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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day017.06

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day017.06
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR IRVING:  I have not come across them in this witness report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Paragraph 4.2.1, I thought it was.
   A.   I may have mentioned them briefly.
   MR IRVING:  I would have remembered them if -- I think they
        must be in the Longerich report, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is in Longerich.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is certainly there, but this is
        guideline, is it not, at 4.21?
   A.   4.2.1, the Heydrich order of July 2rd, which we
        yesterday, is his summary to the higher SS and police
        leaders of his oral instructions to the Einsatzgruppen
        leaders on June 17th, five days before the invasion.
        is when he includes among those to be shot will be
Jews in
        state and party positions.
   MR IRVING:  This is the document your Lordship wanted
        translated yesterday.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  These are guidelines at that stage?
   A.   Yes.  This is the guidelines of early July -- in fact,
        guidelines of late June, prior to the invasion,
because he
        is summarising what was already given to the
        Einsatzgruppen on the eve of the invasion.
   MR IRVING:  This is Heydrich, of course, who is two or
        rungs down the hierarchy, is he not?
   A.   Very close to Himmler.
   Q.   Yes.  The question, witness, which I asked you just
        that little discursive, are you familiar with the

.          P-47

        planning documents or working papers that led to these
        three documents we were just talking about, the
        guidelines, not these ones, but the May 19th
   A.   I have, I think, briefly seen in the Hans Adolf
        study his account of the emergence of the Commissart
        and the Krasvnik(?) article on the emergence of the
        military jurisdiction order.  I have not worked on
        in the archives, but I have seen other historians'
        of those two particular cases.
   Q.   Are you familiar with the private diary of General
        Halder, the Chief of the German Army General Staff?
   A.   Yes, I have read parts of that.
   Q.   Would you agree that in that private diary, which was
        written by him in shorthand (so it was of a very
        confidential nature) it emerges that the German Army
        the source of the inspiration for those documents, in
        other words, it did not come from Hitler down to the
        it went from the German Army effectively up to Hitler
        up to the German High Command, they wanted ----
   A.   I cannot say that that was my impression from Halder,
        I would have to disagree in the sense that we have
        Hitler/Jodl conversation in early March, in which Jodl
        then comes back to the Generals and says, "Hitler
wants us
        to do something in terms of the" ----
   Q.   The Commissarts?
   A.   --- "Commissarts" and the negotiations over the
shaping of

.          P-48

        the military jurisdiction order comes I think from a
        similar instigation from above, that the Army is not
to be
        involved in disciplining the behaviour of troops
        the civilian population which previously would have
        primed under martial law.
   Q.   Would you identify Jodl to the court, please?
   A.   Jodl is, if I get it right, the Chief of Staff of the
   Q.   Was he Chief of the Operations Staff at the German
   A.   High Command, not the Army, the Arm Forces High
        the global one.
   Q.   And if Hitler, as Supreme Commander, was having this
        discussion with the Chief of Staff of the German High
        Command, then it must have been a discussion of a
        nature rather than ideological nature?
   A.   Not if he wants the Army to take part in and not to be
        problem concerning this war of destruction.  If the
        military is to take part in a wider kind of war, not
        conceive of this war is a war like they fought against
        French, and that they are to remove themselves from or
        give to their own officers a new understanding that
        certain kinds of behaviour, the troops will no longer
        subject to the jurisdiction of military court martial
        will not be criminalized.  Now, this has to go to the
        Army.  But that certainly cannot be said to be ----

.          P-49

   Q.   But this is the military discipline?
   A.   Yes, but it is an issue of military discipline that is
        completely related to the notion of this wider war of
        destruction.  It is not compartmentalized to military
        operations but to the ideological war.
   Q.   Is it not likely, in fact, that Hitler would have
        discussions with the German High Command on the
        side of the problem and he would have similar
        with Himmler on the ideological side of the problem,
        these documents only refer, therefore, to the military
        side of the problem.
   A.   I disagree totally.  That certainly is the postwar
plea of
        the German Generals of self-exculpation, but I think
        documents we see is that he makes very clear to the
        Generals that this a multi-dimensional war, and that
        does not compartmentalize.  He wants the Army to
        its multiple court martial code.  He wants the Army to
        take part in the finding of the Commissarts and either
        shooting them or turning them over to the SS, that he
        not compartmentalize this war.
   Q.   We so far have not mentioned one very important
        that took place around this time after Barbarossa,
        is the conference of July 16th 1941.  You are familiar
        with this?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If there is a document, can we go -- I am
        quite keen to pick up these points and not deal with

.          P-50

        them  ----
   MR IRVING:  It certainly be referenced by Longerich.  It is
        referenced by this witness in his report, but it is
        with which he is quite familiar, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It does not make it any easier, but if we
        identify and locate these documents.
   MR IRVING:  I was going to ask one question on this
        really which is -- are you familiar with the
conference to
        which I am referring?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is for my benefit rather than yours
        Professor Browning's.
   MR IRVING:  Are you familiar with the conference to which I
   A.   This is July 16th conference?
   Q.   July 16th.  Hitler, Rosenberg, Martin Bormann wrote a
        memorandum on it?
   A.   Lammers, I believe, was present.
   Q.   Lammers was present, Himmler was present?
   A.   No, Himmler is not present.  Himmler met with Hitler
        15th and left for Lublin.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, I am going to ask you to
pause. I
        think I really must have the document, if only a
        to it.
   A.   It is a Nuremberg document.  I think it is L...
   MR RAMPTON:  I can help.  Page 57.  Longerich 1, paragraph

