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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day018.02

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day018.02
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   MR RAMPTON:  -- during the course of -- I am going to hand it up.
   MR IRVING:  I am not going to deal with the contents of the
        document.  I understand I will be cross-examined on it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but if you are saying about it, I want to
        look at it so I know what you are talking about.
   MR RAMPTON:  There was a translation at some time.  I do not
        know where that has got to.  It is a report from a place
        called Zanosk which is in Poland of 16th December 1942
        about the transport of some 644 Poles to Auschwitz.  It
        has a real significance so far as, indeed, not just
        Auschwitz, but the Holocaust as a whole, in its second
        paragraph on page 2, which somebody, might be the source,
        has put a line beside, and the question was really this
        for the moment, what authenticity does it have?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I remember.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving was worried about that.  We now know
        that it was reprinted as a facsimile in a Polish book in
        1960, which is produced by the Warsaw archive which is, no
        doubt, where it is, also again in 1979 and then the last
        document where it was translated from German into Polish,
        and in the last document is the testimony man Kinna

.          P-10

        himself which I think he gave on 2nd July 1964.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is Kinna the signatory of the document?
   MR RAMPTON:  He is the man who wrote the report, yes.  Although
        I cannot possibly read it, I am your Lordship cannot
        either, maybe Mr Irving can, these are the handwritten
        notes of the hearing.  What, in effect, we are told they
        do is to show that Kinna himself verified the contents of
        his report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In what context?
   MR RAMPTON:  He was a witness at a trial.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He was a witness as a prosecution of a -- --
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, so I understood, at Frankfurt.  The last
        document in this little clip is, I think, not connected.
        It is a letter, I think, from Hans Frank to Heinrich
        Himmler dated 23rd June 1942.
   MR IRVING:  It is from Viktor Brach.
   MR RAMPTON:  You are quite right.  It is in the top lefthand
        corner, but I do not know what it says because I have not
        read it yet.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, can I revert to the submission I was
        making about the Kinna document?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, absolutely.  That is what we are on now.
   MR IRVING:  I am not going to challenge the integrity of the
        document because I am not in a position to do so, but I am
        going to deal with that handwritten document which your

.          P-11

        Lordship was just looking at which was the 1963 trial
        where Kinna was asked about the document.  I have
        deciphered the handwriting at the end I will translate it
        very rapidly:  "Says the witness Kinna" ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Pause.  I have not got there yet.
   MR IRVING:  It has a number of numbers on it, and it has an
        upside down page 11 at the top left-hand side corner.  The
        final paragraph, the final two paragraphs, translate as
        follows:  "The witness Kinna confirmed the accuracy of the
        report.  He answered the questions put to him by the
        lawyer Professor Dr Kaul".  K-A-U-L.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am so sorry.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord I am sorry, the clip has not been
        paginated which is annoying.  It is the second of two ----
   MR IRVING:  Two handwritten pages.
   MR RAMPTON:  --- handwritten page.  It has a fax page 10 in the
        top righthand corner.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have it.  I cannot see the upside-down 11.
   MR RAMPTON:  You do not have to struggle with that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, sorry, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  I will repeat it.  "The witness Kinna confirmed the
        accuracy of the report".  This is two paragraphs from the
        bottom, "The witness Kinna" ----
   MR IRVING:  --- "confirmed the accuracy of the report.  He
        answered the questions put to him, the expanding

.          P-12

        questions, the amplifying questions, put to him by the
        lawyer Professor Dr Kaul.  To the correction of the
        witness, no further motions were put", or it could be
        either "correction" or on the swearing of the witness, but
        that is unimportant.  What concerns me is the final
        paragraph:  "The witness was sworn in, and in agreement
        with both parties he was released".
                  I shall draw attention to that.  I do not think
        this is a proper time to draw attention.  The significance
        is the fact that this witness, to what is obviously a
        criminal document, is questioned only as to the accuracy
        of the document and is then released by all the parties,
        including the public prosecutor.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I am not saying you are wrong about
        that.  My reaction to it would be that that is simply what
        happens when a witness is finished giving his evidence.
   MR IRVING:  Yes, except that, since your Lordship has put it
        that way, I would comment on the remarkable fact that here
        is a man who has obviously been engaged in a criminal
        undertaking who could possibly have struck a bargain,
        shall I put it like that, that if he will testify to the
        accuracy of the document, then no further charges will be
        laid against him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So your position on what we are calling the
        Kinna report is that, yes, it is an authentic document.
   MR IRVING:  For the purposes of this trial, my Lord.

.          P-13

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But you query whether it was not the product
        of a plea bargain.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am not challenging the integrity of the
        document.  I cannot because I do not have sufficient
        apparatus to challenge it.  Having read the document, I do
        not think it seriously damages my position in this case.
        So, for the purpose of the case, I am going to ask
        questions on its contents as though it were genuine.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Again I ask where shall we put this?
   MR RAMPTON:  This is an Auschwitz document.  I suggest it goes
        in tab 4 of K2.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR RAMPTON:  Chronologically, we will have declip it and sort
        it out.  I suggest it goes as a lump in wherever the date
        is, 16.12.42.  I cannot help on that because I have not
        got my K2 here.
   MR IRVING:  The final problem, my Lord ----
   MR RAMPTON:  Can I just finish?  I am sorry, I am not trying to
        be discourteous.  I do have a translation as well of the
        Kinna document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is one for the judge and one for Mr Irving.
        He ought to see that in case he does not agree with it.

