I would say of the Eastern
        Front.  More success, I guess more pogroms in some
        of the Ukraine and Lithuania than -- here I do not
        the detail of where the pogroms occurred, but
clearly they
        were supported and instigated by the Germans.  How
        were spontaneous would take a research that I have
        gone into.  What is more important is that by late
        Himmler has approved the formation of auxiliary
        units, that these police units reach about 30,000
by the
        end of 1941, about 300,000 by the end of 1942, and
        comprise one of the major manpower sources for why
a small
        number of Einsatzgruppen ----
   Q.   And they were not all
engaged killing though, were they?
   A.   No.  Many are in police
stations, but they are at one
        point when it comes the day to kill the Jews in
        region, often it is the local police that would be
part of
        the liquidation process.  They do not move about.
        do.  There are two concepts:  The ones kept in
        stations and then there are the mobile battalions.
   Q.   If I introduce the concept
of the interregnum between the

.          P-172

        time that the Soviet troops pulled out of the
        countries and the Nazi troops arrive, a period of,
        one or two weeks?
   A.   I am not sure that it was
that long in many places.
   Q.   Was there much killing
went on in that time?
   A.   That would have
represented an infinitesimal fraction of
        the total number of Soviet Jews killed.
   Q.   You are not familiar with the private diary Otto Reutigang?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, before you go further, is this
        your best point?  If there really were 300,000 of these
        people, Nazi ----
   MR IRVING:  Auxiliaries.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- auxiliaries, how far are you going to get
        with the idea that it was the local population that was
        either participating or instigating.
   MR IRVING:  I appreciate your objection, my Lord.  I will not
        press that matter any further.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Press on if you want, but it
seems me it is
        not perhaps a particularly good point.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I have come to the end of
my preparations
        for today's cross-examination.  With respect, I
would ask
        that, unless Mr Rampton has any further points to
make, we
        will adjourn now.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I told you I will give you as
much latitude
        as you reasonably want.  You have gone quite

.          P-173

        expeditiously.  So, Mr Rampton, you do not object
   MR RAMPTON:  I am absolutely relaxed about that.
I would like
        to know because I have to get Professor Evans
        whether we will finish with Professor Browning
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sensible timetabling.
   MR IRVING:  I think we will finish with
Professor Browning
   MR RAMPTON:  In that case, I will prepare to
have Professor
        Evans here for Thursday.
   MR IRVING:  I might want possibly one or two
hours more on
        Thursday, but it is certainly not to inconvenience
        Professor Evans.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  One or two more hours more on
Thursday with
        Professor Browning?
   MR IRVING:  If I have not quite finished with
him by then.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am just wondering whether he
is not wanting
        to go off somewhere else.
   MR RAMPTON:  He wants to go back home to
America.  So if he is
        not finished tomorrow, which is Tuesday, I would
ask that
        he could be finished on Wednesday morning.
   MR IRVING:  I was thinking Wednesday morning,
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What we will do, Mr Irving, is
we will carry
        on on Wednesday.  Do not worry, you will get your
day, but
        it may be a split day, if you follow me, a day's
time for
        preparing Evans.

.          P-174

   MR IRVING:  It makes sense for me to prepare
properly the way I
        have for today.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course.  In the end it
saves time which is
        why I think it is perfectly sensible.
   MR IRVING:  Unless Mr Rampton wishes to cross-
examine him now
        on some of the points I have made.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Re-examine.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I would not dream of cross-
examining, even if
        I were allowed to.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I would let you, but I
do not think it
        is actually sensible.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is one little problem about
        Evans.  It probably does not matter enormously
        I can use Friday with remaining cross-examination
        Mr Irving.  Professor Evans has rearranged
        because he thought we were not sitting on Friday.
So he
        has, as it were, pushed everything into that one
day.  So
        even if he was started on Thursday I would ask him
to be
        released for the Friday.  Friday will not be
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, do you have a view
about that?
   MR IRVING:  No, my Lord.  I am in your
Lordship's hands.  I am
        much more relaxed than I was last week.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The overall progress has
actually been quite
   MR RAMPTON:  Very good.  My hope is that we are
actually going
        to save about a month of the estimate, which means

.          P-175

        might get a little time off to write our closing
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That may have been partly to
due to a bit of
        prereading.  It did save a bit of time.  Then we
will have
        Evans on Thursday and resume him on Monday.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, you must not forget that I
have one more
        witness to call and that is Dr John Fox.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You tell me when it is
convenient for you to
        call him.
   MR IRVING:  I will arrange with the Defence on a
date for that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, discuss it together.
10.30 tomorrow.

                  (The witness stood down).  
(The court adjourned until the following day)

.          P-176

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