.          P-51

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr Irving,
        I have to try to digest all this and it is easier.
   MR IRVING:  Problem is, my Lord, that both the witness and
        I have all this in our heads.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but it is quite important that you
        it into my head too.
   MR IRVING:  It is not an easy task.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry to hear you say that.
   MR RAMPTON:  If your Lordship wants to see the German?
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, the reason I said this is because it
        taken me 35 years to get it into my head, the whole
   MR RAMPTON:  It has only taken me nine months!  It is 4.2,
        your Lordship would like to see another splodgy German
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It may be that now you have given me the
        reference here, I can follow it up.  Is it paragraph
   MR RAMPTON:  Paragraph 15.7.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then it is in the transcript at least so
        I can go back to it.  Yes, Mr Irving, follow that up
        you want to.
   MR IRVING:  All that I want to say is, I mean, I have no
        where this question and answer is now going to lead.
        may harm, it may help me.  This was a very important,
        level conference deciding areas of responsibility in

.          P-52

        Eastern territories; is that right?
   A.   Immediately after that conference, the next, they
        the Fuhrer decrees delineating the responsibilities of
        Himmler and Rosenberg, the SS and the civil
        for the occupied territories, Soviet territories.
   Q.   And this, effectively, gave Himmler absolutely police
        control over all these regions, is that correct, the
        executive control?
   A.   It put the SS in a very dominant position.
   Q.   In the rear areas?
   A.   Actually, I think it gave him powers -- at least
        Einsatzgruppen already had powers to operate all the
        up to the front, and this established in a sense that
        would become permanent as the SS positions are changed
        from mobile units to a permanent police structure on
        occupied territory.
   Q.   I think that, Professor, you once mentioned that the
        Jewish problem was mentioned in this conference, but
        is not correct, is it?
   A.   I do not think he does mention that.  He does talk
         "shooting anyone who looks askance at us and isn't it
        good that Stalin has called for a guerilla war because
        gives us the pretext", I believe is the word, "to
        anyone that we want?".  I do not believe that I have
        that ----
   Q.   That is a very interesting phrase.  What was the
phrase he

.          P-53

        used?  "It gives us the pretext to shoot"----
   A.   "To shoot anyone who so much as looks askance at us" I
        believe is the ...
   Q.  "Schief schaut"
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The German is there on page 57 if you
want to
        look at the footnote.
   MR IRVING:  Effectively, "Anybody who stands in our way or
        looks like he might stand in our way"?
   A.   Well, it does not even say "stand in our way", "looks
        askance at us", I believe, is a much wider shooting
        licence than "stands in our way".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What does "nur schief schaut" mean?
   MR IRVING:  "Looks askance", literally.
   A.   "Gives us a twisted look" or "looks askance at us".
   MR IRVING:  Anybody whose face does not fit would be
        way of saying it?  It is a pretty broad kind of
   A.   It is an open shooting licence.
   Q.   Yes, but there is no reference to the Jewish problem
   A.   Not a specific reference, no.
   Q.   Yes.  Just that Himmler has now given, effectively,
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   We will deal with that, I think, in more detail, my
        when we come to Longerich?

.          P-54

   A.   You were still asking me my view of the decision-
        process.  Do you wish me to continue?
   MR IRVING:  If you have had after thoughts, yes.  My view
        I would wish you to correct it) is that the German
        provided the impetus for these orders, and that this
        evidenced in the papers of the German High Command
        the position papers are, effectively, written by
        Army officers and also from the diary of General Franz
        Halder.  In other words, that the initiative did not
        from Hitler?
   A.   I would disagree.  I would say that the open
        for these proposals comes from Hitler and, in terms of
        guidelines and policies, it is the response of the SS
        the military and the economic planners to turn into
        reality this vague vision of a war of destruction in
        ideological crusade against the Soviet Union.
   Q.   When you say you disagree, is this just a gut feeling
        do you have any specific document you want to
   A.   I think we have both the Jodl/Hitler meeting and
        response, and we have the meeting of March 30th with
        Generals in which he again makes clear to them his
        to have a war of destruction, a war that is not fought
        the ground rules of a conventional war.
   Q.   The latter meeting is, of course, recorded in detail
        the diary of General Halder, is it not?

.          P-55

   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Again it would help me, rather than just
        having this ----
   MR IRVING:  Interesting discussion.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- debate between the two of you if ----
   A.   That would be 15.3, page 56, of Longerich, again where
        emphasises the dual nature of the war, the struggle of
        world views against one another.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The Jodl/Hitler meeting, can you pinpoint
        that for me?
   A.   March 3rd.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I mean, in terms of where I find a
   A.   15.1.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 55, my Lord.

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