        (Same handed).

   MR IRVING:  My Lord the fourth matter concerns the document
        which you are familiar with, which is August 1st 1941 from

.          P-14

        Muller to the Einsatzgruppen chiefs about which we spent
        some discussion.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And about the authenticity of it.
   MR IRVING:  A serious problem has arisen because I contacted
        the West German archives, your Lordship will see that the
        second page of that little bundle I gave you, the bundle
        beginning with the words "from Monday", the second page of
        that is headed "translation", does your Lordship have the
   MR IRVING:  A letter from me on February 7th this year to the
        German Federal Archives saying, this is a translation:
        There is a big trial in London.  I need an original copy
        of the following document.  I give the reference number
        which is given by our witnesses in their bundles.
   MR IRVING:  I need it immediately.  Crystal Brown is going to
        be for the next three days only in the witness box.  Could
        you please fax the documents, we need them in facsimile.
        I attach importance if possible to seeing the original
        documents rather than printed versions, as your Lordship
        appreciates. They replied to me yesterday, saying that
        document is not in the file.  And to clarify any
        ambiguities as to what that letter meant, I spoke with
        Dr Lens yesterday of the German Federal Archives in Berlin
        and he said, yes, that means this document is not in the

.          P-15

        file at all, it is full of completely different documents,
        which he then describes.  There may be an innocent
        explanation for this but I would ask, before being
        questioned about this document as I understand the defence
        wish to, that I should be apprised as to where the
        original is and, if possible, shown a facsimile.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have had evidence about that, but I am
        afraid it is not in my mind at the moment.  I think it is
        been around for a long time, the Muller document, has it not?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  It is mentioned in a book, at least this
        I know, by Professor Gerald Fleming, called Hitler und die
        Entlosung.  It is a German book which has also been translated.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is right.
   MR RAMPTON:  It was published in 1982.  I have Mr Irving's copy
        which he kindly gave me.
   MR IRVING:  Loaned you.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, of course.  I have no intention permanently
        to deprive Mr Irving.  The point is this, not what the
        authenticity of the document might be, but that it is in a
        book which Mr Irving has, and that is what I shall be
        cross-examining him about.  I am not going back to history.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but he can rely on this letter.
   MR RAMPTON:  It does not seem that it is now in a particular

.          P-16

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, the file where you would expect to find
        it does not contain it.
   MR RAMPTON:  The reference may be wrong, I do not know.  I will
        try and track it down.  It is a different point.  I am not
        going to cross-examine him about that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is all of this little clip connected with Muller?
   MR IRVING:  No, my Lord.  The final document in that little
        clip is actually a press report of 1983 in which Fleming
        refers to that very document.  I include it purely because
        I found it by accident last night in my files.  I would
        certainly rely on this little episode as being further
        proof of the negligence of the historians adduced as
        expert witnesses by the Defence in this case.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do we know where Fleming got the document from?
   MR IRVING:  No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is he still ----
   MR IRVING:  He is still extant.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  -- alive and well?
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  I spoke to him a few days ago.  He never
        wrote about it in a letter to me in his considerable
        correspondence which I searched.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will leave this clip on one side.
   MR IRVING:  We will be coming back to it in the course of the

.          P-17

        cross-examination of Professor Evans, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I have some photographs of Winnona Brown.
   MR IRVING:  We do not need them until halfway down the
        cross-examination of Professor Evans when we get the
        little ditty.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Any more?
   MR IRVING:  That is my only submission.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship again has probably got something
        I have not.  I knew what the first part of this exchange
        was about, because I know what the document is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have not got any photographs?
   MR RAMPTON:  I have no photographs.
   MR IRVING:  Miss Rogers is sitting on everything.
   MR RAMPTON:  May I enquire through your Lordship where the
        correspondence is with the Bundesarchives, or whatever it is?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have a clip which I think you have
        headed "from Monday August 23rd".
   MR RAMPTON:  We will sort it out later.  I do not want to waste time.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good.  Now shall we have Professor Evans?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.

    (Professor Evans, sworn. Examined by Mr Rampton QC.)

.          P-18

   Q.   Professor Evans, first of all, your full names please?
   A.   Richard John Evans.
   Q.   Have you made a report, a long report, for these
   A.   I have.
   Q.   Have you made some corrections to it?
   A.   Yes, I have.
   Q.   More recently, have you answered some questions in writing
        from Mr Irving?
   A.   I have, yes.
   Q.   So far as those documents contain statements of fact, are
        you as satisfied as you can be that they are accurate?
   A.   I am, yes.

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